I am ready to give up and leave the hobby over this.

[asmujica]

Well, having a biowheel on a reef tank is not the best of ideas. It will generate tons of nitrates that could be avoided. Can you remove all that area and move your skimmer there?

That and the idea h20cooled provided should help reduce or eliminate the bubbles altogether. Also is the water coming into the sump splashing down?

[Horace]

Well one thing that causes micro bubbles in my tank is when the water gets low enough in the pump chamber so there is a "waterfall" into the last chamber. This waterfall pushes air bubbles down to the pump and causes it to suck in air and thus tons of micro bubbles are the result. To correct this problem, I simply installed an auto topoff that keeps the water just a hair below the top of the baffle so there is no waterfall. This makes a HUGE difference. I also use a filtersock on the overflow drain, but I dont think it would be an issue anyway. The bubbles surface before making it to the last chamber anyway.


As a side note, if you are using a submersable pump, there is NO WAY the pump is pulling air via the intake piping unless its the situation I am describing above, or you have TONS of microbubbles flowing into the last chamber. The only place air can get in is on the INTAKE side of any pump. This often occurs when your using an external pump and have a leak in there. you would never know because it is under vacuum and you wont see a water leak. If there is a leak in any of the output side, you WILL see a water leak. So if you using a mag and its fully submerged, there is no way in hell your pump or your plumbing is the cause.

[derick75]

i am using a auto top off, i guess it is the sump

[derick75]

like i said in previous post, the water in the sump is very calm but that is not to say there are still micrbubbles

[Horace]

Have you tried raising the level of water in the sump? If my auto top off level is set too low the same thing happens....

[Mike.B]

Man can we see some pictures, it would really help us to see what your setup is like and what you need to change.

[derick75]

i posted the pics on page 1 here it is again the water level in the sump is as high as possible sump pics

[DiViNeLeFT]

one thing to consider... a lot of people will put a small hole in their return plumbing just under the water surface in the display so that incase of a power outage it will break the syphon and prevent water from back syphoning into the sump. i dont know if this happens or not but if you have the back syphon hole to close to the surface could it be acting like a venturi and sucking air in right before it enters the display??

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally posted by arozz7
I tried reducing the return pump down some and that seems to have worked. No more microbubbles. It appears I was having too much flow through the sump. Just wanted to let everyone know that it worked for me.....Thanks!!!!

Your welcome, Dude!! Glad I could help

[derick75]

DiViNeLeFT i thought of that as well i have tried elbows with and with out siphon holes same thing bubbles

[Mike.B]

Aww sorry man I didnt see that link at the end.

The pump setup is definetly not the problem, It's low enough in that sump that it will not suck bubbles from the top of the sump.

So when the skimmers off the micro bubbles continue right?

If so then when you throttle the return pump to 20%, do they still exist?

How many holes in your overflow box do you have?


If your absolutely hell bent on running high flow through your sump you can, but you need to completely remove bubbles coming from your overflow. Its only possible though with atleast 2 holes in your overflow.

[Mike.B]

K I just went back and looked at your pictures you do have two holes, what are they currently being used for?

[derick75]

yes when the skimmer if off i still have the bubbles it makes no difference. i have 1 3/4" hole for the return and 1 1" hole
for the intake. It is the standard megaflow tank. I have throttled down the flow to about 300gph and the bubbles are there still returing from the loc line just not as fast, as you see in the pictures i have the loc line totaly under water which i hate but I tried that just to see if there was air coming into the locline because some of the line is above the water surface but again it made no difference.

[derick75]

the only thing that makes sence to me is that the sump is to small although i can not visually see any bubbles , i guess there are a few in the sump that are traviling to the pump and mulitiplying times 1000. i have tried the mag7 filter over the pump intake and a 100 micron and a 50 micron sock does absoutley nothing...i have a 20 gallon high tank but that is 24 inches long and the tidepool is 26 i dont know if that would help or not.

[Mike.B]

Alright, then I would definetly say the bubbles are coming from the overflow.

You really have 2 options, new sump with more baffles, or plumb your tank differently.

