Puffy is dead..getting po-ed now. Need to vent before I scream! - Page 2

Freed · 10/30/2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by courtneyclv
My tank was fallow for 4 weeks, as suggested to me and all that was in there was a firefish.

And I own page numero deux. Yeah, baby!! Get in my bellyyyy!!!

BTTRFLYGRL · 10/30/2006, 06:58 PM

Ich is a parasite it cannot suddenly reappear to attack stressed out fish if it is not in the tank..I don't know what info you are reading on ich but, but that info is wrong.
Its hard to get anything straight on these sites when all you hear is conflicting information from other hobbyist.
I would advise you to remove that Firefish...As Freed said, 'fallow' means 'empty'..It means NO fish.
Slow yourself down. Buy some books to read. Bob Fenners 'The conscientious Marine Aquarist' ,' Edward Noga Disease diagnosis and treatment 'are good books to have. Read and research before restocking your tank. Quarantine your new fish for 4 weeks [preferably one at a time] then if the fish is sick, it will not effect the other fish . Nothing good in this hobby happens fast. You cannot expect success by throwing a bunch of fish in the tank at once...that will only lead to disaster.
It may take a little longer, but its nice when you can enjoy your healthy fish...
Good luck to you

courtneyclv · 10/30/2006, 07:06 PM

I had another member tell me this....
If the ich does not 'attach' to the fish then no need to take it out. The ich will still die because it is not using that one fish as a host.

But now I know..I will attempt to remove the firefish this week. Freed, I like your 'interests'. If you want, please PM me and I will do ANYTHING you tell me to keep ich out of my tank! Be my mentor!

Ursus · 10/30/2006, 07:45 PM

A fish can carry ich without showing any obvious symptoms of the parasite. However, when a fish becomes stressed, they are more likely to 'break out.'

I would say run the display fallow (that firefish has got to go to qt some how) and do hyposalinity in the QT. Run some carbon in the qt to remove as much copper as possible. After 6 weeks you should be golden. Just be sure to qt all new arrivals before introducing them to the display.

bureau13 · 10/31/2006, 12:46 PM

For what its worth, to give a counterpoint on the whole "Don't put copper in the new fish QT" opinion...I use Cupramine in my QT with all new fish. I have not seen any obvious problems resulting in it. In my opinion, putting new fish in QT without treating them is asking for trouble...given that everyone seems to agree that some fish can have a small ich infestation that you can't really see, if you get one of those fish in your QT and don't treat, then you will be adding the parasite to your display, and if you have any sensitive fish in there, they are likely to get it.

I also prefer Cupramine to hypo because it is also a treatment for velvet, which I have had, and which is much less fun than ich.

jds

Ocicat · 10/31/2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bureau13
For what its worth, to give a counterpoint on the whole "Don't put copper in the new fish QT" opinion...I use Cupramine in my QT with all new fish. I have not seen any obvious problems resulting in it. In my opinion, putting new fish in QT without treating them is asking for trouble...given that everyone seems to agree that some fish can have a small ich infestation that you can't really see, if you get one of those fish in your QT and don't treat, then you will be adding the parasite to your display, and if you have any sensitive fish in there, they are likely to get it.

I also prefer Cupramine to hypo because it is also a treatment for velvet, which I have had, and which is much less fun than ich.

jds

My concern with copper (besides that it can stress/weaken fish) is this: Once you have used copper in your QT tank, won't you have to set up a completely separate QT to use for corals/inverts?

Conceyted · 10/31/2006, 02:16 PM

it is a highly debated issue but from what I gathered, many people clean out and reuse equipment and tanks that once housed copper medications. there seems to be a myth floating around that copper cannot be removed from tanks even in cleansing.

Shooter7 · 10/31/2006, 02:20 PM

Where are these "many people" and who decided it was a myth? Just curious.

mbbuna · 10/31/2006, 02:34 PM

Randys thoughts on copper

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=copper

IMO ich is present on most fish, stress and poor water conditions weaken the fish and then ich can get a foot hold.

find out whats causing the stress and you wont have problems.

