DIY Natureef Style Denitrator Build and Data thread...

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by Sirhc

Is there anyone near plantation, FL that could donate/sell bacteria to me?

I live in Coral Springs. You can have some bacteria Free. Just stop by.

David
email me at president@fmas1955.org

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by Sirhc

Here is what I came up with so far. Going to try drilling tomorrow. Then all I need to do is source some bacteria and get some methanol. Thank you to all who have participated/helped with this thread, it has been very helpful to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Also, might want to consider adding some type of overflow or surface block for the drain. The BIO mass created by the bacteria floats to the top and can get caught in the drain.

[ohana888]

any new updates & data? thanks!

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by ohana888

any new updates & data? thanks!

Hey Doug,
I've been running the methanol denitrator on my 200gal reef tank for over 7 years now. My nitrates hold steady around 5ppm and I feed 12 cubes of frozen food per day for my 30 fish.

Lessons learned over the years:
- dont put eggcrate in the middle of the chamber. it get gooped up and blocks the flow
- use a wave type pump to move the water around (ie: mp10, mp40, rw4, rw8...etc) Set it on wave or pulse mode
- clean the internal pump every 6-9 months or when flow is too constricted.
- Phosphagone is Strontium Nitrate. dose nitrate at the last 3rd of cycle to prevent the bacteria from going into "sulfur mode". I dose my own mix of (Strontium, Sodium, and Potassium) Nitrate about 1.5 hours before the end of the cycle. This prevents the breakdown of sulfates and the "rotten egg" smell that can happen during flushing at the end of a cycle.
-Nitragone is 25% methanol. When making DIY nitragone, dose methanol at 25-50% strength. Pure methanol will damage your tubing and most containers.

msg me if you want my nitrate formula.

dave

[ohana888]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Hey Doug,
I've been running the methanol denitrator on my 200gal reef tank for over 7 years now. My nitrates hold steady around 5ppm and I feed 12 cubes of frozen food per day for my 30 fish.

Lessons learned over the years:
- dont put eggcrate in the middle of the chamber. it get gooped up and blocks the flow
- use a wave type pump to move the water around (ie: mp10, mp40, rw4, rw8...etc) Set it on wave or pulse mode
- clean the internal pump every 6-9 months or when flow is too constricted.
- Phosphagone is Strontium Nitrate. dose nitrate at the last 3rd of cycle to prevent the bacteria from going into "sulfur mode". I dose my own mix of (Strontium, Sodium, and Potassium) Nitrate about 1.5 hours before the end of the cycle. This prevents the breakdown of sulfates and the "rotten egg" smell that can happen during flushing at the end of a cycle.
-Nitragone is 25% methanol. When making DIY nitragone, dose methanol at 25-50% strength. Pure methanol will damage your tubing and most containers.

msg me if you want my nitrate formula.

dave

pmd you. thanks!

[vignesa]

I just setup my denitrator. I have been trying to cycle it. So far i have done 3 flushes over the last 2 weeks.

The volume is about 150 litres. My last cycle i dosed 40ml of methanol and 12 hours later another 10ml and the nitrates were down to 0 at the end of 24 hours.

So for the next batch i dosed 50ml of methanol and now 12 hours later nitrates are still not 0 but very low approx 5-10. I just dosed another 10ml and will test in 12 hours again.

How do i know that i am not dosing too much methanol? Or should i be waiting longer before dosing again.

thanks for any assistance.

[DRThompson]

Would be happy to help you with your Denitrator. I just want to be sure we are on the same page so I have a few questions.

Do you have any pictures of your denitrator?
Your Denitrator is 150L (almost 40gal) correct? why so large?
When you mention how much you dose...are you dosing 100% methanol?
What is the size of your fish tank system?
What is the current Nitrate reading for your fish tank system?
Can you see the bacteria slime biomass growing in the denitrator?

You can email me direct at drtpharmd99@aol.com I'd be happy to help you get your system running efficiently!

Dave

[vignesa]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Do you have any pictures of your denitrator?

