Caribbean Biotope Seagrass Tank

[Michael Hoaster]

Whew, Sam, you scared me for a second! So you're adding a eurobrace to your tank? Why?

I don't think conchs pair-bond. They just use each other for a guey, sticky roll in the sand. I always thought that fighting conchs were named for their wild coupling antics. Of course in the confines of an aquarium, where they gonna go? It would be very special if they 'hooked up' and laid some eggs. They sell a mini conch species that lays eggs, at Indo-Pacific Sea Farms.

[Michael Hoaster]

JLynn, I was thinking maybe the mini ceriths and virgin nerites. I'll check out the asterinas. I think the blue tang and cherub angels will also help out.

If I ever get around to getting some live rock, it would cool with me if there are some coral hitchhikers. I'm sure what sponges I get will be confined to the mangrove root, shaded area of the tank. I do plan to put a caribbean anemone or two in there as well as a gornian or two.

[3D-Reef]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I'm curious, regarding your tank, how did you get your turtle grass through the earlier, establishing phase? You mentioned carbon dosing. Any other 'tricks' you could recommend? I'm anchoring any dead grass blades I find floating around, into the DSB, to help prepare the 'soil'. Do you have any recommendations for herbivores that eat algae off the grass blades?

Carbon dosing is about the only trick I have found that helps.Getting the associated bacteria started doing their thing is the most important part.IMO

One problem with using dead blades is the amount of lignin,and nutrient-bound cellulose,is high.So high that decomposition is limited and the amount of nutrients released is low.It has been found that decomposition on Tt blades only last a couple of years. In fact they found some blades estimated to be 12,500 years old that looked the same as the ones that had only been in the substrate for 3-4 years.
With this said,a build up of refactory nutrients (nutrients that cannot be broken down into Co2) is likely to start sulfide production.

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

And how's your tank doing? Any successes/miscues to report? I remember you said you found the glutamic acid pills and were going to try them out. Results? I pushed one deep into my DSB a while back. I suspect, since my sandbed was so new and loose, that ammonia leached out into the bulk water, kickstarting my nitrogen cycle. I may try adding some again, once the bed gets more rooted and packed down a bit. It seemed to work very well, in my near root-bound, freshwater planted tank.

I suspect my tank is carbon-limited right now. I do have some CO2 injection, but I think dosing with vinegar may be helpful. Thoughts?

Well...this year hasn't been a good one.After loosing My job,a couple of deaths in the family,and all of the time away from the tank taking care of business has My tank in need of some TLC.But now,I hope,everything will get back to normal and I can get back to My routine.

After I purchased the pills.I pushed one pill into the substrate up next to the glass so I could watch it.It didn't take long(a week or two) and it went completely anoxic turning the sand black with a little orange halo around it.
I consider it a successful failure.It didn't turn out like I had wanted,but I now know what not too do with an established grass bed.
A side note-After the pill had been in there a while I noticed that My brain coral,and the elegance coral,had started to recede and were unhappy.So I siphoned the sand out and replaced it with new.There may be some type of contaminate in the pill.Just saying.

IMO Co2 is good for autotrophic bacteria and nitrifcation.But it doesn't do much for heterotrophic bacteria,that use organic carbon like vinegar,to break down nitrate into a usable form.

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

So, I'll move one back up to the DSB, and we'll see how strong their attraction is, on the next exciting and titillating episode of "Forbidden Conch Love".

Make sure you check their ID and that they are of age before filming.

[3D-Reef]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

"Do you have any recommendations for herbivores that eat algae off the grass blades?"

The mini conchs from IPSF are good little snails and they reproduce like crazy.
The bristle-mouth tangs help in this matter as well.I don't care for the tomini one though.It's too aggressive IMO and will do more damage than good.Although I don't know if they will fit into Your theme of things.

Astraea snails are common among thick seagrass beds because they have so many different places to grab a hold of if they fall over.In a new tank with only a few plants they may not be able to do that.Other than that they are a good snail.

[sam.basye]

Michael, I'm making basically a 2x4 extension for the stand the tank is on bc it hangs over the back about an inch. And reinforce the shelving inside to support the load.

[Michael Hoaster]

First off, 3D, sorry to hear about your difficult year. Better times ahead!

Okay, you said some provocative stuff! To sum up, you're 'for' carbon dosing, 'against' leaf litter, glutamic acid, CO2, and I think macro algae, right?

Could you elaborate more on the macro algae? That one really kind of blows my mind. As I said I can see that they could be a nutrient load, sometimes, but I would have thought their 'net' effect would be to take up nutrients, rather than add to them.