Conceyted · 10/31/2006, 02:38 PM

the many people I speak of are throughout the site. rather than like you to the hundreds of threads where this is discussed, go to the site search and type in copper contamination or simply copper myth.

bureau13 · 10/31/2006, 02:53 PM

Well, I personally would not risk using my QT for inverts once its had copper in it. I've got a couple 10 gallon tanks lying around, I would just use one of those. Even if I didn't...what do they cost new? $20? Its just not worth the risk.

The problem with accepting a small level of ich in your tank, and then eliminating whatever stress is causing them the fish to be more susceptible to it, is you sometimes cannot control sudden stressors. What if you have a power outtage and your temp spikes? What if you add another fish who happens to be a jerk, and you can't immediately get him out? There are any number of things that can pop up and cause stress, and then suddenly some of your fish start showing ich again.

jds

Conceyted · 10/31/2006, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bureau13
Well, I personally would not risk using my QT for inverts once its had copper in it. I've got a couple 10 gallon tanks lying around, I would just use one of those. Even if I didn't...what do they cost new? $20? Its just not worth the risk.

The problem with accepting a small level of ich in your tank, and then eliminating whatever stress is causing them the fish to be more susceptible to it, is you sometimes cannot control sudden stressors. What if you have a power outtage and your temp spikes? What if you add another fish who happens to be a jerk, and you can't immediately get him out? There are any number of things that can pop up and cause stress, and then suddenly some of your fish start showing ich again.

jds

I agree with you in every aspect of this post. it is simply unacceptable to live with the all fish have ich arguement. also, my concern is less about the 20 dollar tank and more about the 40 dollar pumps and hundreds of dollars salinity monitors etc used in the tank and shared between tanks. I wanted to be sure that the equipment used in copper could be cleaned for reuse in tanks with rock and inverts.

SnkyJake · 10/31/2006, 03:22 PM

I had nasty ich problems when I first started. Treated, treated and treated some more... it would go away and come back 2-3 weeks later.

Finally I read Concientious Marine book (which someone recommended earlier in this thread) - and as I recall book said temperature controller, and UV were "highly recommended" to control fish stress and parasites.

Went out and bought them, and have never had ich since.

As everyone else says, don't give up. You will learn to spot problems, and will eventually just use test kits to just verify where the problem lies. It is a time consuming hobby, and patience is definitely a virtue!

I remember what my LFS owner told me when I first got started... "You should just do drugs, it will be alot cheaper!" HAHAHAHA (There was alot of wisdom in his words)

Conceyted · 10/31/2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SnkyJake
I had nasty ich problems when I first started. Treated, treated and treated some more... it would go away and come back 2-3 weeks later.

Finally I read Concientious Marine book (which someone recommended earlier in this thread) - and as I recall book said temperature controller, and UV were "highly recommended" to control fish stress and parasites.

Went out and bought them, and have never had ich since.

As everyone else says, don't give up. You will learn to spot problems, and will eventually just use test kits to just verify where the problem lies. It is a time consuming hobby, and patience is definitely a virtue!

I remember what my LFS owner told me when I first got started... "You should just do drugs, it will be alot cheaper!" HAHAHAHA (There was alot of wisdom in his words)

great first post! Drug comment is classic!

utreefer · 10/31/2006, 06:18 PM

There was only one reply about UV sterilizers, why? As soon as I got a powder blue, he got ick. Tried garlic, didn't work. He was so bad, covered in spots and lumpy, thought for sure he was going to die. Got an 18 watt UV, and within 3-4 days he was back to health. I run UV all the time, and I've never had ick since and have never had a fish die in the last year since it's been on. With the amount of fish you've gone through, spending 100 bucks would be much cheaper.

Shooter7 · 10/31/2006, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conceyted
the many people I speak of are throughout the site. rather than like you to the hundreds of threads where this is discussed, go to the site search and type in copper contamination or simply copper myth.