Heres how I would plumb it, doing it this way will make it so that you have no bubbles whatsoever entering the sump(no joke). Both holes are going to be used for drain holes, 1 main, 1 backup in case the main gets clogged. It is really important that you use both for the drain and not just one. Use the 3/4" hole for your main drain, this will be placed about half way up the overflow with a strainer on it to keep snails out. Your backup drain(1") will be at the top of the overflow, but at the bottom of the teeth.

Now that the overflow box is plumbed, heres what you do under the tank. Your backup will go directly into the sump, underneath the waterline. Your main drain 3/4" will have a valve on it, gate valve preferably but a ball valve will do. The 3/4" line after the valve goes into the sump beneath the waterline.

Now what your going to do is with the gate valve restrict the water going into the sump, what your trying to do is set the the water level in the overflow box, your trying to make it as close to the top of the overflow box as possible without it using the backup drain, this will make the 3/4" line take no bubbles to the sump, this is why a gate valve makes it much easier.

I'll post some pictures if your still interested, but trust me on this it will silence your overflow box and it wont bring any bubbles to the sump.

As for the return you will have to run it behind the tank.

[slavearm]

I battled the problem for about 2 months... wanna know how I fixed it?


1st Way.. (don't do this do the next one)
I put vaseline on every #$%^ plumbing joint I could find... and wow suddenly no more bubbles. I can almost guarentee that the problem is you are creating a venturi somewhere.

2nd Way (this is the permanent fix)
Don't bother with the first way, just do this... Start at the top, and get some aquarium safe silicone and go over EVERY joint in your return plumbing. Get a nice thick seal... I bet your bubble issue goes away.

I talked to all the experts as well... blah blah blah. Hope this helps you.

Slavearm

[tran383]

slavearm-

did you put the silicon on the unions/bulkheads also? I am facing the exact same problem with the micobubbles but I've been managing to get by by throttling my pump back half way, however I heard this kills the pump. i've tried a 100 micron sock so that there is zero bubbles, just smooth water flow from left to right and i still get microbubbles so I have to throttle back.

I am about to take you advice on the siliconing the joints since i suspect it could be a air leak as well, but I wasn't sure if you siliconed every single joint. thanks.

[derick75]

i dont think i have a air leak i had a guy come down and use some leak detector solution he said the smallest amount of air would produce bubbles with the solution he checked every connection and found nothing all my connections are secure with hose clamps and silicone grease

[Mike.B]

Siliconing joints is just a bandaid on a problem, you shouldnt have any leaks to begin with just using primer and pvc cement.

[derick75]

i am thinking the next thing i will do is tear apart the tidepool remove the drawers install some glass baffels and go back to the mag 7 now for the return line can i keep the hose under the water to prevent the noise or will i have some kind of revers siphon or something

[Mike.B]

Which hose would be under water?

If your talikng return line then yes it will siphon back to however far down your return line goes.

Use a siphon break hole like this

[derick75]

no i am talking about the return line from the overflow into the sump

[Yam]

This leak detector solution would not work in this situation. You are possibly sucking air in through a poor joint. If this is the case, how would air also come out of the same joint (to form a bubble)? Only if you pressurized the pvc with air would the solution work.
To get rid of microbubbles:

Get a bigger sump.
Use filter socks on your return.
Use multiple returns with multiple filter socks. (Decreasing the velocity of the water will reduce the microbubbles.)
Ensure that all of the loc line parts are under water.

[slavearm]

Originally posted by derick75
i dont think i have a air leak i had a guy come down and use some leak detector solution he said the smallest amount of air would produce bubbles with the solution he checked every connection and found nothing all my connections are secure with hose clamps and silicone grease

LOL I tried the same dang thing. You know what... when it is SUCKING in air not blowing out... there are no bubbles. The moving water makes the leak act like a venturi, not a pressurized tire.

[slavearm]

Originally posted by subzero420
Siliconing joints is just a bandaid on a problem, you shouldnt have any leaks to begin with just using primer and pvc cement.

I can assure you after over a year, it is not a bandaid, but a fix. Sure, you shouldn't have leaks that require silicone in the first place, but faced with replumbing the whole thing and never knowing, or throwing up some silicone for a person about to leave the hobby... I say go silicone.

In the end, Fenner was right... he said, "Shane, you have a venturi somewhere in your system, just go find it, and good luck."