SWitch from MH /VHO to T5's

[Gipsy]

The Grotech fixture sure look sexy. Exactly what we need. Specialy the 4x54w t5 + 2x250MH HQI.
Lot to read. Lot to think about.

[Horace]

Originally posted by johns


I was under the impression that DE bulbs were usually a lot brighter than SE bulbs of the same wattage due to the more efficient reflector (Lumenarcs excluded?).
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=741082

Im not sure who started this rumor, but this is patently false. While it is true with some ballast/bulb combos, its not even close to true for all bulbs/ballast combos. If the DE does put out more, its not a significant margin more. Especially not to the effect that your saying that 2 blue+ will look different under DE than they will SE because SE are so much dimmer.

[hahnmeister]

You are both right, Horace and JohnS. Up until recent, SE bulbs in the US were almost all probe start. Probe start ballasts are the most common and cheap ballasts you can get, the ones that you see at the local 'big-box' store in bell pendants. These ballasts are not very efficient, make a humming noise, and often result in premature yellowing of bulbs.

Pulse Start has always been the basic standard for Euro-spec ballasts, where rather than a starter in the bulb like before, multiple surges or pulses are used to arc the gas in the bulb until it starts. These ballasts can start Probes, but often run them at too high of a spec and so the bulbs dont last long.

HQI ballasts are the latest spec, and the highest output. I suppose the M80 ballast is really an adapted MV ballast that can run 250watt bulbs at up to 350watts, but its a higher quality current than regular pulse start. The problem is that when you run probe start bulbs on the HQI, they tend to lose output very fast.

Until recent...bulbs were designed with the most likely ballast in mind. This meant that HQI bulbs, although not always DE, are often made to a higher spec than SE, and SE bulbs are often made with the idea that they might get run on Probe Start ballasts, but DE bulbs are assumed that they never will.

This makes for some odd combos. Some SE bulbs actually have a higher output than their DE versions, say the Aqualine 10,000K, 20,000K, and Aquaconnect 14,000Ks, WHEN THEY FIRST ARE USED. Well, sure...that makes sense...the SE bulb is being overdriven, while the DE/HQI one is not with an HQI ballast. Eventually, the SE bulb gets worn out on the HQI ballast however, and color shifts quickly. The resistance in a DE bulb is greater, so its output might be lower at first compared to a SE on an HQI ballast...but that resistance is what saves it from burning out as fast. The HQI bulb on HQI ballast lasts longer, and in the long run is brighter.

The point is that in the past, DE bulbs were the better because of the ballasts they were usually run with vs. the ballasts SE bulbs are run with. Recently, this doesnt always apply. Many companies have come out with SE bulbs that run at the HQI spec.
So DE alwasy being better than SE...not always true anymore...but in general...it is.

The other thing is the reflectors. DE bulbs are much easier to make much better reflectors for compared to SE. Kinda like VHO vs. T5. The T5 has such a slim profile that its just that easy to make a reflector that more than doubles the light's output. Sure, a good reflector for SE is possible, but only when you go large (lumenmax and lumenarc), and even at that, the larger bulb still blocks out some of its own reflected light.

Unless you have a larger tank (more than 24" front to back) the coverage that SE provides is a little much as well. Because the reflectors are harder to focus w/ SE, the light is harder to direct...so the DE does have a better 'spotlight' right under it. But, if you have a larger tank...say 6'x3'x3'...the SE comes in useful. While DE can be brighter in a smaller tank area, I have seen how a 400wattHQI in a lumenarc3 reflector blows dual 250wattDE/HQI pendants out of the water.

[hahnmeister]

As for fixtures... http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/ has the Sfiligoi fixtures which look interesting as well. Kind of Lumenmax looking for the MH, and 4 rows of T5 with the XR4 series.

Yeah, those Grotech's are sexy...I believe Grotech is ATI's US name or something...I forget. But ATI has that exact same fixture that they sell in Europe.

Here's another 'drool' thread of sexy MH/T5 combo fixtures.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=758164

FWIW, I still would rather have seperate pendants and T5 retros...less money, better results IMO.

[johns]

Im not sure who started this rumor, but this is patently false. While it is true with some ballast/bulb combos, its not even close to true for all bulbs/ballast combos. If the DE does put out more, its not a significant margin more. Especially not to the effect that your saying that 2 blue+ will look different under DE than they will SE because SE are so much dimmer.

Well it's not my intention to spread falsehoods. I tried to qualify my statements by saying that I dont have any direct experience. Plus, I am speaking in generalities, so I'm sure that there will be exceptions.