Actually did what you suggested here and searched both for over a year back. Did not find the "hundreds" of threads you mentioned and did not find any that conclusively said that this is a myth. Only one I really saw that I'd give much credence to is one by Steven Pro saying he didn't think it was as much of a big deal as it is made out to be. Guess we'll see. Don't know if anyone has really researched this, but wanted to see if I could find anything that went against what I had seen posted here so much the other direction of advising against using tanks that had had copper in them. I have not had any reason to treat with copper thus far, so I don't have any concerns. Reef on.

courtneyclv · 10/31/2006, 08:02 PM

So after reading the info about keeping some copper in the QT for good measures...I have thought of something.

Since you cannot use copper with inverts or LR..what if I just go "Fish only". I can treat with hyposalinity then if I get an ich outbreak, or keep low dosage or copper in the display tank.

Or do what was suggested by bureau and keep a low dose of cupramine in the QT all of the time but never put inverts in there.

I read a big debate post awhile back about UV ster. and many people said they do not do a darn thing, its basically a hoax and good luck. I was going to buy one and then someone said in detail that the amount of wattage most people use does not even come close to killing the ich..just the good bacteria in your tank.

(dont get mad..im just thinking and throwing my thoughts out here.)

chris.hampton · 11/01/2006, 02:22 AM

Copper and Hypo will also kill the good bacteria and pods, worms etc that are living in the rock and the sand bed, or if you go fish only (like you said!!) then the filter you would have to put on to act as the live rock, hope that makes sense!! I always thought that a UV ster. was a good bit of kit to have, this is only what i have read and i haven't done a lot of research on it but i thought it would kill ich (if you got the right wattage and had the flow going through it slow enough) and that it would help with (free floating) algea blooms and bacteria blooms.

bureau13 · 11/01/2006, 12:01 PM

Courtneyclv: I wouldn't run a fish only display and keep copper in it at all times. I keep it in the QT but I don't keep fish in there long term. I tend to believe that most of these fish do better in a more natural environment, like a reef or at least live rock. Besides, if you wanted to keep a fish-only display with constant low dosage copper you would have to have no substrate, no rock, just fake stuff. Not sure if that's what you meant.

About UV sterilizers...some people swear by them, but logically, while they can certainly be set up to kill any ich parasites that pass through them, its not so easy to make sure that all of those parasites do in fact pass through them before reproducing. Especially given that the flow has to be slow enough to ensure that the parasites die.

jds

rekn · 11/01/2006, 01:14 PM

puffers should never be submitted to any heavy metal, ever.

to have an ich free tank, wich is real reasy, then take every fish out of your display tank, every fish. leave display fishless (totally) for 2 months. what youve just done is starve ich out.

in the qt tank lower the salinity to hypo levels. alot of intelligent people suggest .09. leave fish that you took from display and keep them in that salinity for 2 months.

qt should be bare bottom with only pvc elbows and such for hiding. no rock, sand or anything else. anything you put into this type of qt that isnt a fish will most likely die so only put fish in there.

if you do what i stated above then youll be ich free. also, new additions should be kept in the hypo for 2 months also.

techreef · 11/01/2006, 03:06 PM

How long do you hypo QT'ers take to lower your QT water down to hypo levels from your normal levels? I assume you can't just toss fish from your display into a QT set at .09 salinity. Also on my mind is, once you have your QT running at .09, what do you do when you buy a new fish and bring it home to QT before adding to your display tank? Can you drip acclimate the new fish into the QT tank, or is that just too far of a change ("normal" salinity to .09) to do through drip acclimation?

bureau13 · 11/01/2006, 03:59 PM

She doesn't have a puffer anymore, so my recommendation stands

Seriously...I don't know anything about puffers, but I have a similar problem with my mandarin, so yeah...if you're QT-ing copper-sensitive fish, don't listen to me. Now, if you had copper in the QT before and completely changed out the water, are puffers THAT senstive? I don't have any idea.

jds

Quote:

Originally posted by rekn
puffers should never be submitted to any heavy metal, ever.

to have an ich free tank, wich is real reasy, then take every fish out of your display tank, every fish. leave display fishless (totally) for 2 months. what youve just done is starve ich out.

