Urgent! can a mandrin get ICK - Page 2

goldmaniac · 11/16/2006, 12:42 PM

I can't believe nobody's suggested this... it's so easy and safe.

I've used this treatment for ich for 5 years, now, 100% effective, if you catch it in time. didn't work when i came back from vacation and outbreak had gotten too bad, once.

I had read somewhere that you should put "garlic oil" in the tank, but when I could not find this mysterious 'garlic oil', I simply took 2 large cloves of raw garlic, mashed them thru a garlic press into the 120 gal display tank. Repeat every day or every other day, depending on the severity of the outbreak, for a week or two.

The next day you should smell some garlic coming off the water surface. If not, you didn't add enough garlic the day before. A little smell is an indicator of a good amount, I've found. I would imagine you can overdose raw garlic, or at least put more than necessary into a display tank.

I came up with this solution on my own, and more than one LFS hadn't ever heard of this treatment. 6-months later, everyone at the LFS's were suggesting this to their customers. I was so proud. heh heh

I thought of this treatment because I know that giving raw garlic to horses keeps the biting flys away, and was thinking of roughly the same premise. My tangs actually like eating the garlic, and if the fish tastes like garlic, the Ich parasites pop off by themselves. I don't know if they die without a host, but the fish feel fine afterwards. I know the ich lifecycle is pretty complex and about a month long; i don't attempt to rid the tank of the parasites. I have an outbreak about once a year, usually after adding livestock to the tank, newly introduced ich vermin.

It's worked with some very delicate tangs, throughout the years:

powder blue tang
kole tang
purple tang
naso tang

I figure if it's worked for these species, it's gentle enough and yet effective enough to suggest to others.

Good luck -

flameangel88 · 11/16/2006, 01:00 PM

goldmaniac: that's a great idea.

goldmaniac · 11/16/2006, 01:10 PM

this treatment works best if you start it up as soon as you can definitively determine it's ich. I can usually tell by the time there's 6 or 8 white spots per fish.

cayars · 11/16/2006, 01:13 PM

Steven, it's my understanding that cartilaginous fishes (sharks and rays) appear resistant, but that they can in fact carry it. I think a lot of people read "resistant" and think "can't" in that they "can't get it".

I myself have never personally seen it but if I did I would surely want to have a look at it under a microscope. We recently had a sandtiger shark here at Adventure Aquarium (Camden, NJ) with what was thought to be ich but turned out to be something else. However, the fact that it was thought to be crypo does lead me to believe that the biologists didn't have issue with the fact that the shark could get it. <-- does that make sense?

Sharks can get catch ich (cryptocaryon irritans) and marine velvet (amyloodiunium ocellatum) according to Scott Michael's "Sharks and Rays". It's only briefly mentioned and I think he is quoting other research but it's hard to tell from the book.

Bob Fenner has stated numerious times over at wetwebmedia.com that sharks can get ich but I've never seen him quote evidense on it. I quick search turned up:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sharkdiseasefaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/blacktipshark.htm
"Healthy Blacktip Reef Sharks tend to stay that way, or be dead with little notice. The species is susceptible to cryptocaryon if very stressed, exposed to a going hyperinfection, and a fluke (monogenetic trematode)"

Carlo
My personal thoughts on the matter don't really count as I've done nothing but read what others have done in the field. However it would seem that we are still learning more about it all the time. Also it doesn't seem like there has been any more in depth studies on it in a few years.

