AquaIllumination PAR Measurements

[Dark_Reef]

Originally Posted by CJO

They have fairly regular updates, though they are not on a monthly timetable.

I haven't looked at the programming for the VDM yet, by using the variable outputs on the Apex unit and the newest firmware, it is fairly trivial to program sunrise and sunsets for my DIY LED lights. I have the royal blues dim from 0% to 100% in the half hour before sunrise and do the opposite for the half hour after sunset. The whites dim from 0% to 100% over two hours starting at sunrise and do the opposite toward sunset.

CJ

Well it is also very easy to just use the controller that came with AI Light. The point of the VDM was to be able to do "more". I do not see a use for the VDM other then adding more pumps which is one thing that I do need. It is WAY to hard for 99% of the people out there to be able to even setup and gain any benefit over the AI controller.

I would like to know peoples take on the gain in controllability offset by the amount of programming necessary compared to the AI Controller.

The one thing that I wanted (that the profilux does VERY easily) is to be able to do cloudy day/nights at random. I do not see that as even a possibiliy even with major programming. If someone actually has a program to do this please let me know. I do not want to purchase a Profilux but I also do not want to spend hours and hours programming when I can just plug in a profilux and have it working in mins.

One more thing, I only see this getting worse (more complicated) once the code is released to control the third blue channel you will have 50% more programming and extra profiles used that I already do not have. (I have 12 controllable pumps and I am already low on profiles)

[rostato]

Originally Posted by MedRed

calmseas... so you think 80% blue and 50% white for a two hour duration will be detrimental?

Starting out, yes. I would not go over 30-40% white depending on height of light, and depth of corals.

You have the Sol Blue, or white?

If its the white, I would not go over 30% white to start.

It took me 3-4 months to get to 60% white when I had the sol white.

Now with the sol blue, I had to scale back my blues to less than 80% because I started to bleach some corals. I'm just glad I caught it.

[k.tran]

What if I were to get a SOL blue and a SOL white then interchange the lights so its kinda like

SW/SB/SW/SB

Would that work out??

[MedRed]

Originally Posted by rostato

Starting out, yes. I would not go over 30-40% white depending on height of light, and depth of corals.

You have the Sol Blue, or white?

If its the white, I would not go over 30% white to start.

It took me 3-4 months to get to 60% white when I had the sol white.

Now with the sol blue, I had to scale back my blues to less than 80% because I started to bleach some corals. I'm just glad I caught it.

I've got the Sol Blue's. 2 units on a 24 x 24 x 24 Cube. What would be the max I can use for a 2 hour burst in blue and white and a max for all day blue and white for starting out?

[effin]

Originally Posted by Dark_Reef

I would like to know peoples take on the gain in controllability offset by the amount of programming necessary compared to the AI Controller.

The one thing that I wanted (that the profilux does VERY easily) is to be able to do cloudy day/nights at random. I do not see that as even a possibiliy even with major programming. If someone actually has a program to do this please let me know. I do not want to purchase a Profilux but I also do not want to spend hours and hours programming when I can just plug in a profilux and have it working in mins.

I didn't buy the VDM for extra functionality (necessarily). I bought it so that I can have all of my controls in one place. I doubt I'll do anything on the Apex that I couldn't do with the AI controller. I don't have my lights or controller yet, but my programming won't be too complicated. I setup 4 profiles - a ramp up and down for each channel (I won't be using the 'Sun' feature). I'll just use those profiles with simple time statements. I'll add a 5th profile for using the blue channel as a moonlight.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I doubt there are too many people willing to shell out for a Profilux strictly for clouds and lighting.

What I don't see available with the Apex that I'd like is an easy way to manual adjust the intensities on the fly. This would be especially helpful when initially dialing in the color mix. It would also be useful for turning down the lights for new fish introductions, etc.

[CJO]

Originally Posted by Dark_Reef

The one thing that I wanted (that the profilux does VERY easily) is to be able to do cloudy day/nights at random. I do not see that as even a possibiliy even with major programming.

I don't have an AI or a VDM, so take into account with my answer. I took a quick look at the VDM manual. It looks like it is fairly easy to initiate a cloudy day or night or a storm. However, I don't think that you have the ability to do it randomly.

CJ

[rostato]

Originally Posted by MedRed

I've got the Sol Blue's. 2 units on a 24 x 24 x 24 Cube. What would be the max I can use for a 2 hour burst in blue and white and a max for all day blue and white for starting out?

How high off the tank are your lights, and how deep are the corals in your tank?

[MedRed]

This is my tank.

