ich in reef tank - Page 2

ACBlinky · 10/14/2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Freed
It sounds as if that would be a waste of time to begin with. You can only beat a dead horse so many times until won't listen.

Trust me, it's not a waste. It took me a long time to understand just how important proper quarantine procedures are, and now I'm dealing with the consequences of not listening in the first place, but part of what helped drill it into my thick skull was reading your posts.

Mike de Leon · 10/14/2006, 07:17 PM

Hey ACBlinky, where are you exactly in Toronto? I work there everyday...
Where do you get your livestock? I have a couple of really good suppliers.

scubareef · 10/14/2006, 07:49 PM

Already started the Ruby Reef. If it does not work will try the stop parasite. I think it is made by chem marin, right?

coraladdict · 10/14/2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike de Leon
Freed,
If you think they are all making a big mistake why don't you step in and help out? Isn't this what it's all about?
Direct them to the proper threads for enlightenment......
Friendly advice.

Well we all know what the advice are,hypo,hypo,and hypo...
not saying it isn't good I just said that it's not 100% proof. If you can find a thread about hypo. , they say ick can survive at very low salinity 1,010 for weeks so...
The garlic and or medication approach is not 100% proof either.I can tell you that a very popular member on this board from Europe suggested the garlic approach .
Like I said the hypo would be a viable approach to consider but when it comes down to disrupting the whole reef to catch the fish, I'm not so sure you ain't causing other kinds of stress to the reef as a whole unless you just have a few rocks imo.

regards

Freed · 10/14/2006, 08:47 PM

ACBlinky, I am glad at least one person in this thread(you) took the time to listen to make sure you don't introduce ich into your tank ever again. And yes people, it is possible to keep ich from entering your tank. That misinformation about "every tank has ich" or "all fish have ich and you can never be free of it" is a big load of horse manure. Numerous pros and well known biologists/specialists in the field of marine biology/fish diseases have studied ich and have proven that it can be kept from being introduced into a salt tank. They have also PROVEN that it can be killed in hypo. Those well "known posters" whom you speak of that say it is everywhere always or cannot be killed do not know what they are talking about and are only speculating.

barjam · 10/14/2006, 09:23 PM

Freed, do you hypo or copper all new fish while you are in QT?

Roland Jacques · 10/14/2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Freed
It sounds as if that would be a waste of time to begin with. You can only beat a dead horse so many times until won't listen.

These is my First time looking into this subject on RC if you have some good info could you share it? or point us in the right direction?

Freed · 10/14/2006, 11:30 PM

I hypo for at least 4-6 weeks if I see ich and as a preventative just to make sure I do not introduce it into my tank.

scubareef · 10/15/2006, 10:54 AM

Would an ultraviolet sterilizer end the problem? I am considering an aqua ultraviolet.

Freed · 10/15/2006, 05:16 PM

No! It may kill some of the possible thousands of trophants(?) floating in the water column but will not do a thing to the little guys that land on the substrate, live rock, etc., that will eventually end up reattaching to the fish after a few days/week to start munching on them again.

barjam · 10/15/2006, 08:42 PM

Freed, that is interesting. Quite a bit of the advice on RC mentions a 6 week (or so) quarantine without mention of hypo. I really don't see how that would work out very well (something is better than nothing I guess).

Roland Jacques, I suggest doing a google search on RC for more tips. If you can get the RC search to work (rarely does for me) you can go that route as well.

To do a google search of RC type:

site:www.reefcentral.com whatever you wanted to search on

in the search box.

The advice will lead you to:

Always quarantine (4-6 weeks).

If you do get ich, remove all fish and leave the tank fallow (without fish) for 4-6 weeks from the last time you saw visible signs of ich. Treat your fish with hypo or copper with most people suggesting the use of hypo.

You will also read that there is no reef safe ich cure and no cure that is reef safe. Some of the commercial products were tested (on Xenia) and outright killed it, others weakened it a great deal. One did nothing but I forget which one that was and most people feel that particular product doesn't work anyhow.