I away from home right now. But will try to send you some pictures when I get back. I got the unit fabricated by Chris from American-aquarium.
There was a video on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPoM-AtN61A

Your Denitrator is 150L (almost 40gal) correct? why so large?

Why system volume is about 4000L. I have 2 8ft tanks plumbed to a sump. The main DT is 8x4x3

When you mention how much you dose...are you dosing 100% methanol?
Yes 100% pure methanol. I will dilute once I have the system dialed in and can get the apex to automate.

What is the size of your fish tank system?

4000L

What is the current Nitrate reading for your fish tank system?

50 - 100

Can you see the bacteria slime biomass growing in the denitrator?

I can see a bit growing on the walls and on the egg crates.

You can email me direct at drtpharmd99@aol.com I'd be happy to help you get your system running efficiently!

Dave

[vignesa]

Thanks to Dr T

Am now doing 2 flushes per 24 hours - so 1 every 12 hours with 25ml dose of pure methanol.

Now trying to reduce the amount of methanol for each flush to achieve the same effect.

[SPotter]

anyone interested in buying a naturereef denitrator set up? I have the large one with original dosing pump. Took my tank down and no longer need it. PM me if anyone is interested.

[Jimbo327]

Do any of you run these new roller filter mats in their sump with a Natureef style system? I'm afraid that these roller mats would filter out the bacteria and clog pretty quickly, and stinking up once the roller pulls it out of the water. I really want to go with the roller filter mats since I hate socks.

Anyone have any experience?

And are you guys running filter socks or go sockless? Or is the bacteria used up all in the skimmer and Display tank, that little gets back into the sump?

[DRThompson]

Hey Jimbo, sorry I missed your comment.
I have no experience with roller filter mats. I still run my methanol denitrater and occasionally run socks. Dont put the sock at the exit of the denitrater. I dont see why a roller mat would be a problem; preferably you would not want the denitrater to exit onto the roller mat. Best if it flushes near the protein skimmer. Whatever bacteria gets past the skimmer will disperse and be used in the tank.

[DRThompson]

I've been running a successful methanol denitrater for over a decade. Recently had to breakdown and startup my denitrater because we were tenting the house for termites and thought I would update this post on things i've learned.

Methanol -
The product nitragone is about 25% methanol IMO. I use pure methanol (M1 racing fuel) and cut it to 50% with RO water. I've found that >50% will damage the tubing over time. Also, at higher concentrations some of the methanol will evaporate while dosing. Methanol is an organic carbon like vinegar, vodka, nopox...etc The bacteria use organic carbons as a building blocks to make more bacteria. If you have a lot of excess organic matter in your system you may notice you dont have to feed as much methanol.

Bacteria -
Purple Non-sulfur bacteria PNSB is by far the best choice for a denitrater. The product I use is called PNS ProBIO. It can be found at hydrospace.store or algaebarn.com. I've seen similar products sold by BIOSUN.

Water Flow inside the chamber-
More flow is better. I've found a water flow pumps like MP40,MP10, Jebao Rw-15 or similar koralia work best. Place it low enough so it doesnt create an air vortex but gives good circulation. I run a Rw15 in pulse mode at highest speed. I get a little back/forth wave at the top but not much surface tension. If you dont have enough flow the methanol will not mix in the chamber and all the bacteria will just grow on the top water surface.

Egg Crate -
Dont put egg crate in the middle, just line the edges and bottom. (zipties work well) Anything in the middle will just block the flow of water and prevent the methanol from mixing when you dose.

Cycling -
Cycle only as often as needed to control nitrates. Usually, 1-3 times per day is fine. You can delay the methanol dose an hour or 2 after a flush to extend the cycle time. The bacteria will go into a hold/suspend state and wait for the methanol. I currently cycle once a day, dosing 5ml of 50% methanol in a 10gal chamber. This supports a 250gal system with 20 fish. My nitrates hold between 5-10 ppm on a salifert test kit. If you target too low for nitrates you'll upset the ratio of nitrates to phosphates and may end up with algae/cyano bloom.

