New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[savanyo]

Originally Posted by rjallen

I have a 120 with a Bean Animal. My head is about 4.5'. The M1 works very well for me except I am having a hard time maintaining a siphon in my 1.5" drain. I did a volume test, with my return plumbing, I was somewhat disappointed to find my pump was only flowing around 1200 gph.
RJ

What kind of tank turn over are you trying to achieve? Bean animal with 1.5" drains in a 120G tank is probably overkill. A 1.5" drain on full siphon can probably handle around 5000GPH(my guess), which would be turning over a 120G tank about 40x per hour. I suggest using a bushing and installing a smaller diameter stand pipe for siphon drain.

[rjallen]

You make a very valid point. I returned to this hobby after a very long hiatus, 20+ years. I got my information from the long running Bean Animal thread. My greatest fear then was flooding due to inadequate drains and having those drains limit flow. I went with a MAG18. A little old fashioned today but even today, is still a great pump. With the'18, measured flow was only 1400 gph which is very much within my goal of 10+ turnover.

The variable flow and economy of the DC pumps has interested me for a long time. That's why I purchased the Vectra M1. The M1 for yet unknown reasons does not provide the same or more gph. as the '18. The MAG never had a problem keeping and maintaining a siphon and silent draining. The M1 cannot. A quick a dirty measurement of actual gph. with the M1= about 1200 gph.

BTW, during periods of lower flow, I never expected to maintain a siphon and quiet operation. I planned to use lower flow during the night time and during power outages. Tank is away from sleeping areas a little gurgle is not necessarily a bad thing. While 1200 to 1500 gph is fine for normal operation, I wanted to ability to up the flow rate on occasion to provide cleaning through a storm effect. That is the why of the 1.5" drains.

RJ

[ca1ore]

Installed my Vectra into a closed loop application yesterday. Here are a few observations:

1. Vectra is a very nice pump and certainly fairly priced. I'm really quite impressed. It is dead silent and very powerful. Thumbs up!
2. However, it's one of my pet peeves when you buy a piece of equipment and it doesn't have the parts you need to hook it up. Include the BPT to NPT adapters WITH the pump please.
3. Not loving the blue connectors - particularly for an external installation. They just look flimsy to me. Perhaps they're fine; though include a couple of spare collars in the event of gluing errors please.
4. As happy as I am with the pump, reeflink/eco smart live has proven to be a major PitA. I used an Ethernet connection as folks have suggested, but even so the pump kept disconnecting; and 'saving final configuration' was still going after an hour. Three hours of my life yesterday that I'm not getting back. Thumbs down!
5. I'd forgotten how much I dislike futzing with the buttons on the driver.

Simon

[CoralNerd]

On a closed loop application can actually pulse or does the pump have to wind up? Can it go zero to full blast very quickly?

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by CoralNerd

On a closed loop application can actually pulse or does the pump have to wind up? Can it go zero to full blast very quickly?

No, it does not 'pulse' like the vortechs do. It ramps more slowly, probably taking 10 seconds to go from lowest to highest. Not sure you'd want pulsing flow though external plumbing anyhow - well, I wouldn't.

[rjallen]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Installed my Vectra into a closed loop application yesterday. Here are a few observations:

1. Vectra is a very nice pump and certainly fairly priced. I'm really quite impressed. It is dead silent and very powerful. Thumbs up!
2. However, it's one of my pet peeves when you buy a piece of equipment and it doesn't have the parts you need to hook it up. Include the BPT to NPT adapters WITH the pump please.
3. Not loving the blue connectors - particularly for an external installation. They just look flimsy to me. Perhaps they're fine; though include a couple of spare collars in the event of gluing errors please.
4. As happy as I am with the pump, reeflink/eco smart live has proven to be a major PitA. I used an Ethernet connection as folks have suggested, but even so the pump kept disconnecting; and 'saving final configuration' was still going after an hour. Three hours of my life yesterday that I'm not getting back. Thumbs down!
5. I'd forgotten how much I dislike futzing with the buttons on the driver.

Simon

Simon, I am using EcoSmartLive with wireless router and have zero problems with disconnecting.

