DIY Natureef Style Denitrator Build and Data thread...

[hans24hrs]

Hey Delmo, thank you again for all your help last night. I really appreciate it. Was a pleasure speaking with you. I checked the nitrate about 5 minutes before it was scheduled to flush water. They were around a 5ppm. I am going to supplementally add some more nitragone as you suggested to jump start bacteria. I did notice the reactors side walls were looking a little hazy so that is good. Hopefully bacteria population will recover fast.

[delmo]

You're welcome. The key is to be at 0 nitrates before the flush. You have lost a lot of bacteria, so now you need more methanol, or time per cycle.

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[hans24hrs]

I am going to test it again tonight, had to work overnights last couple of nights.

[fend78]

I am trying to set one up this weekend. I have the culture and the nitragone. But, I need instructions on setting the whole thing up etc. Can anyone email me the manual? fend78@gmail.com

[bmanzie]

DrThompson, how do you measure your phosphates in the denitrator? I am seeing something weird with my Hanna test kit.

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by bmanzie

DrThompson, how do you measure your phosphates in the denitrator? I am seeing something weird with my Hanna test kit.

Hey Bill,
I dont measure my phosphates in the chamber anymore. I mainly use the strontium nitrate additive to ensure the cycle doesnt go sulfur. I add a dose of strontium nitrate about 1.5 hours before the end of a cycle to make sure the bacteria still has a little nitrate to use.

To control phosphates I use GFO; I found the strontium nitrate only has a small effect on lowering phosphates. I've also found that increasing the strontium dose has little effect on controlling phosphates.

I know you dose Lanthanum in the chamber. If you want to test the chamber water I suggest you filter it thru a coffee filter before you test the water. Remember, the Lanthanum permanently binds with phosphate and precipitates out as a sticky white substance. You are probably getting high readings for phosphate because you are scooping up Lanthanum phosphate when you test the chamber water.

[bmanzie]

Thanks for your comments. That is probably exactly what is happening. Test vial does not turn color however it is still reading as high. I will do the coffee filter trick.
Thanks

[Rue28]

Just finished reading this whole tread from start to finish....really great information presented in a very clear manner.

I am just getting back into the hobby. I previously ran a Natureef denitrator for about three years in a 150G tank. I loved the system until a fuse blew on the nasty cheap garden irrigation timer that the Natureef denitrator is fitted with. I had grown complacent with the awesome "set it and forget it" ability of a system like this and wasn't doing checks on water stats after three years....you all know what happens next.

This time I am starting the set up on a 280 DT with a total water volume of 350g (adding sump and refugium) and will run with an apex controller to dose Methanol and then GFO the phosphates down....seems like a safer way to go based on what I'm reading here.

1) This system works.... amazingly well. (Just don't set it and forget it as I did in the past)
2) Natureef really should hire a marketing person because they are completely incompetent at selling their products which would make entry into these systems easier for the non-DIY people in the hobby....or how about selling a tank and doser that is apex controller ready.... (the garden timer is a real turn off)

Anyway....main point that I wanted to make was thank you for sharing such valuable and well documented information. Awesome thread!

[delmo]

This thread's been too quiet. Any how, my system is still running great and still undersized and cycling 6x daily, but keeping an overfed 90 at bay. Nitrates always at 2.5 unless my pump needs maintenance. I have a larger chamber 25x16x8 and when I am physically able, and heal up well enough from back surgery, I'll change out the chamber. Hope everyone is doing well.

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[mrx66699]

mine has taken off and still keeps things pristine....

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[elviraveloz]

The same here, can't imagine a Reef tank without it.

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by elviraveloz

The same here, can't imagine a Reef tank without it.

Same here, nice to know I don't worry about nitrates

[ReefKeeper64]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Tough question to answer. I'm more of a "what works best for you" kinda person. I have many friends who use and love vodka and/or vinegar. I have friends who use and love biopellets. I've been using the biodenitrator for over 2 years and have had great success with it.

Here's my take on different forms of carbon dosing:

Biopellets, vodka, vinegar, sugar, and methanol are all forms of carbon dosing. They all fuel heterotrophic bacteria that use the carbon as a food source. The bacteria will only use nitrogen when the oxygen is low (anoxic). Generally, all of these will require a GOOD skimmer to work properly since the excess bacteria will become a food source for nuisance bacteria if not properly skimmed.