[IMG]http://i52.*******.com/2n1cllu.jpg[/IMG]


My lights are roughly 6-7" from the surface. I don't have any corals as of yet as i'm cycling. At some point I will have corals near the top of the spires. The tallest spire is around 21" high

[Dark_Reef]

Originally Posted by effin

I didn't buy the VDM for extra functionality (necessarily). I bought it so that I can have all of my controls in one place. I doubt I'll do anything on the Apex that I couldn't do with the AI controller. I don't have my lights or controller yet, but my programming won't be too complicated. I setup 4 profiles - a ramp up and down for each channel (I won't be using the 'Sun' feature). I'll just use those profiles with simple time statements. I'll add a 5th profile for using the blue channel as a moonlight.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I doubt there are too many people willing to shell out for a Profilux strictly for clouds and lighting.

What I don't see available with the Apex that I'd like is an easy way to manual adjust the intensities on the fly. This would be especially helpful when initially dialing in the color mix. It would also be useful for turning down the lights for new fish introductions, etc.

Do you already have your VDM working? Did you feel it was easy to setup?

I am still waiting for GHL to get back with me but I figure for the II (bare bones) it will be around $250 for just the unit to control the lights. I dont feel that is too much to pay for the extra features. I just want my cloudy days!!!

[rostato]

Originally Posted by MedRed

This is my tank.

My lights are roughly 6-7" from the surface. I don't have any corals as of yet as I'm cycling. At some point I will have corals near the top of the spires. The tallest spire is around 21" high

Well, I wouldn't even use lights during the cycle personally.

But once you get some corals in there you can start ramping it up. What I would do is Keep the lights at no more than 30% on both until your tank is fully stock with the corals you want. Then slowly add 5% every two weeks to your peak ramp up period.

Thats me though, I am always on the cautious side. I'd rather let a coral get just enough to survive than have it be bleached, and wait 7 months for it to get it's color back.

Then again, 30% on your setup will probably be more than enough to start with


Again, I am no expert, just giving you knoweledge from my 7 months of using these modules, and reading a ton on them.

[rostato]

Originally Posted by Dark_Reef

Do you already have your VDM working? Did you feel it was easy to setup?

I am still waiting for GHL to get back with me but I figure for the II (bare bones) it will be around $250 for just the unit to control the lights. I dont feel that is too much to pay for the extra features. I just want my cloudy days!!!

Why not just go with a full profilux? Is it because you have so many pumps to control that you would need an expansion box or something? Just curious

[Dark_Reef]

Originally Posted by CJO

I don't have an AI or a VDM, so take into account with my answer. I took a quick look at the VDM manual. It looks like it is fairly easy to initiate a cloudy day or night or a storm. However, I don't think that you have the ability to do it randomly.

CJ

I would not consider creating a minimum of 3 profiles, a virtual outlet, and setting all associated outlets to to advanced easy or simple. An that is basically to get the light to just do sunrise, day, and sunset. If you have different values for white and blue you can basically double your efforts. And wait until the Royal Bule is controllable we will have triple the work.

I love the Apex but the VDM has a long way to go before it can be used by the masses, I will be using mine as additional tunze ports for now.

[Dark_Reef]

Originally Posted by rostato

Why not just go with a full profilux? Is it because you have so many pumps to control that you would need an expansion box or something? Just curious

Well I actually just sold my 3 EX thinking that I did not need it because of the VDM would do the same, boy was I wrong. I hopefully can get a II bare bones that can control the AI for cheap.

Also, I have 12 Tunze Pumps that I need to control, plus I do like the advanced programming for alerting and PH control.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by MedRed

I've got the Sol Blue's. 2 units on a 24 x 24 x 24 Cube. What would be the max I can use for a 2 hour burst in blue and white and a max for all day blue and white for starting out?

I'll be the first to admit, I don't yet have a handle on comparing the photoinhibition effects of a consistent amount of PAR, contrasted by short bursts or larger PAR values. It's an area that I need to study further. Your challenge are those spires - they are so close to the surface and your lights, and far away from the rest of the area that will house corals. It will be a bit tricky coming up with a lighting plan that works well for both.

Also important - what are going to place in the highest PAR areas? If you purchase a staghorn that was living happily directly below a 400w MH, than you've got options. Without a PAR meter, I'd start no higher than ~40%/40% and I don't think I'd use an mid-day PAR increases until you get a feel for how things are reacting (it eliminates one more variable.) Even then, the right spire will be a hot spot. What settings were your AI's at when you took those photo's? It's hard to judge looking at a photograph, but I'd estimate anything mounted atop the right spire would be reduced to ashes in short order.