I may have missed something with that brief synopsis, so please do look into it more.

acwilson · 10/15/2006, 10:07 PM

How stressful is 4-6 weeks of hyposalinity on a fish?
Also, do you quarantine coral as well? if yes, do you use hypo on them too?

Freed · 10/15/2006, 10:11 PM

Yes, you really should QT anything WET that you plan on putting in your main tank and No, do not do hypo on coral as the coral will die as well as live rock or inverts if hypo is performed on them. There is no need to QT these as any ich that may come in with the coral, etc., will die without fish to feed off of. It has been shown and I have also witnessed that hypo on a fish is not stressful. Fish can live for extended periods of time with no issues in hypo.

Roland Jacques · 10/15/2006, 10:39 PM

so by Hypo you mean just to lower ther salinity to .010 gravity for 6 weeks. thats it? how long do you take to acclamate them.

Freed · 10/16/2006, 12:04 AM

Hypo is just below that at 1.009 but for 4-6 weeks after the very last spot of ich is seen on the fish. You can drop the salinity to hypo in just a couple of days but to raise it take a bit longer.

natman2 · 10/16/2006, 05:15 AM

Since my return to the hobby after a long absence I have come to realize, with the help of people like Freed and ACB, that many of my old school beliefs were just plain wrong.

Predominate among these beliefs was that all tanks had parasites to one degree or another and all fish carried it. IMO this belief is perpetuated by LFS that are unable to maintain parasite free holding tanks.

After losing some fish I finally realized something had to be done. My tank did contain some established fish that were able to ward off infestation but undoubtedly harboured low level non lethal infections that guaranteed difficult introduction of new specimens, the continued life cycle of the parasite and presented a "ticking time bomb" for even the established fish with any type of stress event likely to set off that bomb.

Finally I invested in a 20g QT tank a sponge filter and a refractometer. An investment of less than 100 dollars and less than the price of the specimens I lost.

My reef was allowed to go fish less for a month. I then purchased a Scopas tang which was put into QT. Within a day it was displaying signs of parasites (petco fish) and hypo was performed with success. This amounted to a 8 week fallow period for my reef. Scopas is now in my reef and doing quite well and I believe my reef to be parasite free.

You can trust me when I say my mind has been changed from those old school beliefs and NOTHING not even rock will ever go into my display without a QT period.

IMO these methods/procedures are the only ones that can be trusted to truly work.

ronjeremy · 10/16/2006, 07:43 AM

4-6 weeks is what some people go by, but the parasite can actually survive that..i go 6-8 weeks to be sure....make sure to keep an eye on your ph during hypo...also, the drop in salinity will likely affect your biological filter...keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites

ronjeremy · 10/16/2006, 07:43 AM

oops..double post

barjam · 10/16/2006, 07:57 AM

natman2, did you QT without hypo? It is my opinion QT without hypo or copper (on fish) is little better than no QT at all (in regards to ich).

As far as my post I was just stating what the common practices are, not what my opinions of said practices are. I agree that 6 weeks is not enough. I also think that as far as the hobby goes hypo is a tempoary fix and eventually we will have ich (already seen in parts of asia) that will be resiliant to hypo.

Roland Jacques: You can go down relatively quickly, but you must go up very slowly.

As far as hypo and fish health goes, it is relatively benign and much easier on the fish than copper but it isn't without risk. Apparently hypo isn't the best thing for kidneys (I think it was). I don't have the research in front of me right now but it is worth reading up on.

ronjeremy · 10/16/2006, 08:05 AM

long term hypo can be bad for the kidneys..the fish can actually stay in hypo for a few months without kidney damage

northbay-reefer · 10/16/2006, 11:29 AM

I have used "no-ick" in my reef and it shows no ill effect on my corals. The fishes are healthy now. Also I just installed a UV to keep it from coming back.

Now I need a QT tank

Slickdonkey · 10/16/2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acwilson
How stressful is 4-6 weeks of hyposalinity on a fish?
Also, do you quarantine coral as well? if yes, do you use hypo on them too?

IMO hypo is not stressful at all to fish. From what I've read and observed it actually has just the opposite effect.