With vodka, vinegar and sugar dosing the bacteria has to find a home and a place to grow within your system. Usually somewhere there is low-flow or low oxygen.(between rocks, on piping, inside sump, in the sandbed...etc) I have personally never used this form of carbon dosing but the dosing seems more of an art-form than a science experiment. To coin a phrase, it is dosed based on your "tank personality".

Biopellet reactors are good that they give the bacteria a virtual unlimited supply of carbon and the bacteria will grow on the pellets and in the reactor. Personally, I think biopellets are a GREAT way to reduce nitrates. I still think the reactors need some tweaking though. I think the best biopellet reactor is a recirculating reactor where you can control the effluent/output and the contact time.

Our methanol denitrator provides a reaction chamber for the bacteria to grow quickly to remove nitrates. The chamber is completely separate from the system. Once established the results are instantly measurable; when each cycle is complete the water in the chamber is free of nitrates. The "nitrate free" water is flushed back into the system and the cycle starts over. Many people who are successful with these methanol type biodenitrators will do fewer water changes or even stop them all together. With larger systems, the idea of decreased water changes is VERY appealing and also becomes cost effective.

On a special note:
What my biodenitrator allows me to do is have an increased bioload (more fish). Also, I like the fact that I dont have to worry about how much I feed. I tend to be an over-feeder; I like to keep my fish happy. I have a 200gal system with 30fish(4 of them are tangs) and feed 4 cubes of frozen food twice a day. I also add a small nori sheet daily. My nitrates hold steady at 2.5mg/L on the salifert test kit. I have softies, LPS, and SPS that flourish in this environment.

I would HIGHLY recommend a methanol biodenitrator to anyone who has the space for one. I realize the chamber takes up space and that is often a limiting factor for smaller systems.

Hello denitrator gurus!

I just spent about an hour reading back and forth through this thread and this quote from DrThompson is the best summary I could find that describes what is going on. Please help me to better understand this concept.

- Is this an aerobic or anaerobic denitrification process?

- There is no media in the reactor to support anaerobic denitrification. Would adding media to the chamber have negative or positive affects? If so, how?

- What is the benefit of Methanol vs other carbon sources such as vinegar and vodka?

- The mechanics of how this works (please add more details, make corrections, etc.)

• DT water is pumped into the reactor at set intervals throughout the day. I've read once every 8 hours.
  A dose of methanol is then added via doser.
  The water/methanol mix is recirculated for 8+ hours. Slow recirc or fast? How many ml/min?
  After a set time of 8+ hours, another batch of DT water is pumped into the reactor and that inturn pushes the treated water back out to the DT. The process starts over again

Thanks!
Chris
Tampa, FL

[delmo]

You have the basics down.
Each tank has different amounts of fish and feeding habits.
So with that you will get different size chambers (usually about 5-15% of dt size, in my experience) and different amounts of cycles per day.
For instance I started with a 5 gallon Nature chamber on my 55 gal, and cycled 4x/day (every 6 hours) for a few years, added more fish and upped it to 6x/day (every 4 hours). I upgraded to a 90gal via catastrophic circumstances and had to change to 4x a day then up to 6x/day again for the last 2 years.
I just upgraded my denitrification chamber to a 15 gal and now I am babysitting my chamber to get it up to where it wants to be. It is finishing cycles (undetectable nitrates) at 6 hour intervals, but only if I supplement extra methanol manually along with my doser's dose.
To clear up one aspect I heard you have, you feed the methanol right after it flushes, and let the bacteria eat it up along with the nitrates. If you don't have enough methanol, it won't get to 0, but too much and it will "go sulphur" and stink just before the flush, and lower your pH. It is technical. But once you get it dialed in and have a good bacteria population, it is pretty much on autopilot. Because I have a new chamber, I am waiting for the bacteria to attach and multiply itself on the egg crate lining I have along the outside walls of my chamber, as surface area. A recirculating power head must be used in the chamber to make sure the even distribution of methanol to all bacteria. But you do not want an airating surface agitation since the process is anaerobic (without oxygen). You will have to clean the power head monthly to clean the slimy bacteria off of it to get it moving water up to speed again.
So to answer your question of best method, this is it, because it is easily quatifiable, you know if you have a fished cycle through testing. Everything else is too much long term maintenance or downright guessing.
I been doing this 13 years.
Hope this helps

P.S. Get a good test kit. Like Salifert. The API will usually say 0 even when it is not.

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[ReefKeeper64]

Thanks for the details on all of this. 13 years using one of these (or reefing in general) says I lot. This definitely helps.

