New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by slief

I wouldn't have expected the low power issues with the Vectra. When I first replied to his comment/question, I replied based on the low current concerns but edited my reply thinking that couldn't possibly be what you were talking about due to the Vectra's power consumption.

Frankly, I am really surprised because I would have thought it would draw enough current for the triacs unlike the smaller dosing pumps. Since you are using the Vectra with the Apex, you should try using an inline GFCI outlet and see if that solves the issue. They are readily available at places like Lowes and Home Depot. That is often a suitable workaround for the low current issue that is typical with the triacs. Only caviat is that the variable speed nature of the Vectra could trip the GFCI as that is a very common issue with GFCI's and variable speed pumps.

Was surprised too. The inline GFI is a good idea. I am thinking the low power issue must be borderline and there may be folks who are able to use the Vectra on the auto position. Is theere anyone who has their Vortex hooked up to their Apex and can they control them with the non 4-8 outlets?

RJ

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by slief

I wouldn't have expected the low power issues with the Vectra. When I first replied to his comment/question, I replied based on the low current concerns but edited my reply thinking that couldn't possibly be what you were talking about due to the Vectra's power consumption.

Frankly, I am really surprised because I would have thought it would draw enough current for the triacs unlike the smaller dosing pumps. Since you are using the Vectra with the Apex, you should try using an inline GFCI outlet and see if that solves the issue. They are readily available at places like Lowes and Home Depot. That is often a suitable workaround for the low current issue that is typical with the triacs. Only caviat is that the variable speed nature of the Vectra could trip the GFCI as that is a very common issue with GFCI's and variable speed pumps.

No problems with my Vectra tripping the GFCI like I had with the RD3. I still haven't changed my breaker. I did stop using my 10v for the RD3 as it was causing issues, but I just put it on one of the relays and will try using the 10v again to see if that makes a difference.

[daquan44]

Wow! I didn't think that the Vectra's power consumption would be a concern for the EB8. Like I said, I have mines on outlet #1, and it turns on and off 4 times a day. So far no issues, but that doesn't mean it is impossible.

I have not tried to pair the Vectra with the WXM yet.

[Johnseye]

I had been running my Vectra on my Lifereef skimmer at 60% for a week and the temp wouldn't get over 82F at that output. 60% is supposed to be 60w for the Vectra. I purchased a Fluval SP4 rated at 88w. It's an AC pump so no changes in output. I ran that for 3 days and the temp peaked to about 81F each night. Then I put the Vectra back in and ran it at 100%, which is supposed to be 80w for 2 nights. The temp climbed higher each evening and didn't cool as much during lights out. It peaked at 83.4F before I lowered the output to 70% or 67w. That's where it is now at the end of the graph.

I was not running a canopy fan during the time with the Fluval. Only a small 120mm fan in the sump. When the Vectra climbed up to 82F I turned on a canopy fan and stuck a larger fan to blow air into the sump. Temp still climbed.

Ambient room temp has stayed consistent at 76F.

You can see from the graph where I swapped out the Vectra for the Fluval on the 22nd. There were consistent steady peaks and valleys from the Fluval. Then you can see where I swapped the Vectra back in on the 26th. Not so consistent with climbing peaks and shallow valleys.

I understand 80w is 80w but I question how ESL is reporting the wattage used by the pump. Whether what's displayed is just a percentage displayed based on selected percentage, or the actual wattage measured by the controller I don't know. I am guessing it's not actual wattage, but that's just a guess. My wattage at the wall is 91w. This is just a guess, but I don't think the controller is using 11w. I have no way to prove this and it is purely my opinion.

Fact is, for my aquarium and what I'm running, the Vectra at 100% heats it up too much. 88w from the Fluval is the border of what the tank can handle and even that is too hot for my liking. Keep in mind, these pumps are running a skimmer with next to 0 head loss and my tank has different equipment in it than yours. If you're using it for a return or CL then maybe the pump won't exhibit the same characteristics.

What strikes me as odd is that a pump with a higher rated wattage creates less heat. There is something missing in this story, I just don't what it is.

[CoralNerd]

What happened to the idea of just sending it to Ecotech and having them check it out?

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

What happened to the idea of just sending it to Ecotech and having them check it out?