in the qt tank lower the salinity to hypo levels. alot of intelligent people suggest .09. leave fish that you took from display and keep them in that salinity for 2 months.

qt should be bare bottom with only pvc elbows and such for hiding. no rock, sand or anything else. anything you put into this type of qt that isnt a fish will most likely die so only put fish in there.

if you do what i stated above then youll be ich free. also, new additions should be kept in the hypo for 2 months also.

rekn · 11/01/2006, 06:30 PM

theres a fish disease forum, one of the stickies is how to treat ich. i highly suggest giving it a gander

Ursus · 11/01/2006, 07:08 PM

I think a UV would be a great addition to a QT tank, or even a display. Most free swimming parasites will succumb to the UV and between that and hypo or copper is you so choose, you have a better chance for success.

The bottom line is UV's do work and will kill parasites that pass through them. That, and in a QT, I can so no reason to not use one in addition to whatever treatment you are administering.

bureau13 · 11/01/2006, 07:25 PM

Proper dosing of copper or proper use of hypo WILL kill all the parasites. A UV in a QT is a waste of money, and if you use it with something like Cupramine, will actually cause the copper to take a more toxic form. Check out the Seachem web site on Cupramine if you want more details on this.

jds

Quote:

Originally posted by Ursus
I think a UV would be a great addition to a QT tank, or even a display. Most free swimming parasites will succumb to the UV and between that and hypo or copper is you so choose, you have a better chance for success.

The bottom line is UV's do work and will kill parasites that pass through them. That, and in a QT, I can so no reason to not use one in addition to whatever treatment you are administering.

10/30/2006, 06:58 PM	#27
BTTRFLYGRL Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: INDY Posts: 2,857	Ich is a parasite it cannot suddenly reappear to attack stressed out fish if it is not in the tank..I don't know what info you are reading on ich but, but that info is wrong. Its hard to get anything straight on these sites when all you hear is conflicting information from other hobbyist. I would advise you to remove that Firefish...As Freed said, 'fallow' means 'empty'..It means NO fish. Slow yourself down. Buy some books to read. Bob Fenners 'The conscientious Marine Aquarist' ,' Edward Noga Disease diagnosis and treatment 'are good books to have. Read and research before restocking your tank. Quarantine your new fish for 4 weeks [preferably one at a time] then if the fish is sick, it will not effect the other fish . Nothing good in this hobby happens fast. You cannot expect success by throwing a bunch of fish in the tank at once...that will only lead to disaster. It may take a little longer, but its nice when you can enjoy your healthy fish... Good luck to you __________________ AKA Kim Hardie.. Current Tank Info: 240 gallon FOWLR, 180 gallon reef, 55 gallon for my Dwarf Lion

10/30/2006, 07:06 PM	#28
courtneyclv Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 188	I had another member tell me this.... If the ich does not 'attach' to the fish then no need to take it out. The ich will still die because it is not using that one fish as a host. But now I know..I will attempt to remove the firefish this week. Freed, I like your 'interests'. If you want, please PM me and I will do ANYTHING you tell me to keep ich out of my tank! Be my mentor! __________________ Send me a private message if you have any newbie advice to give. ;) Patience is a virtue..that I do not have..but I'm working on it! Current Tank Info: 80 gallon long and short, power filter for 10 gal, fluval 305 canister filter, powerhead, sand substrate,51 lbs live rock, 1 sand sifting sea star, snails,all in display tank. foxface has ich again

10/31/2006, 02:16 PM	#32
Conceyted Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 1,123	it is a highly debated issue but from what I gathered, many people clean out and reuse equipment and tanks that once housed copper medications. there seems to be a myth floating around that copper cannot be removed from tanks even in cleansing. __________________ -Chris and Jaime Current Tank Info: Rimless & Sumped Biocube Clownfish/BTA Harem