+1 as to the fittings. It is a mystery to me why why Eco Tech took this route. BPT is sorta an international standard and it tells me two things, 1. Eco Tech did not want to spend the money to develop two molds for the volute. International sales are more important to Eco Tech than domestic sales. As the the very pretty blue compression unions, they do seem fragile but as I have written many times, why take such a beautiful pump and strangle it with such small diameter fittings. From my experience with my existing plumbing the Vectra is far more affected by plumbing restrictions than pressure pumps like the Mag18 & 20.

Still I seem to think of a new way to use a pump like the Vectra every day. I do like Vectra's computer interface but my system is firmly planted in the Apex world...

I do think you will enjoy your Vectra. Please give us a followup about your impressions.

RJ

[savanyo]

Originally Posted by rjallen

You make a very valid point. I returned to this hobby after a very long hiatus, 20+ years. I got my information from the long running Bean Animal thread. My greatest fear then was flooding due to inadequate drains and having those drains limit flow. I went with a MAG18. A little old fashioned today but even today, is still a great pump. With the'18, measured flow was only 1400 gph which is very much within my goal of 10+ turnover.

The variable flow and economy of the DC pumps has interested me for a long time. That's why I purchased the Vectra M1. The M1 for yet unknown reasons does not provide the same or more gph. as the '18. The MAG never had a problem keeping and maintaining a siphon and silent draining. The M1 cannot. A quick a dirty measurement of actual gph. with the M1= about 1200 gph.

BTW, during periods of lower flow, I never expected to maintain a siphon and quiet operation. I planned to use lower flow during the night time and during power outages. Tank is away from sleeping areas a little gurgle is not necessarily a bad thing. While 1200 to 1500 gph is fine for normal operation, I wanted to ability to up the flow rate on occasion to provide cleaning through a storm effect. That is the why of the 1.5" drains.
RJ

Regarding tank/sump flow, I prefer lower sump flow with tank turnover in the range of 4-6x of volume and having additional power heads in the tank. It is much more efficient to generate flow using power heads, such as a vortech. A sump really does not need 10x flow to function properly. Additional, lower sump flow rate will allow for use of a smaller overflow that consumes less space in your tank and requires smaller less costly plumbing. Who wants a giant ugly overflow in your tank? I think it is also best to keep the sump flow constant and quiet all the time. Set it and forget it. For those who understandably do not like having power heads in their tank, then the best solution is to install a closed loop pump that runs in parallel with a low flow return pump, where the vectra would be great choice due to is quiet operation and controllability. As a return pump, I choose to go with a Deep Water BLDC5, which will use less power. This will allow for use of a bean animal overflow using three 1" drains. A 1" pipe on full siphon can handle 2000GPH. And for power head, I use a vortech.

John

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by rjallen

Simon, I am using EcoSmartLive with wireless router and have zero problems with disconnecting.

+1 as to the fittings. It is a mystery to me why why Eco Tech took this route. BPT is sorta an international standard and it tells me two things, 1. Eco Tech did not want to spend the money to develop two molds for the volute. International sales are more important to Eco Tech than domestic sales. As the the very pretty blue compression unions, they do seem fragile but as I have written many times, why take such a beautiful pump and strangle it with such small diameter fittings. From my experience with my existing plumbing the Vectra is far more affected by plumbing restrictions than pressure pumps like the Mag18 & 20.

Still I seem to think of a new way to use a pump like the Vectra every day. I do like Vectra's computer interface but my system is firmly planted in the Apex world...

I do think you will enjoy your Vectra. Please give us a followup about your impressions.

RJ

Given how much I hate the cludgy buttons, and the presumed lack of Apex control, I won't give up on reeflink quite yet. I have a rather short fuse when it comes to tech, so some time away from it ought to help.

BTW my guess on the thread choices is that the entire motor and volute assembly is outsourced and that a custom version with NPT would add unnecessary cost to the pump - particularly if ETM is going to charge incrementally for the adapters.

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Installed my Vectra into a closed loop application yesterday. Here are a few observations:

1. Vectra is a very nice pump and certainly fairly priced. I'm really quite impressed. It is dead silent and very powerful. Thumbs up!
2. However, it's one of my pet peeves when you buy a piece of equipment and it doesn't have the parts you need to hook it up. Include the BPT to NPT adapters WITH the pump please.
3. Not loving the blue connectors - particularly for an external installation. They just look flimsy to me. Perhaps they're fine; though include a couple of spare collars in the event of gluing errors please.
4. As happy as I am with the pump, reeflink/eco smart live has proven to be a major PitA. I used an Ethernet connection as folks have suggested, but even so the pump kept disconnecting; and 'saving final configuration' was still going after an hour. Three hours of my life yesterday that I'm not getting back. Thumbs down!
Simon

Agreed on all counts.

