NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!! - Page 23

Nathan · 04/26/2006, 09:46 AM

Thanks Herbie!

Hey, where in Central PA are you? I went to Penn State (State College), but now live near Philly.

-Nathan

tygger · 04/26/2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dandy7200
The only way I can figure out a safe way for this to work with 1 overflow drain is to have a float switch on the tank so If it senses water going to high it will shut down the pump. This would work if you didn't rely on full water movement going through your sump ie: closed loop or powerheads.

I was planning on adding a float switch to the internal overlfow for the emergency, emergency back-up.

Although I do feel comfortable with just the regular ol' emergency drain...

Herbie · 04/26/2006, 11:15 AM

Nathan.....
Small world.
I live very close to Bucknell . Lewisburg PA area.
Been out to state college many times...........
Go Nittany Lions !!!
Later..........Herbie

Avast Marine · 04/26/2006, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Custom Lifereef Overflow........Side view.

OK this is exactly what I did. The reason you see the durso on that box is because it didn't work. I had it plumbed just like you and this is what happened: Started to restrict main drain, quiet pipes = good. Restricted a little more to test the emerg. drain and water in overflow did not rise but water in tank rises = bad. At no point in testing could I get the water to overflow out my emerg. without overflowing the tank. Thats when I figured out that the syphon will only pull as much as it can drain not as much as the pressure on the back end. This is not safe. Please try it and see if you get the same results. Someone convince me this can be done in a extermal overflow box! Thats why theres a durso in the hole I drilled (next best thing.) And I am planning on using the original hole for a water change drain.

Herbie · 04/26/2006, 01:49 PM

dandy7200,
I dont know ???
Mine works fine.........I have tested it! If you look closely at the pictures, you can slightly notice a water line where the emergency bulk head starts flowing water. I have run it through the emergency drain for some time just to test it.
Something else is going on with yours. What pump are you using and what GPH are you pushing down the overflow??? How about the tank water level..........is the inner box postioned correctly ???
Maybe post some pictures of your set-up running. That may shed some light on whats going on. Our boxes are almost identical, so something is off.
All I can say is mine works fine........and the emerg. works fine also. It was VERY easy to set-up and required very little in the way of adjustment. Closed gate valve untill the desired water level in the overflow box, then adjust gate valve open slightly until water level stabilizes, maybe slightly closed again until its perfected.........thats it!

Trying to help..............Herbie

Avast Marine · 04/26/2006, 03:32 PM

I appreciate the help I will get some more detailed pics on this forum of what is going on along with some measurements. I really want to make this work if I can.

Avast Marine · 04/26/2006, 03:41 PM

I wonder if Jeff did any thing except put in an extra hole like increase box size or pipe length or inside riser size. Did he say he would have to do anything like that or just put in an extra bulkhead?

Herbie · 04/26/2006, 05:16 PM

dandy7200,
Its a STANDARD Lifereef overflow siphon box. Its not a slimline. The only thing Jeff did was drill out and "glue" in a bulkhead up top on the side of the overflow box. Its the Same bulkhead that he used on the bottom with the only difference.......the bottom bulhead is 1" male thread and the top bulkhead is 1" female thread. Jeff included all fittings as well........standard 1" .
We did have a good talk on exactly where exactly to put the bulkhead.......but in the end Jeff said to just put it up high.
Note: I do remember Jeff saying that with his overflow boxes the outside box will always be slightly lower than the lip of the tank so the tank will never overflow........the box would.
Jeff thought the Emergency overflow bulkhead was a good idea. I wouldnt be suprised if he starts adding it in as an option on his boxes. I just dont think he would ever advocate dialing down the overflow so it becomes a silent siphon. He thought the emergency bulkhead was a good back-up if the main overflow ever blocked, because of a snail or something. At least you wouldnt have a flood.
I just cant see how your tank would overflow if your using the Lifreef box as it was intended. Did you raise the box higher than the tank rim ??? I am lost.......this has got to work for you. I will wait for some pictures.

Later.........Herbie

jacmyoung · 04/26/2006, 06:44 PM

Thank you Herbie for introducing us to such a great system. I have mine working for the last 5 months without an emergency drain.

