Is our hobby wiping out the Reefs - Page 2

RobbyG · 11/23/2006, 11:22 PM

True I agree 100% but how many people are truly succesful? Even if you have a pair of Tangs for 15 years, if they never breed successfully and die of old age, you still are not helping to preserve the species. Kind of like what's happening with Giant Pandas, only very few ever breed successfully in a zoo.

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisstie
Go ahead and laugh at me, but I am more worried about natural causes damaging our reefs We, the aquarists who truly care about our tanks do everything we can to prolong the life of what we keep.

This guy, however, is running on pure nature's instinct and is nasty nasty nasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown-of-thorns_starfish

rcypert · 11/23/2006, 11:30 PM

Humans willl destroy this world. mark my words. we are too many, too powerful and too stupid.

malintner · 11/24/2006, 11:34 AM

Gee rcypert, you might be right. You should take the lead. get off of the planet now. The rest of us will be right behind you.

RobbyG · 11/24/2006, 11:36 AM

We will never destroy the world! At the worst only ourselves. After we destroy ourselves and just about every other living creature, the planet will renew itself as it has done many times in the past, in a few million years Birds will be flying, trees will be growing and balance wil be restored, Minus those pesky Humans!

rcypert · 11/24/2006, 06:08 PM

Yeah that is what they say will happen. But who knows it seems like this is the most powerfully destrcutive species there ever was able to change climates and destroy oceans.
Malintner, your a funny man, are you doing your part?

Chad Vossen · 11/24/2006, 06:46 PM

here is something to read

it makes me sad how some people collect stuff.

zemuron114 · 11/24/2006, 07:17 PM

collectors are not over harvesting. some are not legit and they should be punished but a lot of them are very knowledgeable and take pride in what they do. Hurricanes wiped out the waikiki beach in hawaii not collectors...

Tangs are not endangered but the amount of yellow tangs coming in from the big island is a little concerning.

There are so many collectors in the third world countries because it is easy money especially when they use cyanide or bleach etc. Things aren't the same in Hawaii, australia, marshalls, christmas, florida, etc.

old salty · 11/24/2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by malintner
Gee rcypert, you might be right. You should take the lead. get off of the planet now. The rest of us will be right behind you.

I like the way you think!!

triple j · 11/25/2006, 12:46 AM

I just read a disturbing article that states that if nothing is done about the current rate of fishing practices in the oceans as well as reef destrution that the oceans will be "dead " by the 2050! NOT A PLEASENT THOUGHT!!

weekf · 11/25/2006, 01:09 AM

Quick better start stocking now before 2050 comes!!!

scaryperson27 · 11/25/2006, 02:17 AM

If we were collecting to many fish wouldn't be a more prominant environmentle issue? I watched a documentry on the barron reefs and they described the most prominant problems to be global warming (of coarse), people dumping waist into the ocean, algae overpopulation (cause of people dumping waist into the ocean, Crown of thorns, and a couple others I cannot remember off of the top of my head. The one thing you allways see is massive amounts of fish, especially tangs. I live in florida and go out on my boat often (live on a canal). If i ever go out to the gulf i allways see tangs and other "aquarium" fish all over the place. Tangs dont just populate in the reefs you know. Fish are like bugs. They're everywhere. Our hobby doesn't even cause a drip in a pails worth of the damage that is going on in our aqualife.

maddyfish · 11/25/2006, 08:00 AM

Could the opposite be true? What monetary value to local peoples would the reefs have without the reefkeeping trade? Would the reefs primary value then be as an aggregate for the concrete industry? Or would there then be more coral harvesting, so that they could be bleached and put onto a shelf as a decoration?

Alot of the countries with reefs, don't have much else to base an economy upon, and will make money from the reefs in any way possible. Don't be so naive to believe that if the reefkeeping trade stopped that reef harvesting would stop as well, it would just change, and maybe to something more destructive. I'd rather reef rock be sold for $5 a pound as liverock, than $5 a ton as a contrete aggregate.

musty baby · 11/25/2006, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisstie
Go ahead and laugh at me, but I am more worried about natural causes damaging our reefs We, the aquarists who truly care about our tanks do everything we can to prolong the life of what we keep.

This guy, however, is running on pure nature's instinct and is nasty nasty nasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown-of-thorns_starfish

Well you almost hit the nail. Crown of thorns starfish are likely blowing up in population because of overharvesting of predatory fish by humans.

musty baby · 11/25/2006, 08:54 AM

...and collecting and fishing can't do to the reefs what our pollution can. If you want to save reefs you'll have to do a lot more than get out of the hobby.