Re: 4
I moved my Reeflink all over thinking there may be interference (VorTechs and Radions have no issue). I just ended up turning off email alerts which isn't a good solution.

[SPotter]

I was unhappy about having to buy the fitting adapters but have gotten over it. My L1's have been running two weeks now and love them. It took me a little time to find that right spot for my reeflink and it has been flawless since then. Very happy with everything!

[ca1ore]

Did you guys have any trouble configuring the pump with reeflink? I went through the whole process only to have it bog down at the end and the message 'saving configuration' (or something like that) permanently on screen.

[rjallen]

Simon
Had the program crash - screen freeze one time. Just close and reboot. BTW, I was thinking why I had so few problems with Reef Link. I use a a wireless connection for my Apex. I hard wired the Apex to a bridge router which connects with the primary router. [Updates are hardwired directly to the primary] My reef link sits on a high cabinet within inches of the bridge. The primary is only 12 or so feet across the room so the signal is extremely good. Just a thought.

RJ

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by rjallen

Simon
Had the program crash - screen freeze one time. Just close and reboot. BTW, I was thinking why I had so few problems with Reef Link. I use a a wireless connection for my Apex. I hard wired the Apex to a bridge router which connects with the primary router. [Updates are hardwired directly to the primary] My reef link sits on a high cabinet within inches of the bridge. The primary is only 12 or so feet across the room so the signal is extremely good. Just a thought.

RJ

I've experienced the crash issue a few times too but noticed that the changes took. I usually wait a few minutes and try again to confirm the changes.

[ca1ore]

I will give it another try at some point (prior to the end of my 'return window'). Got better things to do tonight as a long-suffering Mets fan (though not as long-suffering as those other guys ).

Pump packs some serious punch. Kicking up sand that the prior pump barely moved - and that's just at 75%. It's a winner.

[ca1ore]

Spent another couple of hours tonight attempting to get Reeflink/ESL to work ... with mixed success. I am still unable to get the pump to calibrate via ESL, but I can do it manually via the driver buttons so I guess that's something. I have also been able to save a basic daily program to the Vectra in closed loop mode. Though I'm unable to add any new points to the default configuration, and when I exit ESL and come back later, none of my programming has saved - it's back to the default program.

I will attempt a conversation with ETM in the morning. If no acceptable resolution, I'm tempted to box everything and send it back; but I do like the pump, so will likely just send back the reeflink.

[Johnseye]

Oddly enough I connected my reeflink to my PC via USB, made the connection and that worked. Also, my wifi router was right next to it as well. The tank/Vectra are a couple rooms away. When I first tried I put the reeflink next to the tank plugged into the wifi adapter my Apex is plugged into. I think there might have been too much interference over there.

[ca1ore]

Spoke with ETM - they were helpful as always. I think my issue may stem from two things. One, I noticed that the 'W' on the Vectra driver was flickering (which none of my vortech's do) so the radio board may have jarred loose and need re-seating. So I shall do that. The other issue is that apparently you really need to use chrome for ESL. It says 'optimized for chrome' on the front page, but does not say that you have to use chrome. Would have saved me some time as apparently some of the programming features simply don't work with explorer. Maybe this is obvious to most, but it was not obvious to me. Anyhoo, hopefully, these will address my issues and all will be smooth sailing from here; and save somebody else a few hours of frustration

[rjallen]

Great to hear Simon!

I remember the part about Chrome. Since I am of the Black Helicopter crowd, I try to use only Firefox. Don't think the rare problems I encountered were the result of FireFox. If you were not having problems with your other Eco Tech products, I would just try to fix the board. Having a product dependent on one browser is not good thing.

The "W" on my controller would flash and I believe that is part of the linking process. The flashing soon give away to a solid "W".

[mal7887]

Originally Posted by rjallen

Still I seem to think of a new way to use a pump like the Vectra every day. I do like Vectra's computer interface but my system is firmly planted in the Apex world...

Same here. This is frustrating. Control is a must for me. IE being able to control the Vectra through the WXM. I promise this, if ETM decides not to make their products compatible with third party controllers going forward....it will be the last ETM product I ever buy... And that's a shame because they make quality products.