I don't think one has to be afraid to try this system even if you don't have an extra hole in the box for an emergency drain, as long as you design the sump to accept all the flow from the main tank during power outage, and allow the pump chamber to run dry before the main tank can overflow.

From my experience, when the drain is properly screened to prevent large items from clogging it, there is no reason the system can post any danger even without an emergency drain. Clogging, if any, will be a very slow process and very visible in your sump level change, and you have ample time to notice the change and correct it.

Of course if you have an extra drain hole for emergency all the better, but I hope people who currently are contemplating this system but only has one drain and one return line not be deterred by the fear of some imaginary tank overflow risk with this system, as long as you don't hold me responsible for any problems that may occur

Mike.B · 04/26/2006, 07:09 PM

However though if you want your tank silent your overflow level has to be very high up with basically no water falling. So it wont take much water overflow your tank. jacmyoung is right though if you have tested it that your pump will run dry in the event of a clog great, just hope that you notice or are home so that you dont burn out your pump.

This system is great, but without an emergency I dont think its worth it.

rdmpe · 04/26/2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drk70
Thanks, I will try that. I already run a tube out from under my tank/sump area and up the back of my tank to get some fresh air instead of that same warm air that is in my cabinet. The only thing is is just extends the whistle noise to the back of my tank.

Hey Dennis, take a look here
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...61#post7255061
for pictures of the AquaC muffler. I put it in the AquaC "club" thread since it is way OT here...

jacmyoung · 04/26/2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by subzero420
However though if you want your tank silent your overflow level has to be very high up with basically no water falling. So it wont take much water overflow your tank. jacmyoung is right though if you have tested it that your pump will run dry in the event of a clog great, just hope that you notice or are home so that you dont burn out your pump.

This system is great, but without an emergency I dont think its worth it.

Are you saying my system is not worth it? BTW to think the pump can easily run dry before you can rush home to correct it is another imaginary speculation. I have intentionally tried not to adjust the valve when there seemed to be some change in water level in the pump chamber and it usually took a week or so to have the water level dropped low enough, and even then somehow the system managed to self-correct for some reason unknown to me.

All I am saying is if you are not running this system without an emergency drain, then all your perceived risks are just that--perceived ones, without actual observation to support them. As such you can not claim that your speculation is worth more than mine--actual observations.

I am certainly not saying everyone should start using this system without an emergency drain. If your comfort level does not allow you to do so, by all means don't do it unless you can implement a second drain, just don't go around telling everyone else they are going to flood the tank without one.

Mike.B · 04/26/2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jacmyoung
Are you saying my system is not worth it? BTW to think the pump can easily run dry before you can rush home to correct it is another imaginary speculation. I have intentionally tried not to adjust the valve when there seemed to be some change in water level in the pump chamber and it usually took a week or so to have the water level dropped low enough, and even then somehow the system managed to self-correct for some reason unknown to me.

All I am saying is if you are not running this system without an emergency drain, then all your perceived risks are just that--perceived ones, without actual observation to support them. As such you can not claim that your speculation is worth more than mine--actual observations.

Alright, calm down

I'm not saying your plumbing isnt worth it, I'm simply saying if your at work and your gone for 8 hours and your pumps running dry, you've got problems.

Further is that most people have an autotop off system and if your pump runs dry and the auto topoff kicks in then what, you've got a flood!

All I'm saying is this really isnt the best way to do it, if you dont think you need an emergency fine, but know what could happen.

jacmyoung · 04/26/2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by subzero420
Alright, calm down

I'm not saying your plumbing isnt worth it, I'm simply saying if your at work and your gone for 8 hours and your pumps running dry, you've got problems.

Further is that most people have an autotop off system and if your pump runs dry and the auto topoff kicks in then what, you've got a flood!

All I'm saying is this really isnt the best way to do it, if you dont think you need an emergency fine, but know what could happen.

You have a good point, with an auto topoff system you do need the second drain to keep the sump level steady. I do manual topoff.