Once more question as I like to understand the why in all of this. Why Methanol vs Vinegar? I know this is probably a FAQ that has to be buried in this thread somewhere but I missed it.

Thanks,
Chris

[delmo]

DrThompson I believe, has explained this somewhere on here. If I remember right, I think it has to do with the types of bacteria produced from each, and have different styles in which they can be utilized. Batch processing is very measurable and maintainable, but only through methanol as a food source.

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[delmo]

Ok, so after upgrading chamber size, I had to go through a cycle again. It was finishing in 6 hours at first, (with all the water and bacteria from the old chamber traded over)but the bacteria was not attached to the walls and such, so each flush would wash away bacteria into the DT. So I was going backwards the first few cycles before I realized it, and with less and less bacteria, the cycles took longer and longer. So it just finished a cycle in 4.5 days. And now has bacteria attached finely, everywhere in the chamber. As it multiplies, the cycles will get shorter, and shorter, until I dial in them to be at 4x a day which in my opinion is optimal. Just thought I'd share, my first change of denitrator chamber.
The only adverse affect in the DT was a film developed on the top of the water, that I had to break up with a fine net, every other day, but now that the bacteria has died/dying in the dt, it is getting back to normal.

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[christ_pro]

Hello everyone.

I've being reading the forum many times and I finally set up my system, thank you Dr. T for the PDF. I have a few questions and hopefully someone can answer them. I need to get methanol, I found VP sells it but I just want to make sure It's safe to use, or should I go with eBay?
Can I use fritz formula 9 as starter culture?
Is a mag 5 good to fill the tank in between flushes?
I checked nitrates in my tank and surprisingly it's at 15, it used to be a lot higher. But I'll check it again and make sure I start dosing the right amount.
Thank you all you guys for the information given here.

I was trying to post a picture of the system but Inhave no clue what to do
Hi h

[christ_pro]

Sorry for the tipo errors as I was using my phone, it's a pain in the neck trying to do it here��

[delmo]

Where do you live? What we've done in the past is to ship a bottle of bacteria to whoever needs a starter.
How big is your chamber?
A Mag 5 is probably fine to FLUSH your chamber back into the sump.
You want a pump that can fill your chamber from empty in about 4-8 minutes or so and then use it to flush before each dosing cycle for about 30-45 minutes.
Try to get a 99%+ methanol and dilute it to 50% preferably before transport for safety, unless you have an actual race fuel canister.

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[christ_pro]

Originally Posted by delmo

Where do you live? What we've done in the past is to ship a bottle of bacteria to whoever needs a starter.
How big is your chamber?
A Mag 5 is probably fine to FLUSH your chamber back into the sump.
You want a pump that can fill your chamber from empty in about 4-8 minutes or so and then use it to flush before each dosing cycle for about 30-45 minutes.
Try to get a 99%+ methanol and dilute it to 50% preferably before transport for safety, unless you have an actual race fuel canister.

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The mag 5 filled the tank in about 4 min, the chamber if not wrong is 25g. But I'll take measurements tomorrow to confirm.
About the methanol, VP web page says it's 99.1% pure. I'll go with your advise and dilute it to 50%.
Here are some pics of the system.

Thank you for the quick replyIMG_6277.jpgIMG_6278.jpgIMG_6276.jpg



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[delmo]

Nice setup. Thats a big chamber. What size is the Display tank? Yeah, treat the methanol like gasoline...

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[christ_pro]

Originally Posted by delmo

Nice setup. Thats a big chamber. What size is the Display tank? Yeah, treat the methanol like gasoline...

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Thank you. The display is a 350 gallon reef. I plumbed the drain line close to the skimmer intake to minimize water from the chamber going in to the main tank.

My goal is to have a very stable system and try some sps corals, I have some that are doing good but I'd like to try different species,

Btw...... I live in broward county, city of Tamarac to be exact.




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[delmo]

Lol, So do I.... Maybe we could see each other's setup. I just got my denitrator going again from the upgrade, so I don't have a lot of removable bacteria, but I can probably get you some from a friend's tank I'm tank sitting.

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[christ_pro]

Originally Posted by delmo

Lol, So do I.... Maybe we could see each other's setup. I just got my denitrator going again from the upgrade, so I don't have a lot of removable bacteria, but I can probably get you some from a friend's tank I'm tank sitting.

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That would be awesome, what size is your upgrade?
I need to get the methanol this weekend, if you can get me a starting bacteria I'd really appreciate it.




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