Sulfur smell-
Bacteria preference = Iron>Nitrates>Sulfates. The Bacteria break the bonds and use it as energy (ie: NO3-->NO2-->NO--N2-gas) If you are getting the sulfur smell at the end of your cycle or while flushing, your bacteria ran out of nitrates and started using sulfates. You need to do one or more of the following: decrease methanol dose, run more cycles per day, delay methanol after chamber flush, or feed the chamber some nitrates to compensate. I use to feed nitrates about 2 hours before end of cycle. My experience the Purple Nonsulfur bacteria doesnt really go after the sulfates.

Phosphates -
IME the denitrater doesnt remove/eatup much in the way of phosphates. I still have to run GFO to control phosphates. Probably the only downside to a denitrater.

Refugium/Chaeto-
IME a denitrater and chaeto/macroalgae type refugium are not really compatible.

Misc-
an interal overflow box inside the chamber helps to keep the "chunky" biomass bacteria from flushing out.
The bacteria that grows on the sides of the chamber and in the egg crate is clear to tan and thick viscosity.
Dosing peroxide in your system will KILL the bacteria in the denitrater.
Try to flush the denitrater above the water line in the sump and near the skimmer.

If you've made it this far you are an amazing person!. I hope this has been helpful. feel free to email me direct drtpharmd99@aol if you need help starting up or troubleshooting your denitrater.

Dave

[erroldejesus]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

The amount of methanol you dose is proportional to the concentration of nitrates
and the size of the chamber.

My 200gal system uses a 12gal chamber. My nitrates are 2.5-5mg/L and I dose
1.5ml of methanol per cycle. I currently cycle it 3 times a day. (automated thru my apex)

Matt has a 700gal system and we are using a 30gal chamber. We haven't completed
the first cycle yet so a regular dosing amount is still TBD.

I'm using a formulation based on the reference literature I'm using as well as
my own experience. We've had to modify it a little but basically we are dosing
a 3:1 ratio of methanol to nitrates.

Basic formulation: 3grams of methanol to 1 gram of nitrate

Example:
30gal denitrater chamber; nitrates concentration is 25mg/L

(chamber size) 30gal X 4L/gal = 120Liters (aprox)
(Nitrate conc) 25mg/L X 120L = 3000mg or 3gm of Nitrates

Using the 3:1 ratio
3 X 3gm(nitrates) = 9gm methanol
Methanol specific gravity is about 0.8 so actual ml dose
9gm/0.8= 11.25 or about 11ml of pure methanol

This is the formula for maint dosing.

For start up, you will dose every couple days until you get it to cycle. We are still working on the 1st cycle. Tomorrow will be the 14 day mark. So far we have dosed 30ml of Pure methanol into the chamber. To be honest, I think we underestimated Matt's nitrates. Once you get over 25mg/L all the colors seem to blend to me . We will be dosing more aggressively to try to get to end of the first few cycles. Also, I've ordered a dissolved oxygen test kit to help find when the chamber goes anoxic (low oxygen) and starts to remove the nitrates.

Once we are cycling regularly (under 24 hours) then we will go back to the above formulation for maint dosing.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to post questions on the thread, I am happy to answer. This continues to be a learning experience for us as we are challenged with starting up a larger denitrater chamber.

Hiii. From PR. I try everything with my nitrates. I own a 75 gallons. What do you think will be the chamber? Thanks!!!

[erroldejesus]

Mrx66699 send you a pm

[erroldejesus]

Some member that have an video of the reactor in function? Flushing, etc?

[erroldejesus]

Updates?

[erroldejesus]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

I've been running a successful methanol denitrater for over a decade. Recently had to breakdown and startup my denitrater because we were tenting the house for termites and thought I would update this post on things i've learned.

Methanol -
The product nitragone is about 25% methanol IMO. I use pure methanol (M1 racing fuel) and cut it to 50% with RO water. I've found that >50% will damage the tubing over time. Also, at higher concentrations some of the methanol will evaporate while dosing. Methanol is an organic carbon like vinegar, vodka, nopox...etc The bacteria use organic carbons as a building blocks to make more bacteria. If you have a lot of excess organic matter in your system you may notice you dont have to feed as much methanol.