10/31/2006, 02:20 PM	#33
Shooter7 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Tolono, IL Posts: 6,754	Where are these "many people" and who decided it was a myth? Just curious. __________________ Dave Current Tank Info: 10 years salty - standard 29g reef - moved from 120 gal reef, 2x250w Reeflux 10k's on ARO electronics and VHO super actinics on Icecap ballast, 2xTunze 6060, MSX 200 skimmer, GEO 612 Ca reactor, mag 12 return

10/31/2006, 02:38 PM	#35
Conceyted Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 1,123	the many people I speak of are throughout the site. rather than like you to the hundreds of threads where this is discussed, go to the site search and type in copper contamination or simply copper myth. __________________ -Chris and Jaime Current Tank Info: Rimless & Sumped Biocube Clownfish/BTA Harem

10/30/2006, 07:45 PM	#29
Ursus Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 480	A fish can carry ich without showing any obvious symptoms of the parasite. However, when a fish becomes stressed, they are more likely to 'break out.' I would say run the display fallow (that firefish has got to go to qt some how) and do hyposalinity in the QT. Run some carbon in the qt to remove as much copper as possible. After 6 weeks you should be golden. Just be sure to qt all new arrivals before introducing them to the display.

10/31/2006, 12:46 PM	#30
bureau13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,936	For what its worth, to give a counterpoint on the whole "Don't put copper in the new fish QT" opinion...I use Cupramine in my QT with all new fish. I have not seen any obvious problems resulting in it. In my opinion, putting new fish in QT without treating them is asking for trouble...given that everyone seems to agree that some fish can have a small ich infestation that you can't really see, if you get one of those fish in your QT and don't treat, then you will be adding the parasite to your display, and if you have any sensitive fish in there, they are likely to get it. I also prefer Cupramine to hypo because it is also a treatment for velvet, which I have had, and which is much less fun than ich. jds

10/31/2006, 02:34 PM	#34
mbbuna Moved On Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 6,847	Randys thoughts on copper http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=copper IMO ich is present on most fish, stress and poor water conditions weaken the fish and then ich can get a foot hold. find out whats causing the stress and you wont have problems.

10/31/2006, 02:53 PM	#36
bureau13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,936	Well, I personally would not risk using my QT for inverts once its had copper in it. I've got a couple 10 gallon tanks lying around, I would just use one of those. Even if I didn't...what do they cost new? $20? Its just not worth the risk. The problem with accepting a small level of ich in your tank, and then eliminating whatever stress is causing them the fish to be more susceptible to it, is you sometimes cannot control sudden stressors. What if you have a power outtage and your temp spikes? What if you add another fish who happens to be a jerk, and you can't immediately get him out? There are any number of things that can pop up and cause stress, and then suddenly some of your fish start showing ich again. jds

10/31/2006, 03:22 PM	#38
SnkyJake Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Quad Cities Posts: 61	I had nasty ich problems when I first started. Treated, treated and treated some more... it would go away and come back 2-3 weeks later. Finally I read Concientious Marine book (which someone recommended earlier in this thread) - and as I recall book said temperature controller, and UV were "highly recommended" to control fish stress and parasites. Went out and bought them, and have never had ich since. As everyone else says, don't give up. You will learn to spot problems, and will eventually just use test kits to just verify where the problem lies. It is a time consuming hobby, and patience is definitely a virtue! I remember what my LFS owner told me when I first got started... "You should just do drugs, it will be alot cheaper!" HAHAHAHA (There was alot of wisdom in his words)

10/31/2006, 06:18 PM	#40
utreefer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: utah Posts: 2	There was only one reply about UV sterilizers, why? As soon as I got a powder blue, he got ick. Tried garlic, didn't work. He was so bad, covered in spots and lumpy, thought for sure he was going to die. Got an 18 watt UV, and within 3-4 days he was back to health. I run UV all the time, and I've never had ick since and have never had a fish die in the last year since it's been on. With the amount of fish you've gone through, spending 100 bucks would be much cheaper.