I've had two double-saddle butterflies in hypo for 2.5 months now. They're doing great. Has anyone ever bought a butterfly that *didn't* have ich?

ronjeremy · 10/16/2006, 02:48 PM

i have 2 hippos in qt that have been in hypo conditions for 3-4 months..they are about to come out..they got a secondary infection, and then i reinfected the tank with ich by doing something stupid

Freed · 10/16/2006, 03:23 PM

What did you do, stupid?

ronjeremy · 10/16/2006, 04:42 PM

i added some fish to the qt in an emergency..they may not have re-infected it, but i don't take chances w/ ich..

10/14/2006, 07:17 PM	#27
Mike de Leon Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ont. Canada Posts: 2,308	Hey ACBlinky, where are you exactly in Toronto? I work there everyday... Where do you get your livestock? I have a couple of really good suppliers. __________________ Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.. Current Tank Info: 180 Gallon, 3 G4 Radions

10/14/2006, 08:47 PM	#30
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	ACBlinky, I am glad at least one person in this thread(you) took the time to listen to make sure you don't introduce ich into your tank ever again. And yes people, it is possible to keep ich from entering your tank. That misinformation about "every tank has ich" or "all fish have ich and you can never be free of it" is a big load of horse manure. Numerous pros and well known biologists/specialists in the field of marine biology/fish diseases have studied ich and have proven that it can be kept from being introduced into a salt tank. They have also PROVEN that it can be killed in hypo. Those well "known posters" whom you speak of that say it is everywhere always or cannot be killed do not know what they are talking about and are only speculating. __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT

10/14/2006, 11:30 PM	#33
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	I hypo for at least 4-6 weeks if I see ich and as a preventative just to make sure I do not introduce it into my tank. __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT

10/15/2006, 05:16 PM	#35
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	No! It may kill some of the possible thousands of trophants(?) floating in the water column but will not do a thing to the little guys that land on the substrate, live rock, etc., that will eventually end up reattaching to the fish after a few days/week to start munching on them again. __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT

10/15/2006, 10:07 PM	#37
acwilson Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 118	How stressful is 4-6 weeks of hyposalinity on a fish? Also, do you quarantine coral as well? if yes, do you use hypo on them too? __________________ -ACW

10/14/2006, 07:49 PM	#28
scubareef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 29	Already started the Ruby Reef. If it does not work will try the stop parasite. I think it is made by chem marin, right?

10/14/2006, 09:23 PM	#31
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	Freed, do you hypo or copper all new fish while you are in QT?

10/15/2006, 10:54 AM	#34
scubareef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 29	Would an ultraviolet sterilizer end the problem? I am considering an aqua ultraviolet.

10/15/2006, 08:42 PM	#36
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	Freed, that is interesting. Quite a bit of the advice on RC mentions a 6 week (or so) quarantine without mention of hypo. I really don't see how that would work out very well (something is better than nothing I guess). Roland Jacques, I suggest doing a google search on RC for more tips. If you can get the RC search to work (rarely does for me) you can go that route as well. To do a google search of RC type: site:www.reefcentral.com whatever you wanted to search on in the search box. The advice will lead you to: Always quarantine (4-6 weeks). If you do get ich, remove all fish and leave the tank fallow (without fish) for 4-6 weeks from the last time you saw visible signs of ich. Treat your fish with hypo or copper with most people suggesting the use of hypo. You will also read that there is no reef safe ich cure and no cure that is reef safe. Some of the commercial products were tested (on Xenia) and outright killed it, others weakened it a great deal. One did nothing but I forget which one that was and most people feel that particular product doesn't work anyhow. I may have missed something with that brief synopsis, so please do look into it more.

10/15/2006, 10:11 PM	#38
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	Yes, you really should QT anything WET that you plan on putting in your main tank and No, do not do hypo on coral as the coral will die as well as live rock or inverts if hypo is performed on them. There is no need to QT these as any ich that may come in with the coral, etc., will die without fish to feed off of. It has been shown and I have also witnessed that hypo on a fish is not stressful. Fish can live for extended periods of time with no issues in hypo. __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT Last edited by Freed; 10/15/2006 at 10:23 PM.

