New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[BeachBum2012]

Originally Posted by rjallen

I know that is the position of Neptune. But the last time I checked in over there, I could not fine a user who actually tried it. I guess it does not work but.....
You can do some programming with those buttons you mentioned but I sprung for the Reef Link. Still a pain when using feed mode. EcoSmartLive works okay but since I do not have other Eco Tech Products, I really would just like to use my Apex.

RJ

This is the one thing making we want to see how the COR performs.

[ca1ore]

Except the COR is probably the better part of a year off ..... I guess i'll just live with my fluval for CL pump.

[BeachBum2012]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Except the COR is probably the better part of a year off ..... I guess i'll just live with my fluval for CL pump.

Yeah. I thought about a Jaebo in the mean time. Probably going to bite the bullet and just buy a M1 though.

[SPotter]

I never wanted to have to go to multiple sites to program my tank but I have to say its so easy to program with ESL!

[sleepydoc]

The Vectra pumps appear to use the same block as the Deepwater BLDC pumps. Deepwater was supposed to come out with Apex compatibility this summer; does anyone know if they've done that and if it can be applied to the Vectra pumps?

[andrek787]

I have been looking for a nice dc return pump for my new build and M1 fits the bill nicely, except the Apex incompatibility is a no go. I think its insane for Ecotech to leave Apex owners behind just as most other manufacturers make their pumps apex-ready. Even Jebao\Coral-Box are now offering pre-order on their new DCS pump series with an apex-"ready" Aqualink driver.

[soulpatch]

Andrek read back a few pages and you will see it is neptune holding this back from happening...

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by soulpatch

Andrek read back a few pages and you will see it is neptune holding this back from happening...

I believe you have that backwards. Feel free to link the post, but as I read it, neptune seems willing, ETM not so.

[andrek787]

Its on page 15th of this thread. I understand that Ecotech wants to get into the controller market with reeflink and Neptune is going into the Ecotech market space with Wav. But ReefLink is long way off from being an true controller like Apex and Reefkeeper.

[soulpatch]

Neptune seems willing to force people to code to their new "standard" that they are seemingly now pushing without any other buy in. The way I read everything in this thread they are the hurdle.

This is why items like the gyre, jabeo, and such all need items like the ice cap, jbwave, ect to stand as a middle man to have all the features like ecotech has reeflink...

[ca1ore]

Fair enough. I read it differently.

[slief]

Originally Posted by soulpatch

Neptune seems willing to force people to code to their new "standard" that they are seemingly now pushing without any other buy in. The way I read everything in this thread they are the hurdle.

This is why items like the gyre, jabeo, and such all need items like the ice cap, jbwave, ect to stand as a middle man to have all the features like ecotech has reeflink...

I'm sorry but that's absolutely absurd. To date the only universal standard in the controller and peripheral industry is 0 to 10 V. All the other companies you mentioned conform to that standard. That standard is supported by virtually all aquarium controller manufacturers. Ecotech doesn't conform to any standard and essentially developed their own proprietary standard to work with only their productline without any regard for universal support. Neptune created a proprietary interface (WXM) for the Ecotech products. Now Ecotechs latest pump which works with all other Ecotech products is incompatible with the WXM and you want to blame that on Neptune Systems???

If 0 to 10 V control, the current industry standard isn't the future, who should set the next standard? Don't you think that the most well recognized controller company in the industry should be working with the peripheral manufactures to pave the way for universal compatibility standard? In my opinion the issue is not Neptune Systems here. I also think it's premature to blame anybody as I do believe WXM support is coming. Either way universal standards are a good thing when people want interoperability between product manufacturers. Especially when it comes to centralized control.

And as far as nobody else buying in to this new standard, you are mistaken there. I know for fact that other manufactures have bought into it. This new standard will be how the new Kessil AP 700 is controlled through the Apex and there are others as well. This isn't rocket science, the new standard is one of the most universally recognized wireless protocols out there. It's the same protocol that we use to communicate wirelessly with our fixtures through our smart phones & home networks. Wi-Fi happens to be the most universalally used wireless protocol short of perhaps Bluetooth but Wi-Fi makes sense and that's with this new protocol is based on.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Fair enough. I read it differently.

I did too. Pretty sure Neptune was open and EcoTech had not replied to that comment.

