LED as main light - Page 20

Frisco · 04/23/2004, 09:20 AM

LOL - you do this sort of stuff too, eh? No I don't think you can get good SHG with LEDs because of the spectral bandwidth and low brightness (although that's not really my area of expertise by any means), not to mention the cost implications. I actually work on frequency converted GaAs lasers these days, so it's funny that you bring this up. From what I understand, it's really tough to double a edge emitting diode laser because the photon density inside the doubling crystal is not sufficient, so I think a LED would not work at all (but again, I'm not a nonlinear optics guy at all). We do it with an external cavity VCSEL type of device (which works pretty well and overcomes the photon density problem with other approaches), and for example, you can take a 976nm GaAs based laser and use the LBO/BBO to get 488nm blue light out or double it again to get 244nm UV light. With this type of approach, you can exploit the wide wavelength range of GaAs and use it was a workaround for the problems with UV and visible materials like GaN (or even worse, the complexity of D-UV excimer and other lasers). Harmonic generation is very common with Nd:YAG and other DPSS lasers but fairly new to semiconductor lasers. The big driver for these types of devices are laser based displays, in which you'd make a RGB source (532nm green, 460nm blue, and 635nm red) for the TV or projector. Aside the technical challenges, there are some pretty hefty cost implications, because a mW level doubled 460nm laser like we make sells for $5-10k.

Frisco · 04/23/2004, 09:29 AM

I wasn't actually talking about doping levels, and you're basically right, even in single crystal materials like I work with, although the dopants do preferentially go into subsitutional sites in the crystal lattice (Ie, the dopant will almost always replace either a Group III or Group V atom, and it depends on the atomic size and other parameters), they are basically randomly distributed. Keep in mind that dopants are typically at concentrations 6-8 orders of magnitude lower than the main elements. ALso bear in mind that I'm not a Si semiconductor guy at all.

Gomer · 04/23/2004, 09:33 AM

Yes, I suppose we have something in common

I use lasers in my lab all the time. running a precission II 1064NdYAG, a powerlight NdYAG, Spectra vision(?) tunable IR opo/opa and working on building a tunable UV opo.

but I supose we shouldn't get too far off tangent with this thread *L*

-_Tony

sandisct · 04/23/2004, 10:11 AM

wow..... technical talk........

Abynum1 · 04/23/2004, 12:15 PM

When you guys get this figured out could you post the results in english for those of us who don't work on the space shuttle?

Gomer · 04/23/2004, 12:19 PM

hehe. pictures will come when I get my drivers...hopefully next week

mingzen · 04/23/2004, 03:57 PM

wow, i'm starting to finally remember a semester of semiconductor physics . . . except we didnt' worry one bit about crystal structure, AND i was a lousy student! though i always thought that the light emission had less to do with atom distribution as it was electron bandgaps that controlled the wavelength. or are they inter-related?

BigCrowd42 · 04/23/2004, 07:48 PM

I first wan't to say this idea is so COOL!! I think your on to something.Sandisct You really got people thinking here ,Good Job. Now for the Humor part.This is the longest thread I have read.Heck I actually stopped reading this when the replies reached the 10K mark.Holy #$&#!!. Maybe SLS or one of the other Big Boys will do the math for us then we can copy it HA HA!!!

sfsuphysics · 04/23/2004, 08:14 PM

I was doing my Master's thesis work on silicon solar cells until I got to a point where I didn't care anymore

, and decided to just do the Orals, so I still remember a few things from semiconductor construction, nice to know they finally popped up!

Gomer · 04/23/2004, 08:30 PM

Another comparison...still not a fair one

The top picture is a 7watt Azoo Palm light 7100K
The bottom is 7x 1watt luxeon stars that are ONLY driven at 115ma, NOT their rated value (and value that I will drive at when I get the drivers) of 350 ma.

hope this is starting to shed light on the issue

sfsuphysics · 04/23/2004, 09:51 PM

hmm they don't look terribly different. And considering LEDs are NOT linear (ie half the current gives you way less then half the illumination) you might burn a hole though that tank

sandisct · 04/25/2004, 04:14 AM

YEAH.... just completed my light control....

a very simple one though.... add a night light controller to it. now my blue light will remain on throughout while my white light will turn on when the sun light hit the photocell circuit....

haha..... wonder what's next.....

Think i'll concentrate on the peltier chiller next... then all the lights and chiller will be running of 1 single computer powersupply... yahoo!!

niko5 · 04/25/2004, 09:39 AM

sandisct,
On your final arrays could you take a picture of the bottom of one of them? Im just curious how it looks.