10/15/2006, 10:39 PM	#39
Roland Jacques Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 2,848	so by Hypo you mean just to lower ther salinity to .010 gravity for 6 weeks. thats it? how long do you take to acclamate them. __________________ Roland

10/16/2006, 12:04 AM	#40
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	Hypo is just below that at 1.009 but for 4-6 weeks after the very last spot of ich is seen on the fish. You can drop the salinity to hypo in just a couple of days but to raise it take a bit longer. __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT

10/16/2006, 05:15 AM	#41
natman2 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: sarasota Posts: 17	Since my return to the hobby after a long absence I have come to realize, with the help of people like Freed and ACB, that many of my old school beliefs were just plain wrong. Predominate among these beliefs was that all tanks had parasites to one degree or another and all fish carried it. IMO this belief is perpetuated by LFS that are unable to maintain parasite free holding tanks. After losing some fish I finally realized something had to be done. My tank did contain some established fish that were able to ward off infestation but undoubtedly harboured low level non lethal infections that guaranteed difficult introduction of new specimens, the continued life cycle of the parasite and presented a "ticking time bomb" for even the established fish with any type of stress event likely to set off that bomb. Finally I invested in a 20g QT tank a sponge filter and a refractometer. An investment of less than 100 dollars and less than the price of the specimens I lost. My reef was allowed to go fish less for a month. I then purchased a Scopas tang which was put into QT. Within a day it was displaying signs of parasites (petco fish) and hypo was performed with success. This amounted to a 8 week fallow period for my reef. Scopas is now in my reef and doing quite well and I believe my reef to be parasite free. You can trust me when I say my mind has been changed from those old school beliefs and NOTHING not even rock will ever go into my display without a QT period. IMO these methods/procedures are the only ones that can be trusted to truly work.

10/16/2006, 07:43 AM	#42
ronjeremy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Destin ,Fl Posts: 431	4-6 weeks is what some people go by, but the parasite can actually survive that..i go 6-8 weeks to be sure....make sure to keep an eye on your ph during hypo...also, the drop in salinity will likely affect your biological filter...keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites

10/16/2006, 07:57 AM	#44
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	natman2, did you QT without hypo? It is my opinion QT without hypo or copper (on fish) is little better than no QT at all (in regards to ich). As far as my post I was just stating what the common practices are, not what my opinions of said practices are. I agree that 6 weeks is not enough. I also think that as far as the hobby goes hypo is a tempoary fix and eventually we will have ich (already seen in parts of asia) that will be resiliant to hypo. Roland Jacques: You can go down relatively quickly, but you must go up very slowly. As far as hypo and fish health goes, it is relatively benign and much easier on the fish than copper but it isn't without risk. Apparently hypo isn't the best thing for kidneys (I think it was). I don't have the research in front of me right now but it is worth reading up on.

10/16/2006, 08:05 AM	#45
ronjeremy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Destin ,Fl Posts: 431	long term hypo can be bad for the kidneys..the fish can actually stay in hypo for a few months without kidney damage

10/16/2006, 11:29 AM	#46
northbay-reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wine country Posts: 4,831	I have used "no-ick" in my reef and it shows no ill effect on my corals. The fishes are healthy now. Also I just installed a UV to keep it from coming back. Now I need a QT tank __________________ go BIG or go home Current Tank Info: Tankless :D

10/16/2006, 02:48 PM	#48
ronjeremy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Destin ,Fl Posts: 431	i have 2 hippos in qt that have been in hypo conditions for 3-4 months..they are about to come out..they got a secondary infection, and then i reinfected the tank with ich by doing something stupid

10/16/2006, 03:23 PM	#49
Freed It's what it's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: 41° 2' 45" N 85° 8' 43" W Posts: 7,579	What did you do, stupid? __________________ Freed Current Tank Info: 180gal(1120 watts of MH/VHO light), 60gal "sump", Deltec 601 calcium reactor, Euro Reef CS8-3+ skimmer, 20 gallon QT

10/16/2006, 04:42 PM	#50
ronjeremy Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Destin ,Fl Posts: 431	i added some fish to the qt in an emergency..they may not have re-infected it, but i don't take chances w/ ich..