Also the leaf litter thing. I thought it was critical for getting conditions right for the grass-helping bacteria. And the nutrients were cycled through the grasses and soil.

Do tell!

[Michael Hoaster]

I couldn't stop my canister filter from producing copious micro bubbles, so I shut it down.

I decided to finally turn on my main pump. Now that was interesting! All the red macros did a lap around the tank, and ended up about where they were before. Algae blew all around, so I played 'net the algae' for awhile. I also cleaned the grasses. The mollies were working hard, until they found some mellower current areas.

It's exciting to 'crank it up'! Feels like taking it up a notch, with much more current, it looks more real and natural to me. I think the grasses will like it too. I know manatee grass likes the tidal channels, where there are strong currents. A lot of algae don't like a lot of current, so that's good.

I'm happy with my plumbing design! Pretty simple, but I'm moving a lot of water, and the only parts visible are the slits in the left end wall. Also the the Reeflow Gold pump works wonderfully, handling throttling down well, and I can go higher or lower easily. I also adjusted the Tunze powerhead inside the fake root, to do the gyre flow. This thing works really well and it looks robust enough to last awhile, so I pronounce the fake mangrove root a success.

Tomorrow, the quarantine tank!

[Amphiprion]

I definitely agree on the leaf litter. That will eventually preclude the existence of many of the major infaunal animals, as most are not tolerant of anoxia and sulfide production. You will gradually see them gather closer and closer to the surface of the sand until they finally have nowhere to go and perish.

Water flow is definitely important. I don't have any recent pictures, as my tank doesn't look great aesthetically right now, but I am using an MP10 @ 100% and an MP40 @ 90% on a 40g and it definitely benefits the grasses. All the species I've tried thus far seem to appreciate very good flow as long as it doesn't tear blades--including Tt. On the other hand, many filamentous algae also benefit from higher water flow , so be prepared for that possibility as well.

[karimwassef]

I agree on the water flow. My algae (good and bad) grows significantly faster with more flow. It's like breathing.

[Michael Hoaster]

Yes, I noticed the filamentous algae thrives in strong current too. But cyanobacteria don't like it.

Amphiprion, just to be clear, you agree with 3D, that leaf litter accumulation would be bad. I thought it provided the 'food' for detrivores and on down the chain, to the roots of the grasses. So, I should keep the sand bed clean?

Thanks for chiming in! These discussions are invaluable!

[Michael Hoaster]

double post

[3D-Reef]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

First off, 3D, sorry to hear about your difficult year. Better times ahead!

Thank You kindly!

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Okay, you said some provocative stuff! To sum up, you're 'for' carbon dosing, 'against' leaf litter, glutamic acid, CO2, and I think macro algae, right?

Pretty much so.Against may be too strong of a word though.The only one I'd be against is leaf litter.I think glutamic acid may still have some value in a new bed,but, in an established bed with higher nutrients,it triggers sulfide production.
Macro algae may be a way adding nutrients in continuous small amounts.???Adjusting the amount of algae to meet the seagrass requirements in a new bed.???

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Could you elaborate more on the macro algae? That one really kind of blows my mind. As I said I can see that they could be a nutrient load, sometimes, but I would have thought their 'net' effect would be to take up nutrients, rather than add to them.

On an other forum there is a great thread called "algae:whats under the hood".Where we go deep into into the hows and whys of algae growth.In it we find that algae does three things compared to the water column nutrient load.
Higher nutrients than required by macro algae = new growth
Equivalent,or just enough nutrients = slow too no growth
Low nutrients = sacrifice some old algae cells untill an equivalent status is achieved

With algae your always playing 'catch-up',one step behind.This is why it is difficult to use a refuge to bring down nutrients lower than, lets say,what cyano can grow.Because when the nutrients are so low,the algae will release some more in an effort to bring the levels back up.

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Also the leaf litter thing. I thought it was critical for getting conditions right for the grass-helping bacteria. And the nutrients were cycled through the grasses and soil.

Do tell!

Do to advection,gravity,and the positive/negative charges of ions,nutrients will make their way down into the substrate next to the plants.The problem is,just like in the water column,that the bacteria require an organic carbon source.In an established grass bed the grass itself will produce the organic carbon used by the bacteria.
So if there is N and P in the water column its in the substrate too.The only difference is,the plants haven't started to produce said carbon too the bacteria yet.Thus the idea of carbon dosing to get them going.
Adding 'extra' nutrients by the way of leaf litter wouldn't do much.IMO The bacteria themselves should already be there on the roots.You just need to provide 'em with what they need.An organic carbon source until the plants can take over the job.