Thanks

sandisct · 04/25/2004, 07:35 PM

here you go.....

fitti69 · 04/25/2004, 10:19 PM

Hey Gomer , Ill take a CO2 over a YAG anyday....lol....MAZAK all the way baby,,,hehe......can you say HeNe ?

niko5 · 04/25/2004, 10:22 PM

Thanks sandisct. Where did you get the little boards you have the LED's on and are they wired tougher in that board somehow or do you have a bunch of wires and stuff connection them all?

Gomer · 04/26/2004, 07:40 AM

ya, but a CO2 won't do 1064 for pumping a doubled OPO/OPA for pulsed cavity ringdown

Gomer · 04/27/2004, 11:50 PM

Anyone have any preliminary growth results?

I'm still waiting on shipping from canada...so I have nothing new to report

Jimbo69 · 04/28/2004, 02:15 AM

Phew just read all the post's. I've been visiting www.superbriteleds.com and they have some pretty cool spot lights. 24 led puts out 18 lumens for $13 bucks.

I already have a 400w 20kk bulb over my tank but wanted to adds some color spots. I wonder is the circuit boards for the 24 led is available somewere. I've hunted the net and can not find any blank boards anywhere. But they are being used for auto lights all over the place. Please let me know if you've found any.

For instance I would like a 24 led board with 16 white, 4 red or orange and 4 uv to highlight my cat's paw. I was thinking of adding about 5-10 of these spotlights to my 40g tank.

Jimbo69 · 04/28/2004, 02:15 AM

Phew just read all the post's. I've been visiting www.superbriteleds.com and they have some pretty cool spot lights. 24 led puts out 18 lumens for $13 bucks.

I already have a 400w 20kk bulb over my tank but wanted to adds some color spots. I wonder is the circuit boards for the 24 led is available somewere. I've hunted the net and can not find any blank boards anywhere. But they are being used for auto lights all over the place. Please let me know if you've found any.

For instance I would like a 24 led board with 16 white, 4 red or orange and 4 uv to highlight my cat's paw. I was thinking of adding about 5-10 of these spotlights to my 40g tank.

bzzbee2 · 04/28/2004, 08:14 AM

well.. your probably giong to want different circuits for each color as they may require different voltages and therefore will need different resistance. as far as the boards go.. try radioshack. they have some large chunks that you can cut. but you will probably have to make the contacts on the backside of the board by yourself...

MadTownMax · 04/28/2004, 09:54 AM

Jimbo 69 - before you put a lot of effort into using some of the superbright LEDs, you might want to find one of those superbright key-chain lights or something similar and cheap, you probably won't be able to notice the light it produces next to the Halides, FWIW check out the japonese tank threads - they use 70W metal halide "spot lights" for accenting their tank's corals, quite elaborate set-ups.

These Luxeons may actually be able to be "seen" next to a halide, although the only color they come in is white, or soft white (UFOs) -

good luck!

Jimbo69 · 04/28/2004, 12:18 PM

Hi thanks for the response.

Been thinking of lumens per square inch that my 20kk xm puts out.

The surface area of my 40g tank 36"x15.5" is 558sq"
Considering the output of a 20kk 400 watt bulb where probally only looking at 10,000 lumens or less actually striking the surface area. So there would be 18 lumens per square inch. On the edges of a 3 foot tank the light is probally only 8 lumens per square inch and closer to the center 35 lumens per square inch.

Now a 48 led spot would put out a spot of 2sq" so that would be 10 lumens per sq" Red/Orange Led produce more lumens. So I think for edge lighting you would definitly be able to see the spot. The idea of mixing led's should not be a big problem as long as there electrical specifications are close, you may have to over drive some them slightly.

Gomer · 04/28/2004, 12:55 PM

UFO's are Luxeon CLONES, not the real thing. ..and I am not sure they are as good.

Luxeons DO come in all sorts of colors, not just white and softwhite.

A luxeon with the columating lense is VERY VERY intense.

psycho_clown · 04/28/2004, 02:57 PM

Can't wait to see how far this thread will go. And getting good info so keep up the good work reefers.

04/23/2004, 09:20 AM	#476
Frisco Premium Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 5,245	LOL - you do this sort of stuff too, eh? No I don't think you can get good SHG with LEDs because of the spectral bandwidth and low brightness (although that's not really my area of expertise by any means), not to mention the cost implications. I actually work on frequency converted GaAs lasers these days, so it's funny that you bring this up. From what I understand, it's really tough to double a edge emitting diode laser because the photon density inside the doubling crystal is not sufficient, so I think a LED would not work at all (but again, I'm not a nonlinear optics guy at all). We do it with an external cavity VCSEL type of device (which works pretty well and overcomes the photon density problem with other approaches), and for example, you can take a 976nm GaAs based laser and use the LBO/BBO to get 488nm blue light out or double it again to get 244nm UV light. With this type of approach, you can exploit the wide wavelength range of GaAs and use it was a workaround for the problems with UV and visible materials like GaN (or even worse, the complexity of D-UV excimer and other lasers). Harmonic generation is very common with Nd:YAG and other DPSS lasers but fairly new to semiconductor lasers. The big driver for these types of devices are laser based displays, in which you'd make a RGB source (532nm green, 460nm blue, and 635nm red) for the TV or projector. Aside the technical challenges, there are some pretty hefty cost implications, because a mW level doubled 460nm laser like we make sells for $5-10k. __________________ Gone but not forgotten Current Tank Info: In Between Tanks

