Went from MH to T5 - now have problems - please help - Page 2

prance1520 · 12/01/2006, 11:32 AM

Were you using natural sea water in the previous 29g? If not, thats a big switch (I lost quite a few SPS when changing salts, they aren't the same).

I wouldn't blame lighting for the sps. If the browning acan is still looking healthy (just brown, but still puffy, etc), keep it where it is. I don't think its not enough light, but you did change the spectrum of light. It might be browning because of less light in the spectrum it was absorbing before. It will adapt and color up again as it acclimates to the new spectrum. Like I said, if its not dying, let it do its thing where it is. Move the corals losing tissue to a shaded area or use the screen/eggcrate method. Even then, it still might not be the light as much as the change in water (if you did change your water source).

When I made my switch (same as yours, 250 14ks to 6x54w Tek) I had a lot of corals bleach on me. Now, all but 1 (who was getting way too much light) has gotten 90% of its color back. Give them time to adapt to a bluer spectrum that comes with T5s.

Good luck.

Matt

impur · 12/01/2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reeferman75
For some people saying T5s are not enough light for SPS they are wrong, I am running T5's over my 240 and I am getting a par reading of 203 24" down on my sand bed. I think you should have started your corals off at the bottom and worked there way back up to the top so that the corals get used to new light.

Wow thats a pretty strong reading at the bottom. I did start all my SPS at the bottom of the tank, as well as all of my LPS.

As you can see in the pics, the remaining 3 SPS are doing fine. So i think i'm over that hurdle.

I just don't want to lose these LPS corals. I want to be proactive here, but i'm just at a loss. I've tried everything i know of, so i'm posting again here for some suggestions. I moved the echino to complete shade, moved the favia to very low light and moved my candycane out from low light low flow to the front of the tank with more light and more flow. The acan is still about 1/4 of the way up the tank and haS good flow over it.

This weekend i'm goin got add even more flow to the tank. I currently have 2 Seio 820s going, an MJ 1200 with hydor, and the return. I'm going to add my MJmod tonight, which should add another ~1500gph in the tank. Donno if that will help, but more flow can't hurt (as long as its not blasting a coral directly of course). That should be sufficient until i get my CL fixed and the pump replaced.

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reeferman75
For some people saying T5s are not enough light for SPS they are wrong, I am running T5's over my 240 and I am getting a par reading of 203 24" down on my sand bed. I think you should have started your corals off at the bottom and worked there way back up to the top so that the corals get used to new light.

I think this could have a lot to do with the light not being a single source such as MH provides. You see the shimmer lines on the floor of a MH tank and that shows that light is being randomly dispersed throughout the tank. T5's having the full surface of the water to introduce their light, does not have this distortion or random dispersal of light. In effect, the corals get no break from the light...

Every tank I have helped convert needed a light diffuser initially and in 2 instances I know of, we had to setup a permanent area with a light diffuser so the corals would live.

Did you get your PAR readings with MH or have you always had T5?

impur · 12/01/2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prance1520
Were you using natural sea water in the previous 29g? If not, thats a big switch (I lost quite a few SPS when changing salts, they aren't the same).

I wouldn't blame lighting for the sps. If the browning acan is still looking healthy (just brown, but still puffy, etc), keep it where it is. I don't think its not enough light, but you did change the spectrum of light. It might be browning because of less light in the spectrum it was absorbing before. It will adapt and color up again as it acclimates to the new spectrum. Like I said, if its not dying, let it do its thing where it is. Move the corals losing tissue to a shaded area or use the screen/eggcrate method. Even then, it still might not be the light as much as the change in water (if you did change your water source).

When I made my switch (same as yours, 250 14ks to 6x54w Tek) I had a lot of corals bleach on me. Now, all but 1 (who was getting way too much light) has gotten 90% of its color back. Give them time to adapt to a bluer spectrum that comes with T5s.

Good luck.