It was once thought that ich only attached to fish with scales but we know this not to be the case anymore. Fish like manderins were always classified as "resistant" same as sharks but we know they can get it.

cayars · 11/16/2006, 02:54 PM

I couple of places that come to mind:

http://www.oceanpods.com
http://www.reed-mariculture.com/copepod/
http://www.floridapets.com

Probably a good bet would be to culture them yourself. A good article on culturing:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...3/breeder2.htm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler lindberg
The tank to tank method is interesting. where can I buy live pods?

bureau13 · 11/17/2006, 01:07 AM

You know, I had heard that, but when I asked about it on the Seachem forum their rep said that they have not tested it, but that they don't recommend it for Mandarins. It did sound a bit like he was covering himself and didn't want to be responsible if it didn't work...

jds

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
Hyposalinity would be fine, but Seachem's Cupramine is supposed to be safe for Mandarins.

reefD · 11/17/2006, 02:16 AM

wellmine have never shown it even when entire tank did. maybe resistant is a better word. still skepticle as i never read work by a biologist saying this about mandarines. any links?

cayars · 11/17/2006, 02:41 AM

It's a scaleless fish with a thick slime coating so it's not usual for them to get it unless you have a bad ich problem.

Think about it, one of the things that helps bring out ich in fish is "stress". Manderins are normally pretty happy fish as long as they have food. They normally don't fight with other fish and other fish don't mess with them. If you water chemistry is good then the manderin probably isn't going to be stressed. This coupled with his scaleless slimed body makes him pretty resistant to ich but not immune.

We know scientifically without a doubt that all bony fish can get ich. Some would say the jury is still out on cartilaginous fishes (i.e. sharks and rays) but we know for sure they are "resistant". I like Steven would love to read/study any scientific information on sharks with ich. I don't really think we'll be seeing anything on this anytime soon however as most sharks in captivity are in large aquariums that use proper QT procedures and probably have ich free tanks. So the chances of study are slim. Besides the sharks hard skin the other fact that helps them stay resistant to ich is that they are always moving. The ich parasite typically attaches to the fish while it's sleeping and it's an easy target. Most fish sleep in the same area so it will drop off, reproduce and be able to attach to the same fish again later without much problem. This works against the ich parasite with sharks because they don't do this.

Steven Pro · 11/17/2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bureau13
You know, I had heard that, but when I asked about it on the Seachem forum their rep said that they have not tested it, but that they don't recommend it for Mandarins. It did sound a bit like he was covering himself and didn't want to be responsible if it didn't work...

jds

I have used Cupramine on a number of fishes, but no mandarins because I don't sell them. But, Terry Bartelme has specifically written about using Cupramine on mandarins hence my statement and the way I worded it,
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_3.html

bureau13 · 11/17/2006, 02:17 PM

Interesting, thanks for the reference. I have one in a potentially ich-ridden fuge right now and I've been wrestling with the idea of transferring him to the display directly. Based on this, I may just have to give the Cupramine a try.

Thanks,
jds

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
I have used Cupramine on a number of fishes, but no mandarins because I don't sell them. But, Terry Bartelme has specifically written about using Cupramine on mandarins hence my statement and the way I worded it,
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...um_fish_3.html

IndyReefMan · 11/18/2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyler lindberg
The tank to tank method is interesting. where can I buy live pods?

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...=ReefNutrition

11/17/2006, 02:16 AM	#32
reefD Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Schenectady,New York Posts: 4,968	wellmine have never shown it even when entire tank did. maybe resistant is a better word. still skepticle as i never read work by a biologist saying this about mandarines. any links? __________________ DAVID Current Tank Info: it has four sides and a bottom...oh yeah and it has water in it. lol

11/16/2006, 12:42 PM	#26
goldmaniac Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Yardley, PA Posts: 1,567	I can't believe nobody's suggested this... it's so easy and safe. I've used this treatment for ich for 5 years, now, 100% effective, if you catch it in time. didn't work when i came back from vacation and outbreak had gotten too bad, once. I had read somewhere that you should put "garlic oil" in the tank, but when I could not find this mysterious 'garlic oil', I simply took 2 large cloves of raw garlic, mashed them thru a garlic press into the 120 gal display tank. Repeat every day or every other day, depending on the severity of the outbreak, for a week or two. The next day you should smell some garlic coming off the water surface. If not, you didn't add enough garlic the day before. A little smell is an indicator of a good amount, I've found. I would imagine you can overdose raw garlic, or at least put more than necessary into a display tank. I came up with this solution on my own, and more than one LFS hadn't ever heard of this treatment. 6-months later, everyone at the LFS's were suggesting this to their customers. I was so proud. heh heh I thought of this treatment because I know that giving raw garlic to horses keeps the biting flys away, and was thinking of roughly the same premise. My tangs actually like eating the garlic, and if the fish tastes like garlic, the Ich parasites pop off by themselves. I don't know if they die without a host, but the fish feel fine afterwards. I know the ich lifecycle is pretty complex and about a month long; i don't attempt to rid the tank of the parasites. I have an outbreak about once a year, usually after adding livestock to the tank, newly introduced ich vermin. It's worked with some very delicate tangs, throughout the years: powder blue tang kole tang purple tang naso tang I figure if it's worked for these species, it's gentle enough and yet effective enough to suggest to others. Good luck -