04/23/2004, 09:29 AM	#477
Frisco Premium Member Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 5,245	I wasn't actually talking about doping levels, and you're basically right, even in single crystal materials like I work with, although the dopants do preferentially go into subsitutional sites in the crystal lattice (Ie, the dopant will almost always replace either a Group III or Group V atom, and it depends on the atomic size and other parameters), they are basically randomly distributed. Keep in mind that dopants are typically at concentrations 6-8 orders of magnitude lower than the main elements. ALso bear in mind that I'm not a Si semiconductor guy at all. __________________ Gone but not forgotten Current Tank Info: In Between Tanks

04/23/2004, 12:19 PM	#481
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	hehe. pictures will come when I get my drivers...hopefully next week __________________ -Tony

04/23/2004, 03:57 PM	#482
mingzen Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: California Posts: 81	wow, i'm starting to finally remember a semester of semiconductor physics . . . except we didnt' worry one bit about crystal structure, AND i was a lousy student! though i always thought that the light emission had less to do with atom distribution as it was electron bandgaps that controlled the wavelength. or are they inter-related? __________________ oof i just saw my credit card bill Current Tank Info: 35 acrylic hex. w/ 1 last-stand soft coral and still too many fish (they just won't die!)

04/23/2004, 07:48 PM	#483
BigCrowd42 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: LondonDerry NH Posts: 76	I first wan't to say this idea is so COOL!! I think your on to something.Sandisct You really got people thinking here ,Good Job. Now for the Humor part.This is the longest thread I have read.Heck I actually stopped reading this when the replies reached the 10K mark.Holy #$&#!!. Maybe SLS or one of the other Big Boys will do the math for us then we can copy it HA HA!!! __________________ Aquatically Challenged

04/23/2004, 09:33 AM	#478
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	Yes, I suppose we have something in common I use lasers in my lab all the time. running a precission II 1064NdYAG, a powerlight NdYAG, Spectra vision(?) tunable IR opo/opa and working on building a tunable UV opo. but I supose we shouldn't get too far off tangent with this thread L -_Tony

04/23/2004, 10:11 AM	#479
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	wow..... technical talk........

04/23/2004, 12:15 PM	#480
Abynum1 Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ellisville, Ms Posts: 469	When you guys get this figured out could you post the results in english for those of us who don't work on the space shuttle?

04/23/2004, 08:14 PM	#484
sfsuphysics Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 9,103	I was doing my Master's thesis work on silicon solar cells until I got to a point where I didn't care anymore , and decided to just do the Orals, so I still remember a few things from semiconductor construction, nice to know they finally popped up! __________________ Mike

04/23/2004, 08:30 PM	#485
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	Another comparison...still not a fair one The top picture is a 7watt Azoo Palm light 7100K The bottom is 7x 1watt luxeon stars that are ONLY driven at 115ma, NOT their rated value (and value that I will drive at when I get the drivers) of 350 ma. hope this is starting to shed light on the issue

04/23/2004, 09:51 PM	#486
sfsuphysics Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 9,103	hmm they don't look terribly different. And considering LEDs are NOT linear (ie half the current gives you way less then half the illumination) you might burn a hole though that tank __________________ Mike

04/25/2004, 04:14 AM	#487
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	YEAH.... just completed my light control.... a very simple one though.... add a night light controller to it. now my blue light will remain on throughout while my white light will turn on when the sun light hit the photocell circuit.... haha..... wonder what's next..... Think i'll concentrate on the peltier chiller next... then all the lights and chiller will be running of 1 single computer powersupply... yahoo!!

04/25/2004, 09:39 AM	#488
niko5 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 2,813	sandisct, On your final arrays could you take a picture of the bottom of one of them? Im just curious how it looks. Thanks __________________ Nick Current Tank Info: 125 Gal Oceanic RR 2 250 Watt Icecap w/ Hamelton 14K

04/25/2004, 07:35 PM	#489
sandisct Moved On Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 133	here you go.....