[soulpatch]

they will run a 0-10 but you lose many of the functions you gain via the extra controllers which is similar to the extras you gain with the wxm. And I would argue that the 0-10 being a "standard" but it is what Neptune went with... There is no industry standard currently...it might be popular but it is not a standard.

I did not place blame on Neptune per say as they both share blame THOUGH that said Neptune has stated that they want to only go with 0-10 inputs which would not allow many of the extra features other pumps enjoy WHILE they come out with the WAV and COR using a different connection and standard to still enjoy those features. So yes there is a bit of a bias in their decisions though I can't say I blame them. THey are the hurdle though to having these features for other companies put into their controller.

A language on the back end should be the standard not a connection method fluctuating power to the controller... If Neptune really wanted to create a standard for controller interface this would be the path they wanted to go. As is they are trying to force a standard in the 0-10 v that puts other items at a disadvantage vs. their in house products moving forward.

[soulpatch]

Originally Posted by Johnseye

I did too. Pretty sure Neptune was open and EcoTech had not replied to that comment.

I can see how one could read it either way since Neptune wants the 0-10v but that lacks a lot of features we all want while they come out with their OWN modules which breaks from the 0-10v standard they are trying to mandate for others.

So YES Ecotech could have gone simply with 0-10v and lack most of the features we all like on this pump and created another BLDC but they added more features and that requires more then 0-10v.

[slief]

Originally Posted by soulpatch

they will run a 0-10 but you lose many of the functions you gain via the extra controllers which is similar to the extras you gain with the wxm. And I would argue that the 0-10 being a "standard" but it is what Neptune went with... There is no industry standard currently...it might be popular but it is not a standard.

They will not work with 0 to 10 V control and never will. WXM would be the compatibility view product for Ecotech Vectra's to work with Neptune as it always has been and that will support all of the features that the vectra currently offers. But Ecotech straight up said that they were not allocating any developmental resources for WXM incompatibility until some point in the future.

Originally Posted by soulpatch

I can see how one could read it either way since Neptune wants the 0-10v but that lacks a lot of features we all want while they come out with their OWN modules which breaks from the 0-10v standard they are trying to mandate for others.

So YES Ecotech could have gone simply with 0-10v and lack most of the features we all like on this pump and created another BLDC but they added more features and that requires more then 0-10v.

Neptune doesn't want 0 to 10 V control for Vectra. They have the WXM module. The Vectra uses the same controller as the vortechs! There is no need for 0 to 10 V control. The only thing needed is WXM support and that falls on Ecotech.

[andrek787]

As far as the "universal" 0-10v control, PWM control is a better alternative. I am not 100% certain, but I believe that latest generation of pumps like Jebao DCT and Gyre are designed to use only PWM drives, which is why they are not compatible with cheap "interface" boxes. Drivers like ICE-CAP and Aqualink have to translate 0-10V into PWM to drive the pumps. I think the Apex 1LINK is also a PWM driver and may be able to drive DCT pumps and Gyres directly without extra drivers.

The DA Archon was developed to be able to provide both 0-10v and PWM control signals.

[soulpatch]

Originally Posted by slief

They will not work with 0 to 10 V control and never will. WXM would be the compatibility view product for Ecotech Vectra's to work with Neptune as it always has been and that will support all of the features that the vectra currently offers. But Ecotech straight up said that they were not allocating any developmental resources for WXM incompatibility until some point in the future.

my they refered to pumps in general that they (pumps) in general will work with 0-10 but you lose all the extra features that many of the pumps today employ.



Neptune doesn't want 0 to 10 V control for Vectra. They have the WXM module. The Vectra uses the same controller as the vortechs! There is no need for 0 to 10 V control. The only thing needed is WXM support and that falls on Ecotech.[/QUOTE]

They might have the WXM but they said themselves they do not want to do one offs anymore and want pumps to conform to the standard 0-10v moving forward which is great except it hinder features.

I imagine it is a ploy with the Vectra on both sides. ECM wants to see the sales with it not apex ready and how many reef link integrations they get whereas Neptune is most likely banking on lighter sales without the connection to reinforce their future launch of the COR which will have those features.


andrek I would be pleased if the 1link module controlled other pumps but would most likely need an aadapter as the back is the Neptune plugs for the WAV and their future COR.