[3D-Reef]

[QUOTE=JLynn;23242144]According to [URL="https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/southflorida/seagrass/lifeinvert.htmlInterestingly enough, they also claim that small patches of stony corals are common in shallow T. testudinum beds (such as yours), whereas sponges are more common in deeper waters. The corals in the picture they have resemble Acropora.[/QUOTE]

I believe in the IRL they have staghorn corals growing in the grassbeds.Down in the Caribbean it's more common to have Porites. Christmas tree worm rocks and the like.Which makes since.All of the epiphytes producing larva,feeding the worms.Could be a welcome addition once everything has been established.

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Yes, I noticed the filamentous algae thrives in strong current too. But cyanobacteria don't like it.

Amphiprion, just to be clear, you agree with 3D, that leaf litter accumulation would be bad. I thought it provided the 'food' for detrivores and on down the chain, to the roots of the grasses. So, I should keep the sand bed clean?

Thanks for chiming in! These discussions are invaluable!

I would keep it as clean as reasonably possible, without much disturbance on your part. I don't let leaf litter settle and utilize the high water motion to my advantage. I also feed well with high export rates, so infaunal population is large and there is little to no leftover food. I basically treat it like any properly-maintained DSB. As far as leaf litter goes, it doesn't provide much nutrition and decay rates are incredibly slow. It just eventually serves to clog the bed and promote sulfide reduction, which is exactly what it does in real climax grass beds over time. I think for longevity's sake, it would be in your best interests to keep it as relatively clean as you can without sacrificing the nutritional needs of the grasses (which is fairly lean, as you say).

[Michael Hoaster]

Thanks, 3D. You've given me lots to think about.

Very interesting stuff about the macros. In my tank, with a very low bioload, the macros are a 'burden' then. At some point down the line, when I have much more fish (and higher nutrients), they will 'help', removing nutrients and growing.

I may move some into my quarantine tank today. By removing this nutrient 'source', I hope to reduce cyanobacteria and the filamentous algae, which are receding somewhat already, with the cycling ending.

I also found it interesting that our glutamic acid experiments lead us to different conclusions. I found no evidence it helped my new grasses/sandbed. But my tank was cycling, so maybe the newly establishing bacteria got to it first? Do you think, now that my tank has cycled, it would benefit the grasses? And what is your opinion of dosing the various nitrate solutions for grass growth? I've read the grasses prefer ammonia to nitrate, but you risk algae blooms.

To summarize my situation, I have seagrasses that are slowly taking hold and slowly growing. So, I'm kind of happy. What I'd like to happen is for the grasses to grow and multiply more rapidly, without rapid algae growth.

What would you suggest? Carbon dosing?

[Michael Hoaster]

Amphiprion, that's great information, thanks.

I get so caught up, trying to emulate nature, that I sometimes forget that, no matter how 'natural' our tanks may be, they are still artificial, closed systems. So things like leaf litter accumulation, are a luxury we can't afford so much, if we want to sustain ideal conditions in our little boxes.

The higher flow rates I have now will definitely help keep the dead blades from settling, and they're easy enough to catch.

"I also feed well with high export rates, so infaunal population is large and there is little to no leftover food."

Who are you feeding and what? How are you exporting? Pruning? Skimming?

[3D-Reef]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Thanks, 3D. You've given me lots to think about.

Very interesting stuff about the macros. In my tank, with a very low bioload, the macros are a 'burden' then. At some point down the line, when I have much more fish (and higher nutrients), they will 'help', removing nutrients and growing.

I may move some into my quarantine tank today. By removing this nutrient 'source', I hope to reduce cyanobacteria and the filamentous algae, which are receding somewhat already, with the cycling ending.

I also found it interesting that our glutamic acid experiments lead us to different conclusions. I found no evidence it helped my new grasses/sandbed. But my tank was cycling, so maybe the newly establishing bacteria got to it first? Do you think, now that my tank has cycled, it would benefit the grasses? And what is your opinion of dosing the various nitrate solutions for grass growth? I've read the grasses prefer ammonia to nitrate, but you risk algae blooms.

To summarize my situation, I have seagrasses that are slowly taking hold and slowly growing. So, I'm kind of happy. What I'd like to happen is for the grasses to grow and multiply more rapidly, without rapid algae growth.

What would you suggest? Carbon dosing?

Carbon dosing will help with the bacteria,but as far as the grass is concern...relax and enjoy.Out of all the tanks I have set up over the years the quickest My turtlegrass has ever put up new shoots is two months.And You have another two weeks to go to reach that point.