Cord · 04/27/2006, 12:42 AM

Don't make me read through the 5+ pages of replies, but won't an air valve screwed into the top of the standard durso regulate the amount of air entering the overflow, and adjust the water level in the overflow box? You just dial in your water level.

szwab · 04/27/2006, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cord
Don't make me read through the 5+ pages of replies, but won't an air valve screwed into the top of the standard durso regulate the amount of air entering the overflow, and adjust the water level in the overflow box? You just dial in your water level.

yes but is some systems thet is still quite noisy. since my drain was falling 8+ feet tothe basement it was sucking air through the durso and was really loud.

Avast Marine · 04/27/2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cord
Don't make me read through the 5+ pages of replies, but won't an air valve screwed into the top of the standard durso regulate the amount of air entering the overflow, and adjust the water level in the overflow box? You just dial in your water level.

It's worth the read.
This eliminates any airflow from entering.
Air = Noise
Noise = Bad
Herbie = Genius

deadmanh · 04/27/2006, 10:15 AM

.

rdmpe · 04/27/2006, 11:30 AM

Another benefit - the drains do not produce any bubbles in the sump. So you can get higher flow rate through the sump without worry of microbubbles. Also there is much less salt spray in the sump area (mess) since the drain water isn't producing tons of bubbles.

Herbie · 04/28/2006, 06:56 AM

Hey all.............

I just noticed that this thread is is up for POST OF THE MONTH !!!

Thats cool.........I finally feel like it was worth all the trouble, and naysayers grief I had to deal with to post it. It was just my intent to be able to help.......even a few people........who have tried everything else to quiet down there tanks.......LIKE ME! All can say to the "naysyaers", is dont knock it untill you try it. It may not work for everybody, but at least we can see it works WELL for a LOT of people!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=831439

Just to be considered for post of the month is worth it !!!
RC will make it a sticky if it wins !!!!

If this post has helped you quiet down your tank so you could keep your sanity.........nows the time to vote!!!

THANKS ALL who have participated in this thread !!!

Later.............Herbie

Just making my 100th post worthwhile !!!!!

drk70 · 04/28/2006, 07:28 AM

I just made my vote for you!

Avast Marine · 04/28/2006, 10:05 AM

Got my vote!

conefree · 04/28/2006, 01:01 PM

Mine as well

Nathan · 04/28/2006, 01:15 PM

...and my vote too! Let's hope you win! This is really the best overflow/return method around!

-Nathan

jacmyoung · 04/28/2006, 02:18 PM

Added my vote also.

I just want to expand a bit on the "no emergency drain" concept to see if the below makes sense to anyone:

As I noted earlier, if one designed the sump properly, and have a properly screened drain intake, the only concern you may have with this method (minus the emergency drain) will be the prospect of your return pump running dry due to slow clogging, therefore cause demage to the pump and the livestock.

When I experimented with my system by not making any adjustment, waiting for the slight clogging to do its damage, I never let it reach the point of the return pump running dry, but it usually took a week for the water to drop very low in the pump chamber to be close to the pump intake. Which means I would have enough time to correct any clogging problem.

Now what if I let the water continue to drop so the pump start to suck air? How soon should we expect the pump to run dry, get demaged, or to see livestock in the tank dropping like flies?

Well not anytime soon, certainly will be much longer than a week, because once the pump starts to suck in air, the flow rate drops, and so the system self-adjust to balance out the slower flow rate in the drain (due to minor clogging). We all know that pumps sucking some air will do no harm since skimmers use pumps to inject air all the time, and as long as there is water pumped through at the same time.

What you will notice is air bubbles begin to show up in the display tank from the return nozzle. So the question is really how long does it take for a reefer to do something about it when he starts to notice the air in the main tank, assume he totally missed the water level change in the sump for the last week.

Or the question should really be, if he still manages to allow the pump to run dry after all this time, is he really qualified to keep a reef tank in the first place?

Of course if an auto top-off is used in the sump this will not work.

04/26/2006, 03:32 PM	#556
Avast Marine RC Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,446	I appreciate the help I will get some more detailed pics on this forum of what is going on along with some measurements. I really want to make this work if I can. __________________ Dan Don't rush art, you get bad art.