For reference, keep in mind I have 2 AIs elevated ~14 above a 24"X20"X20" tank that is primarily SPS. I've killed more SPS through bleaching than I care to recall, and I've never had my settings higher than about 60% total power.

Resist the urge to turn the dial until it "appears" bright. If it's bright to your eye, it's very likely too much PAR. Then just go slow. Corals that are receiving too little PAR may initially brown out, but they will quickly recover. Corals hit with too much PAR often quickly bleach and die - or take many months to recover... Less is definitely better as it applies to initial acclimation to LEDs.

Originally Posted by k.tran

What if I were to get a SOL blue and a SOL white then interchange the lights so its kinda like

SW/SB/SW/SB

Would that work out??

You can easily interchange pucks (3 LEDs are soldered directly to each puck) between SOL whites and SOL blue, in fact I considered doing it. The problem is control. Because the blue/white ratios are reversed, you'd be cross-controlling the blue and white channels on the interchanged pucks (which may or may not be an issue for you.) If you decide to try it, there are quite a few of us that upgraded to SOL blues that have left over SOL white pucks (I've got 16 of em) that could probably be had cheap.

As for VDM programming, I received my Apex shipment containing the VDM, PM2 and salinity probe, but I'm on the road for much of the next week and won't have a chance to play with it for a while. Hopefully Ken and the rest of the Apex guru's will have perfected the programming so it will be little more than cut and paste

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[artur]

Ok I just got my SOL blues tonight, and let me just say wow!!
These lights are amazing!!
i got one AI unit over a 24inch cobe tank that has been set up since 2008, mostly zoanthids and a few sps, and Im starting the AI at 30% both colors, due to my canopy configuration the fixture right now sit at like 2 or 3 inches above the water, I will try to work on it this weekend so the light may be at 5 to 6 in above by the next week
Earlier I read that the AI controller has an option for up to 8 intensity set points throgh the day! Mine just has one intensity plus sunset and sunrise how can I get the update
i know I owe you pic I'll try to work on those over the weekend as well
saludos!!!

[k.tran]

Originally Posted by CalmSeasQuest

You can easily interchange pucks (3 LEDs are soldered directly to each puck) between SOL whites and SOL blue, in fact I considered doing it. The problem is control. Because the blue/white ratios are reversed, you'd be cross-controlling the blue and white channels on the interchanged pucks (which may or may not be an issue for you.) If you decide to try it, there are quite a few of us that upgraded to SOL blues that have left over SOL white pucks (I've got 16 of em) that could probably be had cheap.

So if I were to interchange the pucks, using the SOL blue fixtures into :
W/B/W/B
B/W/B/W

Then I wouldnt be able to controll the whites? Just the blues? Im confused with this right now.

Thanks
-Kelvin

[wickedfish]

I mentioned I bleached 3 expensive frags. Well, semi bleached them and now I am finding myself turning these suckers down at peak. To less than 60% for both. I too am at 7" above water.
Do yourself a huge favor RED chart map at different %'s. I charted my par every 5% increment but at 15" off the water.
I wish I would have done it at the 7" but the homies par meter is out of commision, and I am lost. I have since pulled the corals and moved them. The Multi colored turoki is gonna have to tough it out its completely encrusted on the rock.

[rostato]

Originally Posted by artur

Ok I just got my SOL blues tonight, and let me just say wow!!
These lights are amazing!!
i got one AI unit over a 24inch cobe tank that has been set up since 2008, mostly zoanthids and a few sps, and Im starting the AI at 30% both colors, due to my canopy configuration the fixture right now sit at like 2 or 3 inches above the water, I will try to work on it this weekend so the light may be at 5 to 6 in above by the next week
Earlier I read that the AI controller has an option for up to 8 intensity set points throgh the day! Mine just has one intensity plus sunset and sunrise how can I get the update
i know I owe you pic I'll try to work on those over the weekend as well
saludos!!!

As mentioned eariler in the thread all you have to do is create a support ticket on AI's web site, and ask them for the beta firmware.

[rostato]

Originally Posted by k.tran

So if I were to interchange the pucks, using the SOL blue fixtures into :
W/B/W/B
B/W/B/W

Then I wouldn't be able to control the whites? Just the blues? I'm confused with this right now.

Thanks
-Kelvin

No, you can control them, the problem is that the channels on the SOL white, and Blue are reversed. So if you change out half your pucks to the SOL white then your channel 1 would have 8 whites, and 8 blues being controlled. that would probably be hard to get the wright color combination.

