N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[luther1200]

Originally Posted by DeepReefExotics

Well they state that there is absolutely no carbon released unless the surface bateria break it down which why I ordered these last night and that u cant overdose as nothing is released into the water. Or atleast that is my understanding of what these are.

But if it is just a slow release vodka pellet then you might aswell buy a dosing pump for the money and come out paying much less in the long run.

I don't think you have anything to worry about as long as you add the recommended dosage. My earlier statement was reffering to another one that said you could add 50%-100% more than normal and be OK, but I am not to sure about that.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Originally Posted by luther1200

If this is true then what is the point? I thought the whole point of carbon dosing was to feed bacteria which take up N/P as they grow then get skimmed out. If they never leave the pellet surface how do they get skimmed out? Or do I have it confused somehow?

The assumption here is that the bacteria will slough off the pellets as they grow. If there is enough flow, I would guess this to be the case.

In my own experience, I have seen a significant increase in skimmate production since adding the pellets.

[luther1200]

So do you think that at least some of the bacteria is making it to the main water column?

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I think that is the point, that the bacteria grow and then are released from the pellets. That is why you put the pellets in a reactor next to a skimmer, so the bacteria can be efficiently removed.

[JonSadowsky]

Matt,

The tumbling in the reactor helps free the bacteria into the flow. I have adapted the output of my reactor so that it feeds my skimmer directly. I have noticed an increase in the skimmate and what I can only describe as a frothier head.

Jon

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by aninjaatemyshoe

I think that is the point, that the bacteria grow and then are released from the pellets. That is why you put the pellets in a reactor next to a skimmer, so the bacteria can be efficiently removed.

+1

tntneon

[DeepReefExotics]

My planned location for these is not next to my skimmer but a actually after it. I am guessing this is no good? Would the bacteria just end up back into my display and starve?

[luther1200]

Yes, do they have to be next to the skimmer? Does anybody think the bacteria become free floating so to speak, or is it just the "slough" that gets skimmed out?

[JonSadowsky]

Originally Posted by luther1200

Yes, do they have to be next to the skimmer? Does anybody think the bacteria become free floating so to speak, or is it just the "slough" that gets skimmed out?

From the manufacturers website: "The pellets will allow aerobic growth of bacteria which consequently will consume nitrate and phosphate simultaneously. The bacteria will use up the carbon from the BioPellets, whilst nitrogen and phosphorus are taken from the water as nitrate and (ortho)phosphate. This conversion of organic BioPellets (together with inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus) into microbial biomass is called immobilization... The surplus of bacteria will be consumed by filter and suspension feeding organisms such as sponges and corals, or skimmed off by a protein skimmer... We also suggest placing the outlet of the pellet filter in front of a protein skimmer, to limit the amount of bacteria entering the system."

So, according to the manufacturer the bacteria (microbal biomass) are "free floating" as you said.

I'll post a picture in the morning of the piece I made to direct the output of my reactor to the skimmer volute.

Jon

[tatuvaaj]

BioPellets will not dissolve in water and thus you can't really overdose them. My recommendation is to add enough + 1

[DeepReefExotics]

K ill add a little over what was recommended for my tank size to make sure there is enough VS too little.

[7hogwarts]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

BioPellets will not dissolve in water and thus you can't really overdose them. My recommendation is to add enough + 1

This is what I had originally wondered. The bacteria finds an equillibrium based on quantity of N and P needed to be consumed.

However, if that were not the case, could a calculator be made based on water volume-N levels-P levels? That would determine the amount of pellets to be added. Isn't the goal of the pellets to reduce Nitrate & Phosphate?

[Gomer]

wonder if you can add the media into the base of the skimmer.

[luther1200]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

BioPellets will not dissolve in water and thus you can't really overdose them. My recommendation is to add enough + 1

So you think you can add a grossly over rated amount and not have any problems? How can that be? I understand they don't dissolve in water, but the more you add the more carbon you add, correct? I also understand that the pellets will only feed the bacteria thats there, but won't they reproduce with an abundant food source? Please don't think I am trying to start an argument, I am just trying to learn

[aninjaatemyshoe]

Originally Posted by 7hogwarts

This is what I had originally wondered. The bacteria finds an equillibrium based on quantity of N and P needed to be consumed.

However, if that were not the case, could a calculator be made based on water volume-N levels-P levels? That would determine the amount of pellets to be added. Isn't the goal of the pellets to reduce Nitrate & Phosphate?

I doubt you could make a reliable calculation for this based only on the volume of water and N/P levels. Each tank is unique in terms of the rates of input and output of nutrients. In any given tank, there are a number of ways in which N and P are removed (anaerobic denitrification, uptake in algae, etc.). To some extent, the bacteria on the biopellets will compete with these other methods. Thus, it isn't simply a question of what levels of N and P you measure in your water, but a question of how much is added, how it is dealt with in the system, and how it is being removed. The balance of nutrients in a saltwater aquarium is a rather complex dynamic equilibrium, and a simple algorithm that can apply to all instances, even in a general sense, simply doesn't exist. In other words, you will need to make a guess and test it to see what is sufficient.