[TerenceF]

OK, lots of misunderstanding and misinformation here. Time to bring some clarity, straight from Neptune Systems.

Apex Ready is a standard we created by which, through various means, we have created a path for interactivity between our Apex System and many other aquarium products on the market. There are basically four different methods to get that interactivity:

- 0-10V control - we did not invent this, but it is a reliable standard. When a company makes their products compatible with this for variable speed pumps, dimming of lights, etc. and then submits for official Apex Ready certification we test these products to confirm their adapters work as they should to make it easy on the customers and that the device does what it should.

- Digital RS-232 control via VDM port - This is at this time only for lighting control, but it is not limited only to that. At the moment the original AI-Sol lights, the lights from Acan Lighting, and those from ZetLight conform to this standard. In addition to multi-channel dimming, clouds and lightning effects can be implemented.

- AWM - AI Wireless control Module - Due to the popularity of the AI Sol Lights in the past, we spent the engineering time and dollars and worked with AI to develop a module for controlling the Hydra lights when they came out. AI is now abandoning this type of control with their new lights and following the Prime by having on board WiFi. We are currently trying to work with them to control these new lights with the Apex. This would cost us engineering time and money and since it will not require a module to make this feature work, there will not be any revenue to off-set that work. We know it is important for our users to be able to control all of the major products out there and we are committed to that. For now, the ball is in their court to provide us with the information necessary to make that happen for our users.

- WXM - EcoTech Wireless Module - This was originally developed by us to operate the VorTech pumps and was later expanded to work with the Radion lights as well. In terms of the Vectra, and as was stated in other threads by myself, we have discussed the enabling of control of the Vectra with EcoTech Marine at MACNA and are awaiting them making the necessary small changes to make that happen for our users. Once they do that we will immediately work to make that surfaced in the Apex via a firmware update so that our users with WXM (or those that want to buy one) can control all their EcoTech products (as well as other companies products) from one interface.

I would like to make it extremely crystal clear that Neptune Systems is committed to providing aquarium owners what they have asked for (89% in a recent RB survey) - a single place from which to control all their aquarium gear. This does not mean that they would not have point solutions from various manufacturers, but rather that their Apex continues to be their universal remote control and monitoring interface.

One of the things that makes it hard to give customers complete control is that many times smaller manufacturers do not have the volume of sales that allow us to do custom work like the modules above in order to get connected to the Apex. We just cannot expend that much Engineering time and cost. This is where standards come in. At this point, we see WiFi (802.11) as the winning method for connectivity in products that are now coming to market.

To that end I announced at MACNA a new initiative for Neptune Systems. That is, a universal standard we coining IoA or Internet of Aquariums. With this standard, now even the smallest, newest lighting, pump or other product manufacturer can come to market with a product that is immediately Apex Ready right out of the box. We are currently working on that standard with a couple of manufacturers and will be announcing more on this at a later date.

So, once again to summarize and bring it back relative to this thread and the comments here thus far:

1. We are ready to do the Vectra support as soon as it is enabled in the Vectra driver.

2. We are committed as a company to continue to provide support for the control of 3rd party products and expanding that more than ever before.

3. The fact that we have products ourselves that may compete with some of those same 3rd party products is not an issue. As an example, Apple competes with Logitech with their mouse. They now compete with many companies with the release of their "pencil". But they still provide a way for all of those products to work. This is our model going forward.

I encourage those that want to continue this broader discussion on our compatibility with other products to please do so on a thread in our own forum here on RC or on our company community forum so as not to derail this one.

[soulpatch]

I stand corrected....

[rjallen]

Thanks Terence

Think all of us really appreciate manufacturers input. With smart pumps with flow control with the ability to measure exact gph controlability and operation of our systems will change ways that could not even be imagined just a few years ago. Even today it's hard for most of us to fathom how all this will affect our hobby.

Exciting times.

RJ

[dmatt56]

So what has to happen to allow vendors like Maxspect to make gyre Apex Ready without buying a $100 interface for each pump?

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by dmatt56

So what has to happen to allow vendors like Maxspect to make gyre Apex Ready without buying a $100 interface for each pump?

IoA Internet of Aquariums

[TerenceF]

Thread has been created over in our forum if you want to continue the Apex discussion. That keep this thread from going off track. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24049932

[dmatt56]

Apologies. Duplicate post.