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by artur

Ok I just got my SOL blues tonight, and let me just say wow!!
These lights are amazing!!
i got one AI unit over a 24inch cobe tank that has been set up since 2008, mostly zoanthids and a few sps, and Im starting the AI at 30% both colors, due to my canopy configuration the fixture right now sit at like 2 or 3 inches above the water, I will try to work on it this weekend so the light may be at 5 to 6 in above by the next week
Earlier I read that the AI controller has an option for up to 8 intensity set points throgh the day! Mine just has one intensity plus sunset and sunrise how can I get the update
i know I owe you pic I'll try to work on those over the weekend as well
saludos!!!

Congrats Artur!

Covering a 24" area when mounting in a canopy can be tough. It will be important to get your AI raised as high as possible to provide maximum coverage. Hopefully you don't have aquascaping that places corals high-up toward the perimeters of the tank.

The additional ramps are provided through the updated firmware, which I think is still referred to as beta (although it's been available for months.) To get it, just submit a trouble ticket and it will be sent to you via email.

Originally Posted by k.tran

So if I were to interchange the pucks, using the SOL blue fixtures into :
W/B/W/B
B/W/B/W

Then I wouldnt be able to controll the whites? Just the blues? Im confused with this right now.

Thanks
-Kelvin

It would be very difficult to obtain the stated LED pattern as the blue/white ratio on the pucks is fixed. The SOL whites are W/W/B. The SOL Blues are W/B/RB. Unless you desoldered and resoldered individual LEDs (not mounted on stars) you're restricted to interchanging pucks.

The controllability issue when mixing pucks would mean you would cross-control some blues/whites (i.e. If you replaced 1/2 of the pucks in a SOL White unit with SOL Blue pucks, 1 blue LED on each of the SOL Blue pucks would be illuminated and controlled on the white channel.)

They would all still be variable, just a bit cluttered.

Originally Posted by wickedfish

I mentioned I bleached 3 expensive frags. Well, semi bleached them and now I am finding myself turning these suckers down at peak. To less than 60% for both. I too am at 7" above water.
Do yourself a huge favor RED chart map at different %'s. I charted my par every 5% increment but at 15" off the water.
I wish I would have done it at the 7" but the homies par meter is out of commision, and I am lost. I have since pulled the corals and moved them. The Multi colored turoki is gonna have to tough it out its completely encrusted on the rock.

This perfectly illustrates the recurring theme of this thread. Even with access to a PAR meter, it's easy to over do it. This is due to 2 factors,

PAR meters underestimate the PAR value of the very blue component of LED light. Sanjay had estimated about -~15%. Based on my observations and depending on the color output, I've come to believe it may be even higher with very blue light (perhaps -20%~-25% or more.)

Perceived Brightness - At equal PAR, LED light appears "less bright" when compared to MH or T5.
LEDs are very efficient at generating PAR. The vast majority of total light output falls within the PAR range (400nm-700nm.) Light at the low-end of the spectrum (blue) doesn't appear as bright to the human eye as higher nanometer light (reds), even though very little PAR is created by higher nanometer light (above 700nm.) Along the lines of a picture is worth a thousand words...


Here are spectral plots of the SOL white and SOL blue Aquaillumination LEDs. Note that the vast majority of the light output is within 400-700nm (it's all PAR) and that very little light in the red range is generated. Tons of PAR, but it's perceived to be less bright as similar PAR light from T5 or MH bulbs.



Here's a spectral plot of a Giesmann Pure Actinic T5 bulb. This bulb peaks at around 412nm and is very blue/purple. It does not however appear to be very bright as the vast majority of it's light output is very low nanometer light.



In contrast, here's a Giesemann Midday Sun T5 bulb. This bulb is about 6000K in color and generates much higher nanometer light than either the AIs' or the actinic bulb, therefor appearing to be much brighter at equal wattage.

This is why it's so important to start with lower power settings and increase slowly, watching for signs on photoinhibition.

I'm not just the photoinhibition spokesman - I'm also a client

I've done this TWICE and worse yet, the second time was after I had acquired a PAR meter. I simply didn't beleive/understand how Acropora could by over-illuminated by less than 500 par when coming from "seemingly" similar values under MH - especially as it just didn't "look" to be that bright.

Learn from my mistakes - Start low and increase slow.

[wesley6610]

CalmSeasQuest, what would you consider low PAR values to start at? I'm using a DIY unit and am starting at 120 PAR at the sand to 400 PAR at the water surface with the light suspended 12 inches high. It seems like photoinhibition is either still happening or just the lack of good coloration under LEDs is the culprit, hard to tell just yet since we haven't figured out the missing spectrum for good coloring-up.

[bolo7735]

Thank you CSQ for posting those data. I am amazed how the LED can produced as much or more then MH and still look dimmed to our eyes. So you are saying the PAR meter will not read the PAR accurate under the blue/rb LEDs?