Marks/EcoTech didn't show any interest in checking it out. He suggested going through BRS who I bought it from. BRS would check it out, but based on what I told them it was running normally. I'm not paying for shipping back and forth for them to tell me it's running normally, which it probably is.

[rjallen]

John
I really don't have an answer but I do have a couple of thoughts. Guess most of us have had a lemon of some type. Not bad enough to return, just bad enough to cause headaches.

I had been running my Vectra on my Lifereef skimmer at 60% for a week and the temp wouldn't get over 82F at that output. 60% is supposed to be 60w for the Vectra. I purchased a Fluval SP4 rated at 88w. It's an AC pump so no changes in output. I ran that for 3 days and the temp peaked to about 81F each night. Then I put the Vectra back in and ran it at 100%, which is supposed to be 80w for 2 nights. The temp climbed higher each evening and didn't cool as much during lights out. It peaked at 83.4F before I lowered the output to 70% or 67w. That's where it is now at the end of the graph.

As I mentioned earlier. Tim M. claimed in the Jake Adams interview the pump, once speed/ flow is set and actually exceed that to maintain the flow. If you get algae stuck, the pump would automatically speed up to keep the flow at desired gph. Good in most cases but I wonder if your type of skimmer can change resistance against this flow. It would make the pump constantly "adjust the energy needed up and down" Yes Mr. Marks said in the above case the pump could, for short periods exceed the designed 100% speed which would increase power consumption and heat. This is all just a guess but something that would answer some of your findings. I seem to remember you or someone talking with Eco Tech said the Vectra could power skimmers but it was not the best use of the Vectra?

I was not running a canopy fan during the time with the Fluval. Only a small 120mm fan in the sump. When the Vectra climbed up to 82F I turned on a canopy fan and stuck a larger fan to blow air into the sump. Temp still climbed.

Ambient room temp has stayed consistent at 76F.

You can see from the graph where I swapped out the Vectra for the Fluval on the 22nd. There were consistent steady peaks and valleys from the Fluval. Then you can see where I swapped the Vectra back in on the 26th. Not so consistent with climbing peaks and shallow valleys.

I understand 80w is 80w but I question how ESL is reporting the wattage used by the pump. Whether what's displayed is just a percentage displayed based on selected percentage, or the actual wattage measured by the controller I don't know. I am guessing it's not actual wattage, but that's just a guess. My wattage at the wall is 91w. This is just a guess, but I don't think the controller is using 11w. I have no way to prove this and it is purely my opinion.

Look at the heat sink on the back of the controller. All those pretty LEDs that stay on 24/7 when the pump is controlled by EcoSmartLive give out some heat as well. I am thinking 10 watts may not be too much in this case. Like you, this is just a guess.

Fact is, for my aquarium and what I'm running, the Vectra at 100% heats it up too much. 88w from the Fluval is the border of what the tank can handle and even that is too hot for my liking. Keep in mind, these pumps are running a skimmer with next to 0 head loss and my tank has different equipment in it than yours. If you're using it for a return or CL then maybe the pump won't exhibit the same characteristics.

I think that might be the case.

What strikes me as odd is that a pump with a higher rated wattage creates less heat. There is something missing in this story, I just don't what it is.

I am disappointed Eco Tech is not interested in working with you. BRS is not a repair facility for Eco Tech. I just read the warranty and you are supposed to contact Eco Tech. So I don't understand. I think you have the right to send it back, on your dime, for evaluation if the pump is under warranty. I may come back with a "nothing wrong" verdict and you are out the shipping costs but if you feel the pump is putting out excessive heat.

Good luck and keep us posted.

RJ

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by Johnseye

Fact is, for my aquarium and what I'm running, the Vectra at 100% heats it up too much. 88w from the Fluval is the border of what the tank can handle and even that is too hot for my liking. Keep in mind, these pumps are running a skimmer with next to 0 head loss and my tank has different equipment in it than yours. If you're using it for a return or CL then maybe the pump won't exhibit the same characteristics.

An AC pump rated at 88w will only draw 88w when head is zero and flow is max. The more head pressure you apply (as when used to power a skimmer), the more the flow drops and the more the power drops as well.

Without a watt meter used to measure the power of the AC pump, this test doesn't say anything.

Marks/EcoTech didn't show any interest in checking it out. He suggested going through BRS who I bought it from. BRS would check it out, but based on what I told them it was running normally. I'm not paying for shipping back and forth for them to tell me it's running normally, which it probably is.