GlassShark · 11/25/2006, 09:09 AM

You guys aren't even close, I collected fish from Hawaii for about 6 years, I was a small exporter of fish and we collected and shipped about 500 fish a day out of our small facility. But the reallity is mother nature is either creating more or distroying more, (Storms) than we could ever dream of. If you dont believe me try to go diving for a week straight in the same location and collect as many fish as you can, I bet when you go back the next week you wont even be able tell you we there. The ocean is bigger and more productive than you could ever imagine, unless you've actually spent alot of time underwater i think its hard for anyone to fathom what a resouce it is. I used to dive 6 tanks a day, 6 days a week. I couldn't be so arrogant to think I, or any of my fellow collectors were so good, we could leave our natural enviroment, clumbsily swim through the fishes natural enviroment and deplete the reef.

ReeferAl · 11/25/2006, 10:38 AM

There are clearly many human actions that are adversely affecting the reefs. From the reading I've done they include the following, in roughly the order of importance:[list=1][*]Habitat destruction by shoreline development and near shore activities, often resulting in eutrophication of reefs[*]Global warming causing increased bleaching in short term and decreased calcification due to decreased pH in long term[*]Coral harvesting for building materials[*]Overfishing for food fish- often with ornamental fish in the "by-catch" and with elimination of larger predatory fish shifting the balance of life on the reefs[*]Ornamental fish and coral harvesting due to destructive methods and poor handling[/list=1]

As someone else stated, the overall effects of the aquarium hobby are a "drop in the bucket" compared to other effects. That is not because aquarium effects are so small but because other damage is so great.

Never the less, the aquarium hobby does have noticible local adverse effects. This would include depletion of yellow tangs in the "fishing allowed" areas of Hawaii compared to nearby "no fishing" zones. This can have a secondary increase in algae growth on the reefs. Depletion of certain corals from areas that are heavily harvested to the point of threatening the species with "local extinction", even though the same species is plentiful elsewhere. Reduction in the numbers of Banggai cardinalfish since they have a limited distribution and relatively low fecundity. Removal of live rock rubble habitat in areas where large amounts of live rock are collected.

The impact of our hobby is small but can be reduced further with continued efforts. This includes elimination of cyanide and other destructive fishing practices, improvement in holding and shipping techniques, and education of hobbiests. Unfortunately, even the "worst" of us on this board are likely more responsible than the average hobbiest who starts out with little information and bad advice. Personally, I have quit encouraging anyone from entering the hobby unless I think they will really take it seriously. If the hobby gets "cleaned up" it really could have a negligible effect, far outweighed by the benefits here and at the sites of origin.

Sorry for the long-winded response.

Allen

scaryperson27 · 11/25/2006, 03:14 PM

For some of the points you made, it was concise and well stated.

Cyanide should be illegal, need i say more...

Limits for coral collection should be harsher in my opinion. This would probably influence the study of aquaciltured livestock. Live rock takes too many years to form for us to just cherry pick hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of pounds. stuff like corals inverts like anemonies and other slow growing life should be strictly aquacultured.

RobbyG · 11/25/2006, 04:10 PM

Glassguy I have to totally disagree

Where I am we had an explosion in the 70's of Bleached coral Trading. The local fishermen would pull up as much staghorn coral etc. as they could, bleach it then sell it to tourists. In about 5 years they had wiped out significant amounts of Branching and plate corals in certain areas.

In the 80's the practice was outlawed and the fishermen moved to Spearfishing and fish pots. By 1996 they had just about wiped out every Fish over 8" in length, along with almost all the Lobsters, Conch and even crabs along miles of coast line.

If they had not put a total ban on fishing in many areas and created marine parks in 1996, by now the fishermen would have moved into the ornamental fish and I am sure that by now, there would be nothing left.

Dont think for a second that the Ocean is some sort of endless food train. I have done hundreds of dives over the past 27 years and the reefs and fish populations in this area are at about 30% of what they were in 1979 and while pollution is a factor, I would have quoted you a figure of 20% if you had asked back in 1996, it's only because of bans on fishing that it has risen to 30% and believe me the pollution has gotten a lot worst since 1996. So fishing is the main culprit.

Quote:

Originally posted by GlassShark
You guys aren't even close, I collected fish from Hawaii for about 6 years, I was a small exporter of fish and we collected and shipped about 500 fish a day out of our small facility. But the reallity is mother nature is either creating more or distroying more, (Storms) than we could ever dream of. If you dont believe me try to go diving for a week straight in the same location and collect as many fish as you can, I bet when you go back the next week you wont even be able tell you we there. The ocean is bigger and more productive than you could ever imagine, unless you've actually spent alot of time underwater i think its hard for anyone to fathom what a resouce it is. I used to dive 6 tanks a day, 6 days a week. I couldn't be so arrogant to think I, or any of my fellow collectors were so good, we could leave our natural enviroment, clumbsily swim through the fishes natural enviroment and deplete the reef.

ReeferAl · 11/25/2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scaryperson27
Cyanide should be illegal, need i say more...