10/31/2006, 08:02 PM	#42
courtneyclv Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 188	So after reading the info about keeping some copper in the QT for good measures...I have thought of something. Since you cannot use copper with inverts or LR..what if I just go "Fish only". I can treat with hyposalinity then if I get an ich outbreak, or keep low dosage or copper in the display tank. Or do what was suggested by bureau and keep a low dose of cupramine in the QT all of the time but never put inverts in there. I read a big debate post awhile back about UV ster. and many people said they do not do a darn thing, its basically a hoax and good luck. I was going to buy one and then someone said in detail that the amount of wattage most people use does not even come close to killing the ich..just the good bacteria in your tank. (dont get mad..im just thinking and throwing my thoughts out here.) __________________ Send me a private message if you have any newbie advice to give. ;) Patience is a virtue..that I do not have..but I'm working on it! Current Tank Info: 80 gallon long and short, power filter for 10 gal, fluval 305 canister filter, powerhead, sand substrate,51 lbs live rock, 1 sand sifting sea star, snails,all in display tank. foxface has ich again

11/01/2006, 02:22 AM	#43
chris.hampton Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 490	Copper and Hypo will also kill the good bacteria and pods, worms etc that are living in the rock and the sand bed, or if you go fish only (like you said!!) then the filter you would have to put on to act as the live rock, hope that makes sense!! I always thought that a UV ster. was a good bit of kit to have, this is only what i have read and i haven't done a lot of research on it but i thought it would kill ich (if you got the right wattage and had the flow going through it slow enough) and that it would help with (free floating) algea blooms and bacteria blooms. __________________ Imagine how deep the ocean would be if there wasn’t any sponges!! Current Tank Info: 95 (UK) gal 2 years old and 10 gal with bangi babies!!!

11/01/2006, 12:01 PM	#44
bureau13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,936	Courtneyclv: I wouldn't run a fish only display and keep copper in it at all times. I keep it in the QT but I don't keep fish in there long term. I tend to believe that most of these fish do better in a more natural environment, like a reef or at least live rock. Besides, if you wanted to keep a fish-only display with constant low dosage copper you would have to have no substrate, no rock, just fake stuff. Not sure if that's what you meant. About UV sterilizers...some people swear by them, but logically, while they can certainly be set up to kill any ich parasites that pass through them, its not so easy to make sure that all of those parasites do in fact pass through them before reproducing. Especially given that the flow has to be slow enough to ensure that the parasites die. jds

11/01/2006, 01:14 PM	#45
rekn Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: colorado springs,co Posts: 909	puffers should never be submitted to any heavy metal, ever. to have an ich free tank, wich is real reasy, then take every fish out of your display tank, every fish. leave display fishless (totally) for 2 months. what youve just done is starve ich out. in the qt tank lower the salinity to hypo levels. alot of intelligent people suggest .09. leave fish that you took from display and keep them in that salinity for 2 months. qt should be bare bottom with only pvc elbows and such for hiding. no rock, sand or anything else. anything you put into this type of qt that isnt a fish will most likely die so only put fish in there. if you do what i stated above then youll be ich free. also, new additions should be kept in the hypo for 2 months also.

11/01/2006, 03:06 PM	#46
techreef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montclair, NJ Posts: 1,046	How long do you hypo QT'ers take to lower your QT water down to hypo levels from your normal levels? I assume you can't just toss fish from your display into a QT set at .09 salinity. Also on my mind is, once you have your QT running at .09, what do you do when you buy a new fish and bring it home to QT before adding to your display tank? Can you drip acclimate the new fish into the QT tank, or is that just too far of a change ("normal" salinity to .09) to do through drip acclimation?

11/01/2006, 06:30 PM	#48
rekn Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: colorado springs,co Posts: 909	theres a fish disease forum, one of the stickies is how to treat ich. i highly suggest giving it a gander

11/01/2006, 07:08 PM	#49
Ursus Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 480	I think a UV would be a great addition to a QT tank, or even a display. Most free swimming parasites will succumb to the UV and between that and hypo or copper is you so choose, you have a better chance for success. The bottom line is UV's do work and will kill parasites that pass through them. That, and in a QT, I can so no reason to not use one in addition to whatever treatment you are administering.