Originally Posted by luther1200

So you think you can add a grossly over rated amount and not have any problems? How can that be? I understand they don't dissolve in water, but the more you add the more carbon you add, correct? I also understand that the pellets will only feed the bacteria thats there, but won't they reproduce with an abundant food source? Please don't think I am trying to start an argument, I am just trying to learn

Assuming the carbon is only being released to and consumed by the bacteria on the pellets in a purely on-demand fashion, then you should be able to add far more than is necessary without problems. In practice, I wouldn't go too crazy. For one thing, this polymer is a type of PHA, which is a type of polyester. Any polyester is subject to some degree of hydrolysis, particularly in an alkali environment like a reef tank. Granted, the hydrolysis is likely to be very slow and probably negligible for our purposes, but it does mean that some small amount of carbon is being released beyond what is released enzymatically by the bacteria. For another, like anything else, we can't expect this product to be 100% pure - there is always going to be some impurity. Whatever the impurity, the more you add the more you risk exposing to your tank. Finally, this stuff isn't cheap, so why would someone want to put far more than is needed in their tank?

The most prudent strategy is to simply follow what the manufacturer suggests in terms amount of pellets/tank size (adjusting a little if you have a highly-fed tank), try it out, and see if more is necessary. Or, you could just follow other people's experience with it and go from there.

[DeepReefExotics]

My understanding from this thread and from the manufacture comments is that you can grossly overdose the amount of pellets and not have issues. The reason being that the bacteria will be limited by the amount of N and P so they will only consume and colonize enough of the pellets to exhaust the N and P in the water. The additional pellet surface area will thus just be wasted.

The only issue I see with this is that they are counting on the bacteria getting thick enough so that they fly off the pellets as the tumble and I can see how that would be harder to accomplish if you have 10x more surface area than you really need.

As far as carbon "overdosing" that shouldn’t be a problem because the carbon is locked up in the polymer of the pellet so with no bacteria breaking it down it should stay locked up in the pellets and wont leech back into the tank. This is the main sticking point for these pellets being worth the money or not. If they don’t truly stay inert in the water until the bacteria breaking them down then this would just be an expensive and dangerous vodka substitute.

My concern was a comment a previous poster made about brown algae blooming after adding the pellets but so far it has been the only report of this that I have seen so it could have just been a fluke. And again this is just what I have gathered from reading a few threads and some of the manufacturer statements. I haven’t gotten my order of pellets yet but I will post once I have some first hand XP with these but if they work like the say they do then this is a HUGE step forward for all reefers.

[DeepReefExotics]

I plan to add per the instructions and keep the extra i ordered to replace the eaten pellets as needed. Wanna stay on the safe side

[JonSadowsky]

Here is a couple of shots of the slip on piece I made to direct the output of the reactor to the skimmer input.

Right now I am running 500ml of pellets. I have another 500ml that should be here by Tuesday. My plan is to add them all at once (Guinea Pig Mode) and monitor the tanks reaction...

Jon

[fernandokng]

anyone actually notice that the bacteria grows on the pellets, and not on rocks, overflows, etc? that's the issue i'm having with vodka.

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by fernandokng

anyone actually notice that the bacteria grows on the pellets, and not on rocks, overflows, etc? that's the issue i'm having with vodka.

On the pellets you only see that they become more yellow after a few months , and i noticed that they shrunk a little bit.
but on the outside of the canister where water just flows in a film over the top into my sump i have a white bacterial film , especialy the surfaces that receives light (see image) , other then that i`ve never noticed bacterial build-up in display .

greetingzz tntneon

[fernandokng]

Did you have the film growing in the display BEFORE you started using the pellets? Some people never have the film buildup from the start...

Originally Posted by tntneon

On the pellets you only see that they become more yellow after a few months , and i noticed that they shrunk a little bit.
but on the outside of the canister where water just flows in a film over the top into my sump i have a white bacterial film , especialy the surfaces that receives light (see image) , other then that i`ve never noticed bacterial build-up in display .

greetingzz tntneon

[JonSadowsky]

Originally Posted by fernandokng

Did you have the film growing in the display BEFORE you started using the pellets?

Yes, I did. While dosing VSV it varied according to dosage and what mixtures I was using but it was always there to some extent.

I have noticed a definite decrease after tapering off the VSV.

At this point I would say that it was a 60% to 70% decrease and it seems to be getting better weekly.

It should be easy to see any change when I double the pellets next week. If that does cause an OD we will have learned something and the good thing is I can always remove the extra pellets. Cant do that with a Vodka OD...

Jon

[catman78]

Jon,

If that does cause an OD ....

Love the attitude. Waiting to hear you results before I order another 500 ml.

I started a week ago, 500 ml in my medium /heavy bioload 120.

How many gph are you running through your reactor?

[JonSadowsky]

Originally Posted by catman78

Jon,

How many gph are you running through your reactor?

The pump is a Maxi-Jet 1800 rated at 475 gph but it is also feeding my GFO reactor (maybe 50-70 gph).

I have no way of measuring the actual gph but I adjust the flow so that the pellets are gently moving from the bottom to the top of the heap. They are in almost constant smooth motion.

Every few days I open the flow valve WFO and give them a hard flush. Don't know if that makes any difference...

Jon

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by JonSadowsky

The pump is a Maxi-Jet 1800 rated at 475 gph but it is also feeding my GFO reactor (maybe 50-70 gph).

I have no way of measuring the actual gph but I adjust the flow so that the pellets are gently moving from the bottom to the top of the heap. They are in almost constant smooth motion.

Every few days I open the flow valve WFO and give them a hard flush. Don't know if that makes any difference...

Jon

sounds like a good set-up and practice .
because it`s an open canister with me i stir the bed hard sometimes , i also don`t know if it makes any difference but i feel good with it

greetingzz tntneon