This is not a fair description of our conversation. You did not ask me if you could send it back for evaluation. Of course you can. You only asked me if you could RETURN the pump. I cannot authorize a return as I did not sell the pump, BRS did. This is standard operating procedure for any OEM in our industry.

John- I want you to be happy with your product. However I cannot make the Vectra the right fit for your aquarium. I told you in the beginning that if you wanted to return the product then the best bet is to pursue a return through BRS. I am not familiar with BRS's return policies (and their website doesn't seem to be working right now), but most vendors allow you to return something with no questions asked within 30days. Consumers are allowed to change their mind and do not need a reason to return something. I think BRS thought that you had a warranty issue and that's why they forwarded you to EcoTech.

From here moving forward, I think it's best if you contact our customer service team at the information provided below. We'd be happy to check out your pump for you.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

This is not a fair description of our conversation. You did not ask me if you could send it back for evaluation. Of course you can. You only asked me if you could RETURN the pump. I cannot authorize a return as I did not sell the pump, BRS did. This is standard operating procedure for any OEM in our industry.

Actually, I said I contacted BRS because I was concerned something may be wrong with the pump. Neither would they exchange it, nor accept a return.

I also asked if you could help me out, because I love the pump and asked if there is something wrong could you exchange it for one you are confident worked properly.

Here's our conversation. I did not ask you if I could return the pump.

[ksed]

Get yourself one of these meters.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/P3-Intern...4460/202196388

A Fluval running on a venturi skimmer (which typically run best with pressure rated pumps) does not run at 88 watts. When applying back pressure on an AC pump the amount of work being done is less(moving less water) therefore your wattage will drop. The amount of wattage drop will vary on the pump used. Fluvals have very little head pressure, I believe its in the area of 11-12ft . As mentioned above get yourself a meter and you will see how much of a wattage drop there will be with the Fluval. Once you've done this, it will put things into perspective.

Tim is doing a great job at following up.

Originally Posted by Johnseye

I had been running my Vectra on my Lifereef skimmer at 60% for a week and the temp wouldn't get over 82F at that output. 60% is supposed to be 60w for the Vectra. I purchased a Fluval SP4 rated at 88w. It's an AC pump so no changes in output. I ran that for 3 days and the temp peaked to about 81F each night. Then I put the Vectra back in and ran it at 100%, which is supposed to be 80w for 2 nights. The temp climbed higher each evening and didn't cool as much during lights out. It peaked at 83.4F before I lowered the output to 70% or 67w. That's where it is now at the end of the graph.

I was not running a canopy fan during the time with the Fluval. Only a small 120mm fan in the sump. When the Vectra climbed up to 82F I turned on a canopy fan and stuck a larger fan to blow air into the sump. Temp still climbed.

Ambient room temp has stayed consistent at 76F.

You can see from the graph where I swapped out the Vectra for the Fluval on the 22nd. There were consistent steady peaks and valleys from the Fluval. Then you can see where I swapped the Vectra back in on the 26th. Not so consistent with climbing peaks and shallow valleys.

I understand 80w is 80w but I question how ESL is reporting the wattage used by the pump. Whether what's displayed is just a percentage displayed based on selected percentage, or the actual wattage measured by the controller I don't know. I am guessing it's not actual wattage, but that's just a guess. My wattage at the wall is 91w. This is just a guess, but I don't think the controller is using 11w. I have no way to prove this and it is purely my opinion.

Fact is, for my aquarium and what I'm running, the Vectra at 100% heats it up too much. 88w from the Fluval is the border of what the tank can handle and even that is too hot for my liking. Keep in mind, these pumps are running a skimmer with next to 0 head loss and my tank has different equipment in it than yours. If you're using it for a return or CL then maybe the pump won't exhibit the same characteristics.

What strikes me as odd is that a pump with a higher rated wattage creates less heat. There is something missing in this story, I just don't what it is.

[SPotter]

First ever ecotech purchases!!!! Have a little retro fitting to do but shouldn't be too hard!

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

An AC pump rated at 88w will only draw 88w when head is zero and flow is max. The more head pressure you apply (as when used to power a skimmer), the more the flow drops and the more the power drops as well.

Without a watt meter used to measure the power of the AC pump, this test doesn't say anything.

