New wavemaker- awesome!!! - Page 29

David P · 05/02/2004, 11:59 AM

thats what I heard but didnt believe it so I checked with the engineers who deal with fluid dynamics all the time at work...

H20ENG · 05/02/2004, 12:01 PM

DerekW,
You are correct. The only head in a closed loop is friction head.
The static head is 0'. If the pump was sucking faster than it could be supplied with water, it'd cavitate.
This is why you dont put a 3/4" suction on a closed loop pump...
HTH
Chris

H20ENG · 05/02/2004, 12:06 PM

DavidP,
I'd like to see those calcs. Got a link?
If the flow in the piping going down to the pump is flowing faster than gravity (which you should not run it faster than 4' /sec) then it STILL is only seeing friction head.
All piping and fittings must be included in this calculation, not just the discharge side.
Good discussion!
Chris

H20ENG · 05/02/2004, 12:06 PM

sorry to get off topic..

David P · 05/02/2004, 01:08 PM

I dont have a link, but I was thinking that if 28" of H2O= 1psi, even if the pump is 4' below the suction, the pump is pushing out water much greater than the 4 psi that would be falling into the pump, then the pump must be sucking the water down the hose. So if that is true then the water pressure couldnt be the same on both sides of the pump.

MadTownMax · 05/02/2004, 03:08 PM

Isn't this thread about a wavemaker

? You guys are really trying to split hairs here.... get a pump larger than what you need and then throttle it back with a gate valve so that it doesn't rip the tissue off of your corals....

-not trying to be harsh, it's just that I think you might try starting a new thread about closed loop head loss to have a more meaningful discussion of the subject

ronbis · 05/02/2004, 05:42 PM

I'm trying to use the head-loss calculator on my proposed setup. Would I just use 4 90's (one for the oceansmotions, one for the entrance to the bulkhead x2, since two ports will be active at once) and roughly 8 feet of vertical pipe (4 feet x 2 )? Does the oceansmotions valve have more loss than a single 90? I'm thinking about using the panworld 50xx pump, the LG 4mdqx-sc, or the velocity t4.

Then I'm guessing I take the result and divide it by two to get the flow per nozzle. I'm getting 400-500 gph per nozzle. Would this be too much coming out of a 3/4" nozzle? In my current 29 gallon I've got about 300 gph from a 3/4" and it could definitely be better...

H20ENG · 05/02/2004, 06:53 PM

I would guess that it is equal to a 90, since thats all it really is.

hammerhead · 05/02/2004, 07:17 PM

I should be getting my 4way next week. I can't wait to get it plumbed in.

MadTownMax · 05/02/2004, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ronbis
I'm trying to use the head-loss calculator on my proposed setup. Would I just use 4 90's (one for the oceansmotions, one for the entrance to the bulkhead x2, since two ports will be active at once) and roughly 8 feet of vertical pipe (4 feet x 2 )? Does the oceansmotions valve have more loss than a single 90?

The RC calculator includes an option for outputs, so yes, divide by two, you're dead-on on your calculations, FWIW HTH

ronbis · 05/02/2004, 07:53 PM

Hammerhead,

What pump are you going to be using on your 4-way?

hammerhead · 05/02/2004, 10:39 PM

I have a mag 9.5 and a mag 12. Im going to try the 12 first. I have mine plumbed to a chiller then it will go to the 4way so Im going to lose alot of flow.

ronbis · 05/03/2004, 01:13 PM

Just ordered my 4way! Still haven't decided on a pump. I've heard the velocity will transfer lots of heat, so I'll probably go with the LG. The ad on drsfostersmith.com says it's a new quieter design...
Does anyone know if the blueline/panworld pumps are less noisy than the LG's?
Just ran my setup by a couple of the fluids engineers I work with and they thought it sounded good. I may have to go SPS now with my newfound flow

Pinkskunk · 05/03/2004, 01:59 PM

please start a new thread on head lost and etc. I want more infor on this wavemaker products and pumps used so that i can make a mre informed decision. as of now, the the arguments about head lost though constructive and informative, but i want more infor on the wavemaker and pumps used.

David P · 05/03/2004, 08:12 PM

sorry....

I just ordered my HD 4way and will run an amp master 2700 on my new 120g.

Lunchbucket · 05/03/2004, 09:38 PM

got that tank in the apt. fresh water tested it for like 10min. the stand pipe wasn't working right so had to shut it down

got it all level and getting ready to go

testing the 4way in the next couple days

Lunchbucket

hammerhead · 05/03/2004, 10:28 PM

WOOHOOO post some pics Lunchbucket when u get that 4way in.

ronbis · 05/03/2004, 11:45 PM

Lunchbucket,

Anxious to hear what you think of the flow you're seeing, since my planned setup will be similar. I think I may go with the Panworld 100pxx for more flow. Did you split all your outlets into two with the "y" pieces?