Matt

I am using the same salt, all new water except for the water from the 29gal which was added to the 75 along with the corals.

The acan was not puffy last night, not sure if that was due to the stupid cleaner shrimp walking all over it or not. I'll keep an eye on it to see if its still inflating this weekend.

Thanks for the info on your switch Matt. At least i'm not the only one with problems doing this switch.

impur · 12/01/2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randall_James
I think this could have a lot to do with the light not being a single source such as MH provides. You see the shimmer lines on the floor of a MH tank and that shows that light is being randomly dispersed throughout the tank. T5's having the full surface of the water to introduce their light, does not have this distortion or random dispersal of light. In effect, the corals get no break from the light...

Every tank I have helped convert needed a light diffuser initially and in 2 instances I know of, we had to setup a permanent area with a light diffuser so the corals would live.

Did you get your PAR readings with MH or have you always had T5?

Good points. I do not have access to the equip to get PAR readings. Prev tank had 250w MH this tank has T5.

Any idea on why these LPS did fine the first 3.5 weeks, and just now are displaying problems?

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 12:14 PM

LPS IME are slower to react to a lot of things and I am not sure if it is just my experience.

If you have declining water quality (perhaps due to the other corals dying) they could be reacting to that as well.

I have gone to using 1 and 2 layers of light diffuser when changing over to T5's. I have seen a lot of corals also "brown" under T5s and from all I have read, it is just the Zooanthelle "getting healthy" These same sources seem to indicate that many corals color up when starved for light to some extent.

Anyway, there is a period where different strains of Zooanthelle start to take over from previous strains when lighting changes.

Captive SPS farmers have long dealt with corals that do this little color change thing. They get a great looking wild strain, go to farm it and it morphs to some common looking thing.

I would error to the conservative side all the same, you can supplement the LPS with some chopped mysis if they are not getting enough light, but it is hard to help them if they are getting too much. (normally what happens)

Really bites to loose livestock like this I know...

impur · 12/01/2006, 12:26 PM

Good to know! Learn something new everyday. I have fed the acan and micro a couple times in the previous 4 weeks. I'll keep up the feedings. The favia won't come out to eat, same with the candycane.

I have performed a few WCs, i plan on a ~20gal on sunday. The previous WCs were about 5gal each. Maybe upping the WCs will do some good.

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 12:29 PM

Acans are aggressive feeders and you should be feeding at least twice a week. I feed mine every other day (diced mysis)...

The Candycane I saw in your images does not look too good sorry to say and would be surprised if it recovers.

impur · 12/01/2006, 12:45 PM

Feedings are not necessary though, i've had it a year and fed it very rarely. Its doubled in size in that time.

reeferman75 · 12/01/2006, 12:52 PM

I was running 4 250w mh and 4 72" vho my reading on that where not as good as with the T5 at the bottom of the on the sand bed right below the mh I was only getting a reading of 145

impur · 12/01/2006, 12:55 PM

Hmm looks like i might have to search around for a lux meter to get some definate answers here.

Qwiv · 12/01/2006, 01:03 PM

I think your problem was from putting your corals in a new/uncycled tank. One week is not cycled. Blaming it on the lights in unfounded.

reeferman75 · 12/01/2006, 01:03 PM

IMPUR
I am using an Apogee Quantum meter to get my par readings. here is where I got mine from http://webtrolley.org/mivastore/merc...egory_Code=BQM

impur · 12/01/2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Qwiv
I think your problem was from putting your corals in a new/uncycled tank. One week is not cycled. Blaming it on the lights in unfounded.

You are saying that using 2.5 yr old rock from an established system does not help even the slightest bit? The tank ran completely empty for 1 week, i would not assume it to be cycled at that point. The only change here was the lighting and larger tank.