For me... Rather than having an overall positive experience and feeling with my Vectra, (which other than this snag happens to be a great pump) this whole back and forth has left a bad taste in my mouth.

It would be nice if someone from ETM would come out and say YES or NO it will or will not be compatible. . . I'm not asking for a timeline... just a FIRM, CLEAR answer. Product launch video says yes, support says no. Each company blames the other.

I don't care if ETM and Neptune are no longer seeing eye to eye, for the sake of your customer make it as cross platform compatible as possible.

[SPotter]

When I had the Apex I felt same way about having to be able to control my entire tank with the apex until the base unit and outlets on the energy bars started died leaving my system flying blind. Prior to switching to the vectras on my closed loop I never owned an ETM product before because I honestly felt they were overpriced but my opinion has totally been changed. As a result I've also added 2 mp40qd's to my system and absolutely love them. What I really like is that I've freed up 4 outlets on my power bar for my GHL controller (replaced the apex). This will actually allow me to use one less and/or sell one of my PAB's and since I needed 4 PAB's the ability to sell one is very attractive. I know we want to keep our systems as simple as possible but I think sometimes putting our eggs all in one basket can be a negative thing.

As far as one of them coming out with a definitive answer....that's like asking a politician to keep campaign promises.....it will never happen. If Neptune says they won't do it...some people will get upset and say they'll never buy their products again and vice versa for ETM.

[rjallen]

If you have a controller and want remote control of your system, sooner or later your eggs will be in one basket, whatever the name on that basket. That said having the ability to control your pumps, lights, etc with that basket AND the ability to have a fall back position- using stock controller or simply just plugging it in a let it run is mandatory. As good as Neptune's WAV, DOS, and I imagine COR, are or will be, with Aprexthey are just metal and plastic. You cannot just plug em in, you can't use timers.

Neptune's Terence, as he has presented in this thread, is calling for a common command language/ protocols that would give cross platform control. It's a wonderful idea but I am afraid I'm a bit skeptical.

RJ

[TerenceF]

Just to be clear, our products like the WAV, COR, DOS, EB8 outlets, etc. all have a fallback state so they CAN run in predetermined (safe) mode if they lose contact with the main Apex system.

True you cannot change the modes of these devices autonomously but I just wanted to make that point clear.

[mal7887]

Originally Posted by SPotter

When I had the Apex I felt same way about having to be able to control my entire tank with the apex until the base unit and outlets on the energy bars started died leaving my system flying blind. Prior to switching to the vectras on my closed loop I never owned an ETM product before because I honestly felt they were overpriced but my opinion has totally been changed. As a result I've also added 2 mp40qd's to my system and absolutely love them. What I really like is that I've freed up 4 outlets on my power bar for my GHL controller (replaced the apex). This will actually allow me to use one less and/or sell one of my PAB's and since I needed 4 PAB's the ability to sell one is very attractive. I know we want to keep our systems as simple as possible but I think sometimes putting our eggs all in one basket can be a negative thing.

As far as one of them coming out with a definitive answer....that's like asking a politician to keep campaign promises.....it will never happen. If Neptune says they won't do it...some people will get upset and say they'll never buy their products again and vice versa for ETM.

As always your mileage may very. I've been running my Apex system with 3 Energy bars and various modules for almost 4 years with no issues. It has saved my rear a few times too!

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by rjallen

If you have a controller and want remote control of your system, sooner or later your eggs will be in one basket, whatever the name on that basket. That said having the ability to control your pumps, lights, etc with that basket AND the ability to have a fall back position- using stock controller or simply just plugging it in a let it run is mandatory. As good as Neptune's WAV, DOS, and I imagine COR, are or will be, with Aprexthey are just metal and plastic. You cannot just plug em in, you can't use timers.

Neptune's Terence, as he has presented in this thread, is calling for a common command language/ protocols that would give cross platform control. It's a wonderful idea but I am afraid I'm a bit skeptical.

RJ

How will they all be in one basket? I can clearly control all of my tank with two baskets and no need for it to be in one.

[mal7887]

Originally Posted by SPotter

How will they all be in one basket? I can clearly control all of my tank with two baskets and no need for it to be in one.

My Question/Point is... Why not make it compatible with both 'baskets'?