04/25/2004, 10:19 PM	#490
fitti69 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Detroit Suburbs Posts: 343	Hey Gomer , Ill take a CO2 over a YAG anyday....lol....MAZAK all the way baby,,,hehe......can you say HeNe ? __________________ Proud to be a SquareHead Current Tank Info: 32 cube , 400w XM 20k , 75w VHO , 20g sump , Euro Reef ES 5-3, 2 Sieo 620's , Mag 5 return

04/25/2004, 10:22 PM	#491
niko5 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 2,813	Thanks sandisct. Where did you get the little boards you have the LED's on and are they wired tougher in that board somehow or do you have a bunch of wires and stuff connection them all? __________________ Nick Current Tank Info: 125 Gal Oceanic RR 2 250 Watt Icecap w/ Hamelton 14K

04/26/2004, 07:40 AM	#492
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	ya, but a CO2 won't do 1064 for pumping a doubled OPO/OPA for pulsed cavity ringdown __________________ -Tony

04/27/2004, 11:50 PM	#493
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	Anyone have any preliminary growth results? I'm still waiting on shipping from canada...so I have nothing new to report __________________ -Tony

04/28/2004, 02:15 AM	#494
Jimbo69 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Forest Grove Oregon, near Portland Posts: 18	Phew just read all the post's. I've been visiting www.superbriteleds.com and they have some pretty cool spot lights. 24 led puts out 18 lumens for $13 bucks. I already have a 400w 20kk bulb over my tank but wanted to adds some color spots. I wonder is the circuit boards for the 24 led is available somewere. I've hunted the net and can not find any blank boards anywhere. But they are being used for auto lights all over the place. Please let me know if you've found any. For instance I would like a 24 led board with 16 white, 4 red or orange and 4 uv to highlight my cat's paw. I was thinking of adding about 5-10 of these spotlights to my 40g tank. __________________ Shocked too many times! Current Tank Info: 40g 400 watt xm 20kk 10 frags 2 false percula shrimp BB

04/28/2004, 02:15 AM	#495
Jimbo69 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Forest Grove Oregon, near Portland Posts: 18	Phew just read all the post's. I've been visiting www.superbriteleds.com and they have some pretty cool spot lights. 24 led puts out 18 lumens for $13 bucks. I already have a 400w 20kk bulb over my tank but wanted to adds some color spots. I wonder is the circuit boards for the 24 led is available somewere. I've hunted the net and can not find any blank boards anywhere. But they are being used for auto lights all over the place. Please let me know if you've found any. For instance I would like a 24 led board with 16 white, 4 red or orange and 4 uv to highlight my cat's paw. I was thinking of adding about 5-10 of these spotlights to my 40g tank. __________________ Shocked too many times! Current Tank Info: 40g 400 watt xm 20kk 10 frags 2 false percula shrimp BB

04/28/2004, 08:14 AM	#496
bzzbee2 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: sacramento Posts: 419	well.. your probably giong to want different circuits for each color as they may require different voltages and therefore will need different resistance. as far as the boards go.. try radioshack. they have some large chunks that you can cut. but you will probably have to make the contacts on the backside of the board by yourself...

04/28/2004, 09:54 AM	#497
MadTownMax ***erately knowledgable Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Appleton, WI Posts: 2,750 Blog Entries: 1	Jimbo 69 - before you put a lot of effort into using some of the superbright LEDs, you might want to find one of those superbright key-chain lights or something similar and cheap, you probably won't be able to notice the light it produces next to the Halides, FWIW check out the japonese tank threads - they use 70W metal halide "spot lights" for accenting their tank's corals, quite elaborate set-ups. These Luxeons may actually be able to be "seen" next to a halide, although the only color they come in is white, or soft white (UFOs) - good luck!

04/28/2004, 12:18 PM	#498
Jimbo69 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Forest Grove Oregon, near Portland Posts: 18	Hi thanks for the response. Been thinking of lumens per square inch that my 20kk xm puts out. The surface area of my 40g tank 36"x15.5" is 558sq" Considering the output of a 20kk 400 watt bulb where probally only looking at 10,000 lumens or less actually striking the surface area. So there would be 18 lumens per square inch. On the edges of a 3 foot tank the light is probally only 8 lumens per square inch and closer to the center 35 lumens per square inch. Now a 48 led spot would put out a spot of 2sq" so that would be 10 lumens per sq" Red/Orange Led produce more lumens. So I think for edge lighting you would definitly be able to see the spot. The idea of mixing led's should not be a big problem as long as there electrical specifications are close, you may have to over drive some them slightly. __________________ Shocked too many times! Current Tank Info: 40g 400 watt xm 20kk 10 frags 2 false percula shrimp BB

04/28/2004, 12:55 PM	#499
Gomer Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SF Posts: 1,049	UFO's are Luxeon CLONES, not the real thing. ..and I am not sure they are as good. Luxeons DO come in all sorts of colors, not just white and softwhite. A luxeon with the columating lense is VERY VERY intense. __________________ -Tony

04/28/2004, 02:57 PM	#500
psycho_clown Moved On Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 325	Can't wait to see how far this thread will go. And getting good info so keep up the good work reefers.