04/26/2006, 03:41 PM	#557
Avast Marine RC Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,446	I wonder if Jeff did any thing except put in an extra hole like increase box size or pipe length or inside riser size. Did he say he would have to do anything like that or just put in an extra bulkhead? __________________ Dan Don't rush art, you get bad art.

04/28/2006, 07:28 AM	#571
drk70 Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Westminster, MD. Posts: 1,640	I just made my vote for you! __________________ Dennis Current Tank Info: 70g RR, DIY Stand & Canopy, 29g Sump, Mag 9.5 return, Aqua C EV-180 w/ Mag 7, 6-39W T-5 Retro Kit, 70g TBS package

04/28/2006, 10:05 AM	#572
Avast Marine RC Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 2,446	Got my vote! __________________ Dan Don't rush art, you get bad art.

04/28/2006, 01:01 PM	#573
conefree Gene Pool Lifeguard Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Downingtown, PA Posts: 758	Mine as well __________________ Chris "A Closed Mouth Gathers No Foot" - Unknown Some people are like Slinkies . . . not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs. Current Tank Info: 120 gallon, Ecosystem 3612, 6X54 TEK light, Tunze Osmolator, Lifereef dual overflow all down

04/26/2006, 09:46 AM	#551
Nathan Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Newtown, Pa., USA Posts: 1,454	Thanks Herbie! Hey, where in Central PA are you? I went to Penn State (State College), but now live near Philly. -Nathan

04/26/2006, 11:15 AM	#553
Herbie Yep,that one Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Central PA Posts: 694	Nathan..... Small world. I live very close to Bucknell . Lewisburg PA area. Been out to state college many times........... Go Nittany Lions !!! Later..........Herbie

04/26/2006, 01:49 PM	#555
Herbie Yep,that one Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Central PA Posts: 694	dandy7200, I dont know ??? Mine works fine.........I have tested it! If you look closely at the pictures, you can slightly notice a water line where the emergency bulk head starts flowing water. I have run it through the emergency drain for some time just to test it. Something else is going on with yours. What pump are you using and what GPH are you pushing down the overflow??? How about the tank water level..........is the inner box postioned correctly ??? Maybe post some pictures of your set-up running. That may shed some light on whats going on. Our boxes are almost identical, so something is off. All I can say is mine works fine........and the emerg. works fine also. It was VERY easy to set-up and required very little in the way of adjustment. Closed gate valve untill the desired water level in the overflow box, then adjust gate valve open slightly until water level stabilizes, maybe slightly closed again until its perfected.........thats it! Trying to help..............Herbie

04/26/2006, 05:16 PM	#558
Herbie Yep,that one Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Central PA Posts: 694	dandy7200, Its a STANDARD Lifereef overflow siphon box. Its not a slimline. The only thing Jeff did was drill out and "glue" in a bulkhead up top on the side of the overflow box. Its the Same bulkhead that he used on the bottom with the only difference.......the bottom bulhead is 1" male thread and the top bulkhead is 1" female thread. Jeff included all fittings as well........standard 1" . We did have a good talk on exactly where exactly to put the bulkhead.......but in the end Jeff said to just put it up high. Note: I do remember Jeff saying that with his overflow boxes the outside box will always be slightly lower than the lip of the tank so the tank will never overflow........the box would. Jeff thought the Emergency overflow bulkhead was a good idea. I wouldnt be suprised if he starts adding it in as an option on his boxes. I just dont think he would ever advocate dialing down the overflow so it becomes a silent siphon. He thought the emergency bulkhead was a good back-up if the main overflow ever blocked, because of a snail or something. At least you wouldnt have a flood. I just cant see how your tank would overflow if your using the Lifreef box as it was intended. Did you raise the box higher than the tank rim ??? I am lost.......this has got to work for you. I will wait for some pictures. Later.........Herbie