Lunchbucket · 05/03/2004, 11:46 PM

will do! i have pics of the plumbing...just haven't experienced the awe of it running

Lunchbucket

Lunchbucket · 05/05/2004, 10:56 AM

ronbis - the panworld 100pxx is the same as the iwaki 55rlt right? opps it is like the md40x well the iwaki 55rlt i have compares to the 150PS (panworld) the iwaki is noisy but sure puts out some water!!!!!! i have never had a REAL external pump so this is a new sound. i heard the panworlds were more quiet

i used TWO of those 3-way 90's the back two outlets have them on it so they shoot 90degress apart. the front outlets (w/out the 3-ways) just shoot to the opposite corners of the tank. w/ them being right up close to the front glass i couldn't put them on there w/out having WIERD flow patterns (like one shooting lenghthwise across the front glass and the other shooting directly at the overflow)

Paul - all up and running and i got rid of the bubbles (well the big ones anyhow...need a big light on my tank to see if there are micro bubbles!!!) the cap on my inlet (hang on style) wasn't sealed good enough. retaped it and screwed it on TIGHT and NO MORE VENTURI.

this wavemaker is AWESOME!! i can't wait to see what hte corals are gonna do. and to see exactly what my flow patter will be like!!!

hope to update pics later this after noon!!

thanks Paul YOU ROCK!
Lunchbucket

Puffer Daddy · 05/05/2004, 11:42 AM

Lunch...

The Iwaki70 is par to the panworld 70...

So, I belive the Iwaki100 is the same as Panworld100

Lunchbucket · 05/05/2004, 03:12 PM

puffer daddy - might want to check you stats again man.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch..._Code=Panworld

on PA web site the panworld 200PS equals the iwaki 70r. you are looking at the BLUELINE numbers!!! panworld numbers are different (yet the pumps are the same as the bluelines just different numbering system).

so WHICH NUMBERING are you gonna USE?? panworld or blueline for you pump choice ronbis

Lunchbucket

ronbis · 05/05/2004, 08:48 PM

Lunchbucket, glad to hear you're liking the wavemaker! Hopefully I'll be getting mine soon. Too bad you're not in Rapid City, I could check out your setup. I'll be there this weekend for graduation at my alma mater (is that spelled right?) South Dakota Tech. Yeah, that's right, I used to be a SD reefer. Just going back to buy a couple of drinks for two of my buds who are graduating this year. Anyway, back to the subject at hand.

I'm looking at getting the blueline 40x HD now, or the panworld equivalent 100PXX. Although I'm toying with the idea of getting a little giant 4mdqx-sc. I've heard they're noisier, but some say not that much, and their ad says it's a "new quiter design". All these choices... Probably be happy with whatever I get. Just trying to get about 1000 gph from the pump, 500 gph per nozzle.

I think that will be about right coming out of a 3/4" nozzle. If not, I'll put a loc-line "T" on to divide the flow even further.

Lunchbucket · 05/05/2004, 10:27 PM

ronbis - cool cool SD reefers in the HIZ OUS!! LOL

i SHOULD have gone w/ the 100PXX...i bought a blueline 30 HD-X 1" MPT
1" MPT
13ft head max 1110gph....NOT ENOUGH IMO. this iwaki 55rlt is PERFECT!!

buy the PanWorld 150PS same as the iwaki i have. spend the extra cash...you will LOVE it.

w/ the circulation model you will see how much your output goes DOWN! plug it into the RC head loss calculator...i lost TOO MUCH w/ my blue line so i am gonna use the iwaki. heck later on i might add a 1.5" HOT inlet and wye it off to the iwaki and the blue line for even more UMPH. the blueline 30md would be a constant closed loop and the iwaki would be on the OM unit

Lunchbucket

s13silvia · 05/06/2004, 12:27 AM

is anyone running the 4 way with a AM3k? i'm looking to get rid of my scwd and getting this since i can get a more even flow throughout my entire tank. my current plumbing setup doesn't allow me to get enough flow on the right side of the tank, so i have dead spots there. i used the head loss calculator and estimating almost 10ft head loss i'll have 2108 gph flow and split that into 2 its about 1054 gph through each outlet at a time. you guys think thats a little too much or should i be fine. i don't want super strong jets of water since i have SPS in the tank...

05/02/2004, 11:59 AM	#701
David P Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, So Cal Posts: 3,288	thats what I heard but didnt believe it so I checked with the engineers who deal with fluid dynamics all the time at work... __________________ I don't have to be nice, Im being honest Current Tank Info: 120g bare bottom, 250w de in ROIII+, Amp Master closed loop through Oceans Motion, 60g fuge

05/02/2004, 01:08 PM	#705
David P Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, So Cal Posts: 3,288	I dont have a link, but I was thinking that if 28" of H2O= 1psi, even if the pump is 4' below the suction, the pump is pushing out water much greater than the 4 psi that would be falling into the pump, then the pump must be sucking the water down the hose. So if that is true then the water pressure couldnt be the same on both sides of the pump. __________________ I don't have to be nice, Im being honest Current Tank Info: 120g bare bottom, 250w de in ROIII+, Amp Master closed loop through Oceans Motion, 60g fuge

05/02/2004, 07:17 PM	#709
hammerhead Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Santa Clara,Ca Posts: 3,108	I should be getting my 4way next week. I can't wait to get it plumbed in. __________________ Michael PH 8.2 DKH 10 CAL 480 SG 1.025 Current Tank Info: New 95g cube being setup