I just think what I said was true for the most likely sets of combos being used. Also, dont forget about the reflectors. There are some good SE reflectors that may outperform the best DE reflectors (Lumenarc?), but they may not be ideal for the average tank.

To your point, an important mark against DE is the fact that you need to run them with a shield in place. For SE, this would be optional.

[hahnmeister]

Oh...heres the photon site...found it in my favorites folder...
http://www.grotech.de/ENGLISH/index....haengeleuchten

[horkn]

Originally posted by Gipsy
So for my 18" wide 150 gallon i should go with 6 tubes?

yeah, if you went all t5ho.

this is really up to you JD. you could easily light it merely with t5ho, but then no shimmer lines (practically)

you could do mh and t5ho, but ,depending on if you have 2 or 1 centerbrace, then that limits you on what you can do for MH. i think you have 2 braces right? then you almost cant do only 2 MH, and would need 3 MH. also, depemdig on the MH reflectors, you may have a problem, fitting 4 t5bulbs in there with your MH may be tough.

i really think on shallower tanks, t5ho is too much, esp the par king ge 6500k like i have on my tank. however, my next tank is a 90, so the 24" height will be beneficial for using t5ho and mh

[horkn]

you know, those grotech reflectors for t5ho look like the aqualux sold t5ho reflectors like I have. they are made in germany, and there are no ATI reflectors in the US....


i think that 2x250 grotek with 4x54 of t5ho would do quite wel on that 150, pending the MH are not directly over your braces...

that's a problem i am working around for my new tank

[Horace]

Originally posted by johns
Im not sure who started this rumor, but this is patently false. While it is true with some ballast/bulb combos, its not even close to true for all bulbs/ballast combos. If the DE does put out more, its not a significant margin more. Especially not to the effect that your saying that 2 blue+ will look different under DE than they will SE because SE are so much dimmer.

Well it's not my intention to spread falsehoods. I tried to qualify my statements by saying that I dont have any direct experience. Plus, I am speaking in generalities, so I'm sure that there will be exceptions.

I just think what I said was true for the most likely sets of combos being used. Also, dont forget about the reflectors. There are some good SE reflectors that may outperform the best DE reflectors (Lumenarc?), but they may not be ideal for the average tank.

To your point, an important mark against DE is the fact that you need to run them with a shield in place. For SE, this would be optional.

you hit the nail on the head. The shield is a big detractor. That absorbs a significant amount of PAR which brings them right inline with the SE levels of PAR. If you were to run them w/out a shield, yes they would be quite a bit more PAR. But unless you want fried corals, a shield is a necessity

[hahnmeister]

If you look at the ATI fixtures they look just like the grotechs... or maybe I am thinking Aquaconnects...oh well...all good fixtures to check out.

[horkn]

i see that....

[Gipsy]

Let me think about it. As got some connection in metal fab.... Could make something like that for a lot less. Love, love the Soleset design.

[johns]

The soleset is nice. But, although it used 4 T5 bulbs, it's still just a single line of bulbs on each side. The Infinity XR4 is more like it, with 4 actual rows of T5.

[Gipsy]

Anybosy know those :

http://www.customaquatic.com/customa...2Dsy&offset=15


Look at the 72 inch Ocean light fixture.
Good , soso, bad?????

[horkn]

JD, that unit doesnt appear to have good reflectors....

if you want to save some $$, the the new wave units(2) form seedsetc.com, and have your connection fab up an aluminum housing for them..

[hahnmeister]

I would second the new wave in the past, but SLS lied to me. They said that the reflectors (and ballasts) on the new wave and the tek were the same, but they arent. The new wave has 3-bends on the reflectors, and the tek has 5+. The tek is a better reflector for sure. Considering the seeds etc prices (or one or two that you can even find for less on ebay from time to time), the tek isnt that expensive anymore anyways.

If you can fab up an aluminum housing, I have a design for you that will work better. Its pretty much a cross between the Icecap setup shown here... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2

And an Aquaconnect Lumimaster (sold in Europe). Links to pics here...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=771872

You buy/make the box, put in your own ballast, your own waterproof endcaps, and IC SLR reflectors and you end up with one of the most functional fixtures possible. I can email it to you if you are interested JD.