Tim,

I checked the wattage of the 88w Fluval at the wall using my Kill A Watt and it was 54w. You are absolutely correct. It's obvious I don't have an understanding of pump power consumption, an area which is your expertise. Had I known that an AC pump drops its power as flow decreases I would never have attempted this test.

At 70% the M1 is drawing 76w at the wall. 9w must be used at the controller as ESL is reporting the pump using 67w.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by Johnseye

Tim,

I checked the wattage of the 88w Fluval at the wall using my Kill A Watt and it was 54w. You are absolutely correct. It's obvious I don't have an understanding of pump power consumption, an area which is your expertise. Had I known that an AC pump drops its power as flow decreases I would never have attempted this test.

At 70% the M1 is drawing 76w at the wall. 9w must be used at the controller as ESL is reporting the pump using 67w.

John
Remember awhile back when we talked about doing a test with the M1 setup like a return pump just pushing water somewhere? Did you try that and take temp. readings? My guess and it is just a guess, the temp. difference will go away or be minimal. I just ordered a Kill-a-watt to see what my system is doing. I do think you are about right about the controller overhead being about 9-10 watts. Perhaps if Tim cares to jump in again he can explain how the watts factor is calculated. I am guessing the value reported as watts comes from a mathematical solution based on recorded data from run tests on the prototypes. I don't think the actually has a watt meter within the pump but new technology has surprised me before. In any case, both ways would give valid numbers as long as the pump is functioning properly.

RJ

[sleepydoc]

John - Ksed stole my comment! You were running a test and making too many assumptions, which is why your results didn't make sense. As RJ said, 10 watts is actually very believable for the controller.

your bottom line may still be true in terms of which pump is better for your tank. What ultimately matters is which pump is more efficient at the flow you want/need. Even if you're not totally happy with the pump for your system, I have to say I'm impressed with Tim and Echotech's customer service. Very few companies would give you as much attention.

Regarding the Triac/SSR issue, I suspect the issue is that when the pump is first plugged in, only the controller is drawing power until it starts up the pump. If the controller is low enough power, it won't draw enough current to latch the relay and the pump will never start up.

[Johnseye]

Bottom line for me is that I can use this pump, and ultimately this skimmer during the winter months. I'm considering setting up a 200+g tank in the basement which is considerably cooler year round. I can also run this pump externally with the skimmer there as I have a back room. All in all I like the pump, I just wish my aquarium could handle another 80w of heat which is essentially what this all boils down to.

I do appreciate Tim's input and apologize for my lack of engineering/science skills. I have learned a lot about heat transfer and pump flow during this exercise. In fact I think I learn something new every day in this hobby.

[jverna1]

Ok so I tried to call and send and email to Ecotech with a question and no response so Im gonna try Reef Central.

Im thinking about getting the Vectral L1 and I have a plumbing question. My current plumbing going into and out of my blueline return pump is 1". The Vectra L1 has a 1.5" input do you think I can go from 1" to 1.5" before the input without damaging the L1? I have 14" from my elbow coming out of my Rubbermaid sump to the L1 input.

IMG_1514.JPG

[acesq]

Originally Posted by jverna1

Ok so I tried to call and send and email to Ecotech with a question and no response so Im gonna try Reef Central.

Im thinking about getting the Vectral L1 and I have a plumbing question. My current plumbing going into and out of my blueline return pump is 1". The Vectra L1 has a 1.5" input do you think I can go from 1" to 1.5" before the input without damaging the L1? I have 14" from my elbow coming out of my Rubbermaid sump to the L1 input.

Attachment 330092

I doubt you could starve the pump and still run it at full speed. Keep in mind that the area of a 1.5" pipe is more than double that of a 1" pipe. My understanding is that cavitation would occur which would ultimately damage the impeller. It may also create a microbubble issue.

Hopefully Ecotech will get back to you, perhaps they oversized the input. But even if they did and it is safe to use a 1" input, I'll bet you end up with less flow than the rated 3100gph.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by jverna1

Ok so I tried to call and send and email to Ecotech with a question and no response so Im gonna try Reef Central.

Im thinking about getting the Vectral L1 and I have a plumbing question. My current plumbing going into and out of my blueline return pump is 1". The Vectra L1 has a 1.5" input do you think I can go from 1" to 1.5" before the input without damaging the L1? I have 14" from my elbow coming out of my Rubbermaid sump to the L1 input.