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by wesley6610

CalmSeasQuest, what would you consider low PAR values to start at? I'm using a DIY unit and am starting at 120 PAR at the sand to 400 PAR at the water surface with the light suspended 12 inches high. It seems like photoinhibition is either still happening or just the lack of good coloration under LEDs is the culprit, hard to tell just yet since we haven't figured out the missing spectrum for good coloring-up.

Hi Wesley and welcome to the thread!

I agree, at the start it can be very tough to get a good read on whats happening (except for bleaching which is pretty easy to discern.) It obviously largely depends on the coral type, but for reference. Even after a year under LEDs, my top SPS shelf still averages less than 400 PAR. My experience isn't typical as I've been using my tanks largely as test beds and have had multiple battles with photoinhibition issues.

If I were starting over again, I'd initially shoot for about 100PAR on the substrate and no more than 300 on top, then slowly increase from there closely watching the results. It will take a while to determine the optimal levels for your livestock.

It's hard to be handed all that power and not use it, but at least you won't have my collection of white skeletons.

Good luck, post pictures and VOTE

[CalmSeasQuest]

Originally Posted by bolo7735

Thank you CSQ for posting those data. I am amazed how the LED can produced as much or more then MH and still look dimmed to our eyes. So you are saying the PAR meter will not read the PAR accurate under the blue/rb LEDs?

Yes - Based on my experience and comments from those who know much more than I (i.e. Sanjay) that is correct.

As I understand it, PAR meters are calibrated to measure sunlight or electric light. The Apogee MQ-200 user manual indicates the electric setting is based on cool white fluorescent with correction factors for metal halide or high pressure sodium. The large amount of high PAR blue light we deal with seems to "trick" the PAR meters and goes under-reported. The exact amount of error remains a variable based on how much high PAR blue spectrum is contained in the light being sampled.

I have personally experienced Acropora that were thriving under 500PAR of MH/T5, quickly bleach and die under 500PAR of LED. That said it's possible other variables could have played a role in the demise of the corals (water quality/change, ALK swing, flow...) but it's hard to interpret bleaching that begins almost immediately as being caused by any other issue.

Please don't misinterpret this as to mean a PAR meter isn't an important tool, they are still hugely valuable. Just make sure you start LED acclimation using LESS than the amount of PAR your corals were receiving under your prior lighting and adjust slowly thereafter.

[CJO]

Originally Posted by Dark_Reef

I would not consider creating a minimum of 3 profiles, a virtual outlet, and setting all associated outlets to to advanced easy or simple. An that is basically to get the light to just do sunrise, day, and sunset. If you have different values for white and blue you can basically double your efforts. And wait until the Royal Bule is controllable we will have triple the work.

I love the Apex but the VDM has a long way to go before it can be used by the masses, I will be using mine as additional tunze ports for now.

I hope this is not too far off topic, but it appears that several people have ordered or are going to order VDMs for use with their AI lights. Hopefully this will be helpful for everyone using the VDM.

I'm not sure what you consider too hard. To create a profile for the sunrise and/or sunset, you only have to select a profile, name it, set the control type to ramp and fill in three areas (ramp time, start intensity and end intensity). You can reuse these for each of the lights if you want to use the same parameters or create new ones if you want to adjust the parameters for a light. If you are using the SUN command, it will automatically use the same profile for sunset as it used for sunrise.

For instance, in my aquarium I am dimming two sets of lights, blue and white, for which I wanted two different ramp times. Therefore, I created two profiles, which I named W_Sun and B_Sun:

Name: W_Sun
Type: Ramp
Ramp time (minutes): 120
Start intensity: 0
End intensity: 100

Name: B_Sun
Type: Ramp
Ramp time (minutes): 30
Start intensity: 0
End intensity: 100

When you add the VDM, it automatically creates two outlets, one for each light which are named BluLED_X_5 and WhtLED_X_6.

You put the programming under each of the outlets:

WhtLED_X_6
Fallback OFF
If Sun 0/-120 Then W_Sun

BluLED_X_6
Fallback OFF
If Sun -30/0 Then B_Sun

This starts the blue LED ramping up 30 minutes before sunrise (delay -30 minutes from sunrise). The white LEDs then come up at sunrise for the next 2 hours (delay 0 minutes from sunrise). 2 hours before sunset, the white LEDs start ramping down (delay -120 minutes from sunset). At sunset, the blues ramp down to zero (delay 0 minutes from sunset).

Things get slightly more complicated if you add in weather or other options- I have mine set so that I can change it from a 10,000 K look to a 14,000 K look to a 20,000 K look. I can explain further if anyone is interested.

CJ