Cyanide is illegal everywhere it is used. The problems are policing it- it's a vast ocean around some of the islands, corruption- turning a blind eye by local officials, and undetectibility- cyanide can no longer be detected in exposed fish after just a short time so catching the users away from where they use it is almost impossible.

Allen

GlassShark · 11/25/2006, 04:26 PM

though tthe subject was "our hobby".........can't remember the last time I went to my LFS for a piece of bleached coral.

zemuron114 · 11/25/2006, 05:08 PM

Taking of any coral or rock is illegal in Hawaii. The main destruction of the reefs in Hawaii were from hurricanes or other natural disasters NOT collectors. Many people confuse the aquarium fish with the food fish. the food fish are being depleted, not aquarium fish. It is highly unlikely that collectors could catch more fish then their doubling time (which for 95% of the hobby fish is very quick)

the reefs are fine for now, and it most definitely wont be the hobby that destroys them.

scaryperson27 · 11/25/2006, 07:19 PM

Http://www.Garf.org/ for those of you who have never been there. Is there any one who has bred tangs in captivity?

11/24/2006, 11:36 AM	#29
RobbyG Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: 600 Ft From the Reef Posts: 2,099	We will never destroy the world! At the worst only ourselves. After we destroy ourselves and just about every other living creature, the planet will renew itself as it has done many times in the past, in a few million years Birds will be flying, trees will be growing and balance wil be restored, Minus those pesky Humans! __________________ The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says it’s half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be! Current Tank Info: Insanely Automated Low Power Consumption 90 Gal Oceanic Bow System/Aquatronica Touch Controller/AQ Dosing Pump/AQT LEDS/AQ SMS/Seq Dart Pump/ASM G3/Ozotech Ozonizer/Koralin 1502/Chiller/Typhoon3 Ro/S.Squirt /Phos React/Rmt DSB

11/25/2006, 12:46 AM	#34
triple j Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Hometown, Il Posts: 222	I just read a disturbing article that states that if nothing is done about the current rate of fishing practices in the oceans as well as reef destrution that the oceans will be "dead " by the 2050! NOT A PLEASENT THOUGHT!! __________________ Jeff ---------------------------------------- Of all the things in life I've lost It's my mind i miss the most. Current Tank Info: 55 Gal. reef tank

11/25/2006, 08:00 AM	#37
maddyfish Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 330	Could the opposite be true? What monetary value to local peoples would the reefs have without the reefkeeping trade? Would the reefs primary value then be as an aggregate for the concrete industry? Or would there then be more coral harvesting, so that they could be bleached and put onto a shelf as a decoration? Alot of the countries with reefs, don't have much else to base an economy upon, and will make money from the reefs in any way possible. Don't be so naive to believe that if the reefkeeping trade stopped that reef harvesting would stop as well, it would just change, and maybe to something more destructive. I'd rather reef rock be sold for $5 a pound as liverock, than $5 a ton as a contrete aggregate. __________________ If an expert says it cannot be done, get another expert- David Ben-Gurion Current Tank Info: 75 mixed simple tank 2.5 pico and 20 gallon QUARANTINE

11/23/2006, 11:30 PM	#27
rcypert Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Miami Posts: 435	Humans willl destroy this world. mark my words. we are too many, too powerful and too stupid.

11/24/2006, 11:34 AM	#28
malintner Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 78	Gee rcypert, you might be right. You should take the lead. get off of the planet now. The rest of us will be right behind you.

11/24/2006, 06:08 PM	#30
rcypert Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Miami Posts: 435	Yeah that is what they say will happen. But who knows it seems like this is the most powerfully destrcutive species there ever was able to change climates and destroy oceans. Malintner, your a funny man, are you doing your part?

11/24/2006, 06:46 PM	#31
Chad Vossen Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: St. Cloud, Minnesota Posts: 1,313	here is something to read it makes me sad how some people collect stuff.

11/24/2006, 07:17 PM	#32
zemuron114 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Pilgrim State (Mass) Posts: 4,039	collectors are not over harvesting. some are not legit and they should be punished but a lot of them are very knowledgeable and take pride in what they do. Hurricanes wiped out the waikiki beach in hawaii not collectors... Tangs are not endangered but the amount of yellow tangs coming in from the big island is a little concerning. There are so many collectors in the third world countries because it is easy money especially when they use cyanide or bleach etc. Things aren't the same in Hawaii, australia, marshalls, christmas, florida, etc.

11/25/2006, 01:09 AM	#35
weekf Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 29	Quick better start stocking now before 2050 comes!!!