And with that thinking, why would all my SPS have done fine when i QT'd them 4 months ago? I used no rock in the QT, just small colonies and frags and 100% new SW with weekly 100% WCs and 15min TMPCC dips at 2X strenght. I used the same method to transfer those corals as i did here. That light was a 70w MH. I did not lose a single coral over the course of 5 weeks. They surely went thru more stress over that 5 weeks than they did here.

impur · 12/01/2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reeferman75
IMPUR
I am using an Apogee Quantum meter to get my par readings. here is where I got mine from http://webtrolley.org/mivastore/merc...egory_Code=BQM

Ouch spendy. I know my club is considering one, maybe i'll forward the link to them. Thanks.

reeferman75 · 12/01/2006, 02:44 PM

It was pricey but it was well worth it. Now I can keep a better track then just looking at things. I was realy suprised in the different readings from MH to T5

impur · 12/01/2006, 03:26 PM

Yes, your readings are very interesting.

reeferman75 · 12/01/2006, 03:42 PM

IMPUR
Here are the par readings I am getting with my T5's over my 240
[IMG]

[/IMG]

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 03:47 PM

and I really doubt that the "uncycled" tank is an issue.

Many have taken tanks down, upgraded to larger tanks with the same rock and had no cycle or losses.

I think that if you do not acclimate fish or you miss on salinity and temp by a substantial amount, you could have issues.

RichConley · 12/01/2006, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randall_James
Please research this a bit before you go jumping off the deep end. This is very well documented and there are in fact other threads here on RC that show the numbers of users that have gone through this exact scenario.
T5s are in fact more efficient that MH, take 500W of MH and replace it with 500W of T5? not going to happen... You mistake efficiency with output

No, No I dont. And this drives me nuts. Take a look at the data sheets. The output per watt is almost EXACTLY the same. We're talking within 5% here. There is no difference. I have done research, far more than you, I promise.
(if you really want to talk about threads, I can show you one where a 175w Iwasaki 15k absolutely destroys a 6 bulb tek fixture)

The major issue is spectrum. T5s have very narrow spectral plots. MHs have very wide spectral plots. So you put a T5 blue bulb in, and you're getting almost all blue light, as opposed to running a 20K MH bulb, where you're getting a good amount of blue, some violet, some UV, and then a long tail into green/red/etc. Photons at different wavelengths are processed by differnt types of chlorophyll, so you can have shifts that dont cahnge the intensity at all, but drastically change the ratio at which these chemicals are needed, which to a coral, is exactly the same as a huge lighting change.

To make a logn story short, you've changed all sorts of water parameters, changed nutrient levels greatly, made great lighting intensity changes, made great lighting spectral changes, and at the same time, put your corals through a time of stress. Its not surprising you're losing some. Give it time, keep the levels steady.

impur · 12/01/2006, 04:46 PM

Thats probably all i can do huh Rich. Well thanks for the info there, i was too uneducated on T5s before the switch i guess and my corals paid the price. I regret that, but live and learn.

Miles

boxfishpooalot · 12/01/2006, 06:13 PM

Well who said NSW is perfect every time? NSW has differences just like sythetic does.

How much NSW did you add? I would suspect the water, maybee copper. When they collect the water they also process it, anything can be added durring this process.

So far the two major things you did were:
-changed a lot of water
-changed the light.

I dont have sps, but i dont see how light can cause them to slough tissue.

Perhaps plankton in the water. Or super bacteria. There are so many variables here with nsw.

The only other thing I can think of here is if you did a large change, that may have introduced zero(absolute) nitrates and phosphates. They do need some to live and repair tissues.

Get a copper test kit.

Randall_James · 12/01/2006, 10:22 PM

I will just defer this to others that have hands on experience with T5/MH conversions... apparently my experience does not match what shows on paper. I will say that output and efficiency are in fact 2 different things and until you have done a few....