11/16/2006, 01:00 PM	#27
flameangel88 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 3,998	goldmaniac: that's a great idea.

11/16/2006, 01:10 PM	#28
goldmaniac Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Yardley, PA Posts: 1,567	this treatment works best if you start it up as soon as you can definitively determine it's ich. I can usually tell by the time there's 6 or 8 white spots per fish.

11/16/2006, 01:13 PM	#29
cayars Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bordentown, New Jersey Posts: 653	Steven, it's my understanding that cartilaginous fishes (sharks and rays) appear resistant, but that they can in fact carry it. I think a lot of people read "resistant" and think "can't" in that they "can't get it". I myself have never personally seen it but if I did I would surely want to have a look at it under a microscope. We recently had a sandtiger shark here at Adventure Aquarium (Camden, NJ) with what was thought to be ich but turned out to be something else. However, the fact that it was thought to be crypo does lead me to believe that the biologists didn't have issue with the fact that the shark could get it. <-- does that make sense? Sharks can get catch ich (cryptocaryon irritans) and marine velvet (amyloodiunium ocellatum) according to Scott Michael's "Sharks and Rays". It's only briefly mentioned and I think he is quoting other research but it's hard to tell from the book. Bob Fenner has stated numerious times over at wetwebmedia.com that sharks can get ich but I've never seen him quote evidense on it. I quick search turned up: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sharkdiseasefaqs.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/blacktipshark.htm "Healthy Blacktip Reef Sharks tend to stay that way, or be dead with little notice. The species is susceptible to cryptocaryon if very stressed, exposed to a going hyperinfection, and a fluke (monogenetic trematode)" Carlo My personal thoughts on the matter don't really count as I've done nothing but read what others have done in the field. However it would seem that we are still learning more about it all the time. Also it doesn't seem like there has been any more in depth studies on it in a few years. It was once thought that ich only attached to fish with scales but we know this not to be the case anymore. Fish like manderins were always classified as "resistant" same as sharks but we know they can get it.

11/17/2006, 02:41 AM	#33
cayars Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bordentown, New Jersey Posts: 653	It's a scaleless fish with a thick slime coating so it's not usual for them to get it unless you have a bad ich problem. Think about it, one of the things that helps bring out ich in fish is "stress". Manderins are normally pretty happy fish as long as they have food. They normally don't fight with other fish and other fish don't mess with them. If you water chemistry is good then the manderin probably isn't going to be stressed. This coupled with his scaleless slimed body makes him pretty resistant to ich but not immune. We know scientifically without a doubt that all bony fish can get ich. Some would say the jury is still out on cartilaginous fishes (i.e. sharks and rays) but we know for sure they are "resistant". I like Steven would love to read/study any scientific information on sharks with ich. I don't really think we'll be seeing anything on this anytime soon however as most sharks in captivity are in large aquariums that use proper QT procedures and probably have ich free tanks. So the chances of study are slim. Besides the sharks hard skin the other fact that helps them stay resistant to ich is that they are always moving. The ich parasite typically attaches to the fish while it's sleeping and it's an easy target. Most fish sleep in the same area so it will drop off, reproduce and be able to attach to the same fish again later without much problem. This works against the ich parasite with sharks because they don't do this.