11/25/2006, 02:17 AM	#36
scaryperson27 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cape Coral, F.L. Posts: 2,106	If we were collecting to many fish wouldn't be a more prominant environmentle issue? I watched a documentry on the barron reefs and they described the most prominant problems to be global warming (of coarse), people dumping waist into the ocean, algae overpopulation (cause of people dumping waist into the ocean, Crown of thorns, and a couple others I cannot remember off of the top of my head. The one thing you allways see is massive amounts of fish, especially tangs. I live in florida and go out on my boat often (live on a canal). If i ever go out to the gulf i allways see tangs and other "aquarium" fish all over the place. Tangs dont just populate in the reefs you know. Fish are like bugs. They're everywhere. Our hobby doesn't even cause a drip in a pails worth of the damage that is going on in our aqualife.

11/25/2006, 08:54 AM	#39
musty baby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: over yonder Posts: 1,751	...and collecting and fishing can't do to the reefs what our pollution can. If you want to save reefs you'll have to do a lot more than get out of the hobby.

11/25/2006, 09:09 AM	#40
GlassShark Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Apex NC Posts: 179	You guys aren't even close, I collected fish from Hawaii for about 6 years, I was a small exporter of fish and we collected and shipped about 500 fish a day out of our small facility. But the reallity is mother nature is either creating more or distroying more, (Storms) than we could ever dream of. If you dont believe me try to go diving for a week straight in the same location and collect as many fish as you can, I bet when you go back the next week you wont even be able tell you we there. The ocean is bigger and more productive than you could ever imagine, unless you've actually spent alot of time underwater i think its hard for anyone to fathom what a resouce it is. I used to dive 6 tanks a day, 6 days a week. I couldn't be so arrogant to think I, or any of my fellow collectors were so good, we could leave our natural enviroment, clumbsily swim through the fishes natural enviroment and deplete the reef.

11/25/2006, 10:38 AM	#41
ReeferAl Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Fond du Lac, WI Posts: 2,040	There are clearly many human actions that are adversely affecting the reefs. From the reading I've done they include the following, in roughly the order of importance:[list=1][]Habitat destruction by shoreline development and near shore activities, often resulting in eutrophication of reefs[]Global warming causing increased bleaching in short term and decreased calcification due to decreased pH in long term[]Coral harvesting for building materials[]Overfishing for food fish- often with ornamental fish in the "by-catch" and with elimination of larger predatory fish shifting the balance of life on the reefs[]Ornamental fish and coral harvesting due to destructive methods and poor handling[/list=1] As someone else stated, the overall effects of the aquarium hobby are a "drop in the bucket" compared to other effects. That is not because aquarium effects are so small but because other damage is so great. Never the less, the aquarium hobby does* have noticible local adverse effects. This would include depletion of yellow tangs in the "fishing allowed" areas of Hawaii compared to nearby "no fishing" zones. This can have a secondary increase in algae growth on the reefs. Depletion of certain corals from areas that are heavily harvested to the point of threatening the species with "local extinction", even though the same species is plentiful elsewhere. Reduction in the numbers of Banggai cardinalfish since they have a limited distribution and relatively low fecundity. Removal of live rock rubble habitat in areas where large amounts of live rock are collected. The impact of our hobby is small but can be reduced further with continued efforts. This includes elimination of cyanide and other destructive fishing practices, improvement in holding and shipping techniques, and education of hobbiests. Unfortunately, even the "worst" of us on this board are likely more responsible than the average hobbiest who starts out with little information and bad advice. Personally, I have quit encouraging anyone from entering the hobby unless I think they will really take it seriously. If the hobby gets "cleaned up" it really could have a negligible effect, far outweighed by the benefits here and at the sites of origin. Sorry for the long-winded response. Allen

11/25/2006, 03:14 PM	#42
scaryperson27 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cape Coral, F.L. Posts: 2,106	For some of the points you made, it was concise and well stated. Cyanide should be illegal, need i say more... Limits for coral collection should be harsher in my opinion. This would probably influence the study of aquaciltured livestock. Live rock takes too many years to form for us to just cherry pick hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of pounds. stuff like corals inverts like anemonies and other slow growing life should be strictly aquacultured.

11/25/2006, 04:26 PM	#45
GlassShark Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Apex NC Posts: 179	though tthe subject was "our hobby".........can't remember the last time I went to my LFS for a piece of bleached coral.

11/25/2006, 05:08 PM	#46
zemuron114 Moved On Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Pilgrim State (Mass) Posts: 4,039	Taking of any coral or rock is illegal in Hawaii. The main destruction of the reefs in Hawaii were from hurricanes or other natural disasters NOT collectors. Many people confuse the aquarium fish with the food fish. the food fish are being depleted, not aquarium fish. It is highly unlikely that collectors could catch more fish then their doubling time (which for 95% of the hobby fish is very quick) the reefs are fine for now, and it most definitely wont be the hobby that destroys them.

11/25/2006, 07:19 PM	#47
scaryperson27 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cape Coral, F.L. Posts: 2,106	Http://www.Garf.org/ for those of you who have never been there. Is there any one who has bred tangs in captivity?