Here are pics of the ATI fixtures BTW...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=755812

[hahnmeister]

Oh, and if you read those other threads, where I get on ASH at IC for not making their own fixture, just so you know, SLS does make one, and you can even swap out the reflectors for IC SLRs and enc up with a nice setup...pretty much exactly what I was asking for from them, but from SLS...

http://www.reefgeek.com/products/cat...ng/104931.html

[Gipsy]

Jon,
The last link to reefgeek is prety nice : easy that the key word. I'll need 2 of those, i could even get the deal with bulb for $169, so x2 = $338
Also i'll need 3 HQI pendant. Any recommendation?
I was thinking :
PFO horizontal
Reef optics III plus
or
Coral Vue
I selecting those because they can be purchase without ballast.
We are looking at a total of roughly $750 with bulds.
Any Advice?????

[hahnmeister]

3 of the halides? So perhaps 150s or 250s? I suppose PFO has the nicest ones...they are all I use. The RO3s are nice too...cant really go wrong with either one.

Whats with the sudden change of heart w/ respect to the DE bulbs? I thought you and Julie were against that (oh, and tell her that I thank her for the compliment earlier, and when I grad from engineering w/ my masters I might be looking for a job...lol). Somehing about the socket's on DE bulbs arcing and fusing the bulb to the socket? Or are SE bulbs exploding more of a concern



I posted a pic of the T5 fixture I was designing in my gallery. I was thinking JD might make one 60" long, and 18" wide, and not only would he have enough room for 4-8 T5s, but with 4 T5s he would still have 6" left over between for a spider light mogul reflector. The thing I like is the extra space above the bulbs allows for ballasts, fans, and even a power strip (you could mount your tunzes w/ all the electronics in the hood for less clutter). If you get them made, let me know, I would like one as well. Its pretty much the best features from every fixture I have seen.

[hahnmeister]

delete

[Gipsy]

You're right i could go with the SE buld too.
Actualy i prefere those myself. I realy like the idea of a pendant more that a spider reflactor type of stuff, nicer, cleaner, safer...
For the T5 I'm just gathering my thought. How much cost what...
I know peoples that can build anything, true, but they don't work for free and $350 that go pretty fast. So it could be that it's cheaper to buy the fixture that to make it. I don't know yet.
I'm kind in a brainstorm mode right now.

[hahnmeister]

The only hitch I see with the SLS 2-bulb units at geek is that the spacing beteen the bulbs looks like its only enough to fit tek reflectors on. As it has been said before, these arent the best, and corrode over time. IC doesnt seem to make a 60" reflector, and so the best option would be to use the aqualuxlighting reflectors, but they are an inch wider than the tek, at 3". I dont think they would fit the SLS 2-bulb unit.

The ones that IC made were for a custom job, but they said they had a few left over if i was interested in buying just the box. That would work better, as the bulbs are prolly spaced out better...but I dont think they made any 5' units.

Thats why I was thinking about having one made/ doing it myself.

That design I posted would be dead easy to have made up fast. I dont know that $350 or whatever is necessary from a professional. Its pretty much just a box with a couple extra rails for the endcaps. I was going to try making it by bending my own 5" Al strip for the sides, and simply bolting/riveting the top and rails in. Then just take it some place to have them powder coat & bake it all over with silver.

[Gipsy]

FYI powder coat silver is expensive and custom. For exemple I will not be suprise that to PC you box a powder coat place ask around $200 if they have to set the line for it. They don't run it every day. We do a lot of silver and it's always a custom job.
If you can live with black you will save a lot, it's a color that they run all the time. At work we use Hartfordfinishing
http://www.hadc.org/industry/hartford.htm
Also keep in mind that 95% of what they do is steel, it maybe so different seting (temp, flow...) for alum. I'm not sure.

[hahnmeister]

But its just soooo purdy...lol. Or, I suppose, depending on how the metal looks, a simple clear coat or enamel would be fine. Heck, $200 for powder coating...might as well get it porcelain coated...then you can use steel wool when you get mineral deposits!

Alright...time for me to get downstairs and make some Aragacrete molds!!! Happy brainstorming JD!

[horkn]

200 for that hood to be powdercoated? crack i tell ya..


I know of a place in waukesha that will powdercoat anything cheaply, and any color.


i was quoted 50 bucks for any color on my 2 motorcycle wheels. a whole hood shouldnt be any more than that.

and why IC doesnt make 5 footer reflectors is still BS. yes, the aqualux sold CDR's are a little wider at 3" but, they mount better due to plastic clips (that julie can assuredly get from work) and not powdercoated low quality SS that ic uses for their clips that will eventually chip due to the powdercoat not being meant for items that flex...