04/26/2006, 06:44 PM	#559
jacmyoung Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 1,421	Thank you Herbie for introducing us to such a great system. I have mine working for the last 5 months without an emergency drain. I don't think one has to be afraid to try this system even if you don't have an extra hole in the box for an emergency drain, as long as you design the sump to accept all the flow from the main tank during power outage, and allow the pump chamber to run dry before the main tank can overflow. From my experience, when the drain is properly screened to prevent large items from clogging it, there is no reason the system can post any danger even without an emergency drain. Clogging, if any, will be a very slow process and very visible in your sump level change, and you have ample time to notice the change and correct it. Of course if you have an extra drain hole for emergency all the better, but I hope people who currently are contemplating this system but only has one drain and one return line not be deterred by the fear of some imaginary tank overflow risk with this system, as long as you don't hold me responsible for any problems that may occur

04/26/2006, 07:09 PM	#560
Mike.B Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 548	However though if you want your tank silent your overflow level has to be very high up with basically no water falling. So it wont take much water overflow your tank. jacmyoung is right though if you have tested it that your pump will run dry in the event of a clog great, just hope that you notice or are home so that you dont burn out your pump. This system is great, but without an emergency I dont think its worth it.

04/27/2006, 12:42 AM	#565
Cord Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 125	Don't make me read through the 5+ pages of replies, but won't an air valve screwed into the top of the standard durso regulate the amount of air entering the overflow, and adjust the water level in the overflow box? You just dial in your water level.

04/27/2006, 10:15 AM	#568
deadmanh Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: California, Huntington Beach Posts: 1,813	.

04/27/2006, 11:30 AM	#569
rdmpe Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,737	Another benefit - the drains do not produce any bubbles in the sump. So you can get higher flow rate through the sump without worry of microbubbles. Also there is much less salt spray in the sump area (mess) since the drain water isn't producing tons of bubbles.

04/28/2006, 06:56 AM	#570
Herbie Yep,that one Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Central PA Posts: 694	Hey all............. I just noticed that this thread is is up for POST OF THE MONTH !!! Thats cool.........I finally feel like it was worth all the trouble, and naysayers grief I had to deal with to post it. It was just my intent to be able to help.......even a few people........who have tried everything else to quiet down there tanks.......LIKE ME! All can say to the "naysyaers", is dont knock it untill you try it. It may not work for everybody, but at least we can see it works WELL for a LOT of people! http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=831439 Just to be considered for post of the month is worth it !!! RC will make it a sticky if it wins !!!! If this post has helped you quiet down your tank so you could keep your sanity.........nows the time to vote!!! THANKS ALL who have participated in this thread !!! Later.............Herbie Just making my 100th post worthwhile !!!!!

04/28/2006, 01:15 PM	#574
Nathan Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Newtown, Pa., USA Posts: 1,454	...and my vote too! Let's hope you win! This is really the best overflow/return method around! -Nathan

04/28/2006, 02:18 PM	#575
jacmyoung Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 1,421	Added my vote also. I just want to expand a bit on the "no emergency drain" concept to see if the below makes sense to anyone: As I noted earlier, if one designed the sump properly, and have a properly screened drain intake, the only concern you may have with this method (minus the emergency drain) will be the prospect of your return pump running dry due to slow clogging, therefore cause demage to the pump and the livestock. When I experimented with my system by not making any adjustment, waiting for the slight clogging to do its damage, I never let it reach the point of the return pump running dry, but it usually took a week for the water to drop very low in the pump chamber to be close to the pump intake. Which means I would have enough time to correct any clogging problem. Now what if I let the water continue to drop so the pump start to suck air? How soon should we expect the pump to run dry, get demaged, or to see livestock in the tank dropping like flies? Well not anytime soon, certainly will be much longer than a week, because once the pump starts to suck in air, the flow rate drops, and so the system self-adjust to balance out the slower flow rate in the drain (due to minor clogging). We all know that pumps sucking some air will do no harm since skimmers use pumps to inject air all the time, and as long as there is water pumped through at the same time. What you will notice is air bubbles begin to show up in the display tank from the return nozzle. So the question is really how long does it take for a reefer to do something about it when he starts to notice the air in the main tank, assume he totally missed the water level change in the sump for the last week. Or the question should really be, if he still manages to allow the pump to run dry after all this time, is he really qualified to keep a reef tank in the first place? Of course if an auto top-off is used in the sump this will not work.