Attachment 330092

The Vectra L1 outlet without the supplied compression union is 1.5" and that will give the maximum flow rate/ head height but, since the supplied union fitting is 1", I am sure it will work just fine as long as you do not need the maximum performance numbers.

Native input is 2" and, with the supplied fitting is already necked down to 1.5". One inch on input would really strangle the pump's ability. I am no expert but I think would be wasting your money and will not get the flow numbers you expect using a 1" input. As to damaging the unit, I do not know but suspect it would, long term would be a possibility.

RJ

[naterealbig]

Originally Posted by acesq

I doubt you could starve the pump and still run it at full speed. Keep in mind that the area of a 1.5" pipe is more than double that of a 1" pipe. My understanding is that cavitation would occur which would ultimately damage the impeller. It may also create a microbubble issue.

Hopefully Ecotech will get back to you, perhaps they oversized the input. But even if they did and it is safe to use a 1" input, I'll bet you end up with less flow than the rated 3100gph.

And there in lies the beauty of adjustable flow pumps. You don't need to move water at some maximum flow rate. Get a 1"-1.5" bushing and set it up. Calibrate your pump so that the max flow rate is below the point of cavitation, and you're ready to go until you upgrade your plumbing - or your aquarium.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by naterealbig

And there in lies the beauty of adjustable flow pumps. You don't need to move water at some maximum flow rate. Get a 1"-1.5" bushing and set it up. Calibrate your pump so that the max flow rate is below the point of cavitation, and you're ready to go until you upgrade your plumbing - or your aquarium.

True enough, but unless money is not a factor, the M1 might end up a better fit. Either way, the reduced noise alone is worth moving to a good DC return pump like the Vectra or RD3. I love mine.

[jverna1]

Originally Posted by acesq

I doubt you could starve the pump and still run it at full speed. Keep in mind that the area of a 1.5" pipe is more than double that of a 1" pipe. My understanding is that cavitation would occur which would ultimately damage the impeller. It may also create a microbubble issue.

Hopefully Ecotech will get back to you, perhaps they oversized the input. But even if they did and it is safe to use a 1" input, I'll bet you end up with less flow than the rated 3100gph.

Its ok that I don't get the max gph I will be dialing it down anyway. I really like the feed mode option of the pump thats my main reason for getting it. Thanks for your reply

[jverna1]

Originally Posted by rjallen

The Vectra L1 outlet without the supplied compression union is 1.5" and that will give the maximum flow rate/ head height but, since the supplied union fitting is 1", I am sure it will work just fine as long as you do not need the maximum performance numbers.

Native input is 2" and, with the supplied fitting is already necked down to 1.5". One inch on input would really strangle the pump's ability. I am no expert but I think would be wasting your money and will not get the flow numbers you expect using a 1" input. As to damaging the unit, I do not know but suspect it would, long term would be a possibility.

RJ

Yes that is the reason why I'm posing the question before I pull the trigger. Not sure if Ecotech can give me an answer or not. I guess we'll see. Im trying to avoid cutting a hole in my rubbermaid for a 1.5" bulkhead. Not fun since its filled with water and live rock. Thanks for your reply

[naterealbig]

Originally Posted by acesq

True enough, but unless money is not a factor, the M1 might end up a better fit. Either way, the reduced noise alone is worth moving to a good DC return pump like the Vectra or RD3. I love mine.

Your right about the cost. My opinion was a little subjective, as I'm eventually planning on upgrading to a 150, and will likely go with the L1 myself. I have a 65g now and am planning on putting it on this tank in the mean time. Very likely to get increased performance-to-cost with the smaller pump - as long as you don't upgrade to a tank where the L1 would be necessary.

[jverna1]

My blueline 70 pump i am currently using maxes out at 1750 gph so I don't think I need the max anyway. Everything is doing well but i would like a little more turnover. Not to mention the energy savings and the feed mode. I just stopped using filter socks and putting it in feed mode would help with food getting to my sump.

[zachfishman]

Originally Posted by jverna1

Its ok that I don't get the max gph I will be dialing it down anyway. I really like the feed mode option of the pump thats my main reason for getting it. Thanks for your reply

The danger in an undersized input is pump cavitation. You'll be safe if you dial it down sufficiently, but if you try to push too much you risk damaging the pump.