Boxfish:
Lighting changes will kill off SPS so fast you will only sit there and go "What happened" Acclimation is ultra critical in this respect. Plankton is food btw and pretty unlikely to kill off anything

jaeden · 12/02/2006, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MGB
I agree, Randall
I think T5's are very deceptive, they don't visually look that much brighter than VHO or PC's, but when you get corals in there it becomes obvious that lower light things like softies are very easily bleached or shocked. I'd even go as far as saying placement of some SPS's may have to be given careful thought. On a related note I'm noticing that my coraline algea becomes bleached out when it grows right under the light source, anybody else notice this.

I have a 125 aga with 480 watts of T5 running close to 10 weeks and would agree with the above the corraline algea growing in the shade is fine dark purple and such the coraline that is growing in the full light is quite bleached . T5s I believe are a lot stonger than people think ,individual reflectors also have a large factor in intensity of the light as opposed to one single reflector for multipul bulbs , just my own observations.

staticx · 12/02/2006, 07:14 AM

I would say it is very clear what happend, not only did you do a complete tank change with almost zereo acclimation you also did a full light change with no acclimation. I woukld assume you burned siome of your corals as well as shocked them. You did not acclimate them at all you just waited till what you tested was pretty equal and then threw them in the tank, but what you tested is still not every water param you should have acclimated them just as if you had jsut bought them. that would be just like going to the lfs buying a 200 dollar coral and comming home throwing it in your tank, would you do that?? I dont think so bummer what happend jsut try to salvage what you can and take a deep breath.

12/01/2006, 12:14 PM	#31
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	LPS IME are slower to react to a lot of things and I am not sure if it is just my experience. If you have declining water quality (perhaps due to the other corals dying) they could be reacting to that as well. I have gone to using 1 and 2 layers of light diffuser when changing over to T5's. I have seen a lot of corals also "brown" under T5s and from all I have read, it is just the Zooanthelle "getting healthy" These same sources seem to indicate that many corals color up when starved for light to some extent. Anyway, there is a period where different strains of Zooanthelle start to take over from previous strains when lighting changes. Captive SPS farmers have long dealt with corals that do this little color change thing. They get a great looking wild strain, go to farm it and it morphs to some common looking thing. I would error to the conservative side all the same, you can supplement the LPS with some chopped mysis if they are not getting enough light, but it is hard to help them if they are getting too much. (normally what happens) Really bites to loose livestock like this I know... __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

12/01/2006, 12:26 PM	#32
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Good to know! Learn something new everyday. I have fed the acan and micro a couple times in the previous 4 weeks. I'll keep up the feedings. The favia won't come out to eat, same with the candycane. I have performed a few WCs, i plan on a ~20gal on sunday. The previous WCs were about 5gal each. Maybe upping the WCs will do some good. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 12:29 PM	#33
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	Acans are aggressive feeders and you should be feeding at least twice a week. I feed mine every other day (diced mysis)... The Candycane I saw in your images does not look too good sorry to say and would be surprised if it recovers. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

12/01/2006, 12:45 PM	#34
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Feedings are not necessary though, i've had it a year and fed it very rarely. Its doubled in size in that time. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 12:55 PM	#36
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Hmm looks like i might have to search around for a lux meter to get some definate answers here. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 11:32 AM	#26
prance1520 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 488	Were you using natural sea water in the previous 29g? If not, thats a big switch (I lost quite a few SPS when changing salts, they aren't the same). I wouldn't blame lighting for the sps. If the browning acan is still looking healthy (just brown, but still puffy, etc), keep it where it is. I don't think its not enough light, but you did change the spectrum of light. It might be browning because of less light in the spectrum it was absorbing before. It will adapt and color up again as it acclimates to the new spectrum. Like I said, if its not dying, let it do its thing where it is. Move the corals losing tissue to a shaded area or use the screen/eggcrate method. Even then, it still might not be the light as much as the change in water (if you did change your water source). When I made my switch (same as yours, 250 14ks to 6x54w Tek) I had a lot of corals bleach on me. Now, all but 1 (who was getting way too much light) has gotten 90% of its color back. Give them time to adapt to a bluer spectrum that comes with T5s. Good luck. Matt