Bacteria -
Purple Non-sulfur bacteria PNSB is by far the best choice for a denitrater. The product I use is called PNS ProBIO. It can be found at hydrospace.store or algaebarn.com. I've seen similar products sold by BIOSUN.

Water Flow inside the chamber-
More flow is better. I've found a water flow pumps like MP40,MP10, Jebao Rw-15 or similar koralia work best. Place it low enough so it doesnt create an air vortex but gives good circulation. I run a Rw15 in pulse mode at highest speed. I get a little back/forth wave at the top but not much surface tension. If you dont have enough flow the methanol will not mix in the chamber and all the bacteria will just grow on the top water surface.

Egg Crate -
Dont put egg crate in the middle, just line the edges and bottom. (zipties work well) Anything in the middle will just block the flow of water and prevent the methanol from mixing when you dose.

Cycling -
Cycle only as often as needed to control nitrates. Usually, 1-3 times per day is fine. You can delay the methanol dose an hour or 2 after a flush to extend the cycle time. The bacteria will go into a hold/suspend state and wait for the methanol. I currently cycle once a day, dosing 5ml of 50% methanol in a 10gal chamber. This supports a 250gal system with 20 fish. My nitrates hold between 5-10 ppm on a salifert test kit. If you target too low for nitrates you'll upset the ratio of nitrates to phosphates and may end up with algae/cyano bloom.

Sulfur smell-
Bacteria preference = Iron>Nitrates>Sulfates. The Bacteria break the bonds and use it as energy (ie: NO3-->NO2-->NO--N2-gas) If you are getting the sulfur smell at the end of your cycle or while flushing, your bacteria ran out of nitrates and started using sulfates. You need to do one or more of the following: decrease methanol dose, run more cycles per day, delay methanol after chamber flush, or feed the chamber some nitrates to compensate. I use to feed nitrates about 2 hours before end of cycle. My experience the Purple Nonsulfur bacteria doesnt really go after the sulfates.

Phosphates -
IME the denitrater doesnt remove/eatup much in the way of phosphates. I still have to run GFO to control phosphates. Probably the only downside to a denitrater.

Refugium/Chaeto-
IME a denitrater and chaeto/macroalgae type refugium are not really compatible.

Misc-
an interal overflow box inside the chamber helps to keep the "chunky" biomass bacteria from flushing out.
The bacteria that grows on the sides of the chamber and in the egg crate is clear to tan and thick viscosity.
Dosing peroxide in your system will KILL the bacteria in the denitrater.
Try to flush the denitrater above the water line in the sump and near the skimmer.

If you've made it this far you are an amazing person!. I hope this has been helpful. feel free to email me direct drtpharmd99@aol if you need help starting up or troubleshooting your denitrater.

Dave

Hi Drthompson!!!
I tried to send you an email but I can’t send to drthpharmd99@aol :-(

[DRThompson]

Originally Posted by erroldejesus

Hi Drthompson!!!
I tried to send you an email but I can’t send to drthpharmd99@aol :-(

Please send to drtpharmd99@aol.com

[erroldejesus]

Hi everybody!!
I have some doubts but anybody answer me😔. Someone can email me ? My email is: erroldejesus@gmail.com.

[erroldejesus]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Please send to drtpharmd99@aol.com

Thanks

[erroldejesus]

Originally Posted by DRThompson

Please send to drtpharmd99@aol.com

Good morning!!!
Email send. Thanks

[Jimbo327]

Can someone post a picture of the overflow of their system? Is there really a need for an overflow? What is the exit hole size should be? Maybe we make it larger so no chance of clog.

And do you put egg crate on the bottom too?

Bacteria preference is: Iron>Nitrate>Sulfur or Nitrate>Iron>Sulfur? I think in 2 different posts you had each of those. I plan to dose iron citrate to precipitate phosphate.

And when you say that purple bacteria doesn't go after sulfate, does it mean we don't have to worry about the sulfur smell if it runs out of nitrates to eat?