[Michael Hoaster]

Right on. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

Amphiprion, that's great information, thanks.

I get so caught up, trying to emulate nature, that I sometimes forget that, no matter how 'natural' our tanks may be, they are still artificial, closed systems. So things like leaf litter accumulation, are a luxury we can't afford so much, if we want to sustain ideal conditions in our little boxes.

The higher flow rates I have now will definitely help keep the dead blades from settling, and they're easy enough to catch.

"I also feed well with high export rates, so infaunal population is large and there is little to no leftover food."

Who are you feeding and what? How are you exporting? Pruning? Skimming?

Nothing particularly noteworthy--just ON formula one pellets and Rod's food (original). I'm simply generous on the portions to make sure the fish are well fed--the mix of particle sizes does the rest for me. Yes, I do use an oversized skimmer to offset the increase in refractory substances in the water, along with carbon and GFO. The latter is changed out about once monthly and I'm not particularly religious with it. I remove dead/dying leaves as another form of export, along with the very occasional water change of 25% or so. One thing to note is that I have perpetual dinoflagellates and if I strip the water too much, everything else suffers and dinoflagellates begin taking over, which kills even more things.

[Michael Hoaster]

I did a quick look-up on dinoflagellates, and came across this article. It discusses using elevated PH to get rid of them. I'm guessing you've already looked into this, but you never know…

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

I was putting some GFO in my canister, but then the micro bubble issue cropped up and I could not figure out how to stop them, so no GFO.

I got my quarantine tank up and running last night. It's like a 29gal tall, I think. Two little AquaClear power filters fired right up after cleaning. I've had them for years. They can take all manner of abuse and keep on ticking. Pored sand right into the water, so it's gonna be cloudy for awhile. I'll move the mollies in there to keep the bio filter 'primed'. I added a little ammonia to start the cycle.

This will be a fully functioning tank. Not a sterile tank with no sand and just a few pieces of PVC. Those tanks are great for medicating sick fish, but aesthetically, yuck. I want it to be a cozy, comfy, natural setting for new fish to experience very low stress and low to no competition for food. I think it's a better option for bringing these wild creatures into out homes. Plus I can add medications if needed.

[Amphiprion]

Originally Posted by Michael Hoaster

I did a quick look-up on dinoflagellates, and came across this article. It discusses using elevated PH to get rid of them. I'm guessing you've already looked into this, but you never know…

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

I was putting some GFO in my canister, but then the micro bubble issue cropped up and I could not figure out how to stop them, so no GFO.

I got my quarantine tank up and running last night. It's like a 29gal tall, I think. Two little AquaClear power filters fired right up after cleaning. I've had them for years. They can take all manner of abuse and keep on ticking. Pored sand right into the water, so it's gonna be cloudy for awhile. I'll move the mollies in there to keep the bio filter 'primed'. I added a little ammonia to start the cycle.

This will be a fully functioning tank. Not a sterile tank with no sand and just a few pieces of PVC. Those tanks are great for medicating sick fish, but aesthetically, yuck. I want it to be a cozy, comfy, natural setting for new fish to experience very low stress and low to no competition for food. I think it's a better option for bringing these wild creatures into out homes. Plus I can add medications if needed.

Yes, tried the above to no avail. Sadly, if P04 gets too high, I start having issues with Lyngbya :P, so I can't particularly win one way or another. The latter was actually introduced with my seagrasses and is common in meadows in the wild.

[Michael Hoaster]

Rock and a hard place… I kind of know what you mean. Hitchhikers I've found so far include, sea hares, flatworms, and aiptasia anemones. I'm thinking I should have done some kind of dip to prevent this. There were tiny aiptasias on one of the cerith snails!

[Michael Hoaster]

JLynn, I stopped by my LFS today, just for fun. Came across a tank with asterina stars on the glass. On closer inspection of another tank I found some tiny snails. Bought some of both, cheap! I've been looking for janitors small enough to clean the seagrass blades.

I do buy a lot of stuff online, but having a few sources locally, is very nice. And you never know what you might find!

The snails are unknown, but they were born in the dealer's tank, so they reproduce in captivity, which is cool with me!

The stars can reach plague proportions, but they equalize with their food source, so I should be good. I've had them before and they never got out of hand.

Got the drip acclimation going…

[Michael Hoaster]

I'm rethinking on the asterinas. Maybe I should ere on the side of caution.

The more I read about them, the more I doubt I should add them intentionally.

Maybe just the snails.

[Michael Hoaster]

Just checked, the snails are not pyramid snails. They have more of an astrea shape.