12/01/2006, 12:52 PM	#35
reeferman75 Moved On Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Atlanta , Ga Posts: 296	I was running 4 250w mh and 4 72" vho my reading on that where not as good as with the T5 at the bottom of the on the sand bed right below the mh I was only getting a reading of 145

12/01/2006, 01:03 PM	#37
Qwiv Persistant Perspective Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Belmont, CA Posts: 2,168	I think your problem was from putting your corals in a new/uncycled tank. One week is not cycled. Blaming it on the lights in unfounded. __________________ If I knew keeping fish would be so hard, I would of had kids by now. Current Tank Info: 50Cube + 250DD + Nano

12/01/2006, 02:44 PM	#41
reeferman75 Moved On Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Atlanta , Ga Posts: 296	It was pricey but it was well worth it. Now I can keep a better track then just looking at things. I was realy suprised in the different readings from MH to T5

12/01/2006, 03:26 PM	#42
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Yes, your readings are very interesting. __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 03:42 PM	#43
reeferman75 Moved On Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Atlanta , Ga Posts: 296	par readings IMPUR Here are the par readings I am getting with my T5's over my 240 [IMG][/IMG]

12/01/2006, 03:47 PM	#44
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	and I really doubt that the "uncycled" tank is an issue. Many have taken tanks down, upgraded to larger tanks with the same rock and had no cycle or losses. I think that if you do not acclimate fish or you miss on salinity and temp by a substantial amount, you could have issues. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

12/01/2006, 04:46 PM	#46
impur Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 4,262	Thats probably all i can do huh Rich. Well thanks for the info there, i was too uneducated on T5s before the switch i guess and my corals paid the price. I regret that, but live and learn. Miles __________________ Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds. Current Tank Info: 75gal, 20gal sump, 6-54w T5 TEK

12/01/2006, 06:13 PM	#47
boxfishpooalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada, Grande Praire, Ab Posts: 5,824	Well who said NSW is perfect every time? NSW has differences just like sythetic does. How much NSW did you add? I would suspect the water, maybee copper. When they collect the water they also process it, anything can be added durring this process. So far the two major things you did were: -changed a lot of water -changed the light. I dont have sps, but i dont see how light can cause them to slough tissue. Perhaps plankton in the water. Or super bacteria. There are so many variables here with nsw. The only other thing I can think of here is if you did a large change, that may have introduced zero(absolute) nitrates and phosphates. They do need some to live and repair tissues. Get a copper test kit. __________________ Its a good idea to have a refrence sample for alk test kits. 1.1350 grams of baking soda in 1gallon of distilled water=10dkh. Check your alkalinity test kit! Algae is Mother Natures phosphate remover Current Tank Info: 220 galon mixed reef.

12/01/2006, 10:22 PM	#48
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	I will just defer this to others that have hands on experience with T5/MH conversions... apparently my experience does not match what shows on paper. I will say that output and efficiency are in fact 2 different things and until you have done a few.... Boxfish: Lighting changes will kill off SPS so fast you will only sit there and go "What happened" Acclimation is ultra critical in this respect. Plankton is food btw and pretty unlikely to kill off anything __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

12/02/2006, 07:14 AM	#50
staticx Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: oregon Posts: 825	I would say it is very clear what happend, not only did you do a complete tank change with almost zereo acclimation you also did a full light change with no acclimation. I woukld assume you burned siome of your corals as well as shocked them. You did not acclimate them at all you just waited till what you tested was pretty equal and then threw them in the tank, but what you tested is still not every water param you should have acclimated them just as if you had jsut bought them. that would be just like going to the lfs buying a 200 dollar coral and comming home throwing it in your tank, would you do that?? I dont think so bummer what happend jsut try to salvage what you can and take a deep breath.