05/02/2004, 10:39 PM	#712
hammerhead Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Santa Clara,Ca Posts: 3,108	I have a mag 9.5 and a mag 12. Im going to try the 12 first. I have mine plumbed to a chiller then it will go to the 4way so Im going to lose alot of flow. __________________ Michael PH 8.2 DKH 10 CAL 480 SG 1.025 Current Tank Info: New 95g cube being setup

05/03/2004, 08:12 PM	#715
David P Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Valencia, So Cal Posts: 3,288	sorry.... I just ordered my HD 4way and will run an amp master 2700 on my new 120g. __________________ I don't have to be nice, Im being honest Current Tank Info: 120g bare bottom, 250w de in ROIII+, Amp Master closed loop through Oceans Motion, 60g fuge

05/02/2004, 12:01 PM	#702
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	DerekW, You are correct. The only head in a closed loop is friction head. The static head is 0'. If the pump was sucking faster than it could be supplied with water, it'd cavitate. This is why you dont put a 3/4" suction on a closed loop pump... HTH Chris

05/02/2004, 12:06 PM	#703
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	DavidP, I'd like to see those calcs. Got a link? If the flow in the piping going down to the pump is flowing faster than gravity (which you should not run it faster than 4' /sec) then it STILL is only seeing friction head. All piping and fittings must be included in this calculation, not just the discharge side. Good discussion! Chris

05/02/2004, 12:06 PM	#704
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	sorry to get off topic..

05/02/2004, 03:08 PM	#706
MadTownMax ***erately knowledgable Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Appleton, WI Posts: 2,750 Blog Entries: 1	Isn't this thread about a wavemaker ? You guys are really trying to split hairs here.... get a pump larger than what you need and then throttle it back with a gate valve so that it doesn't rip the tissue off of your corals.... -not trying to be harsh, it's just that I think you might try starting a new thread about closed loop head loss to have a more meaningful discussion of the subject

05/02/2004, 05:42 PM	#707
ronbis Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado Posts: 222	I'm trying to use the head-loss calculator on my proposed setup. Would I just use 4 90's (one for the oceansmotions, one for the entrance to the bulkhead x2, since two ports will be active at once) and roughly 8 feet of vertical pipe (4 feet x 2 )? Does the oceansmotions valve have more loss than a single 90? I'm thinking about using the panworld 50xx pump, the LG 4mdqx-sc, or the velocity t4. Then I'm guessing I take the result and divide it by two to get the flow per nozzle. I'm getting 400-500 gph per nozzle. Would this be too much coming out of a 3/4" nozzle? In my current 29 gallon I've got about 300 gph from a 3/4" and it could definitely be better...

05/02/2004, 06:53 PM	#708
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	I would guess that it is equal to a 90, since thats all it really is.

05/02/2004, 07:53 PM	#711
ronbis Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado Posts: 222	Hammerhead, What pump are you going to be using on your 4-way?

05/03/2004, 01:13 PM	#713
ronbis Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado Posts: 222	Just ordered my 4way! Still haven't decided on a pump. I've heard the velocity will transfer lots of heat, so I'll probably go with the LG. The ad on drsfostersmith.com says it's a new quieter design... Does anyone know if the blueline/panworld pumps are less noisy than the LG's? Just ran my setup by a couple of the fluids engineers I work with and they thought it sounded good. I may have to go SPS now with my newfound flow

05/03/2004, 01:59 PM	#714
Pinkskunk Registered Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	please start a new thread on head lost and etc. I want more infor on this wavemaker products and pumps used so that i can make a mre informed decision. as of now, the the arguments about head lost though constructive and informative, but i want more infor on the wavemaker and pumps used.

05/03/2004, 09:38 PM	#716
Lunchbucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Brookings, SD Posts: 12,924	got that tank in the apt. fresh water tested it for like 10min. the stand pipe wasn't working right so had to shut it down got it all level and getting ready to go testing the 4way in the next couple days Lunchbucket __________________ Trying to lose weight by walking is like trying to bake a cake w/ a cigarette lighter - Lunchbucket - "Nancy-Boy Extraordinaire" - maxxII- Current Tank Info: 58gal Oceanic RR, 2x400w MH (20k XM and 10k XM), Deltec PF601 Ca Rx, Deltec AP701 skimmer, mag950 return, iwaki 55rlt w/ an Oceansmotions 4-way unit, Tunze 7300 and 6000 each w/ controller, fluidized po4 rx

05/03/2004, 10:28 PM	#717
hammerhead Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Santa Clara,Ca Posts: 3,108	WOOHOOO post some pics Lunchbucket when u get that 4way in. __________________ Michael PH 8.2 DKH 10 CAL 480 SG 1.025 Current Tank Info: New 95g cube being setup

05/03/2004, 11:45 PM	#718
ronbis Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado Posts: 222	Lunchbucket, Anxious to hear what you think of the flow you're seeing, since my planned setup will be similar. I think I may go with the Panworld 100pxx for more flow. Did you split all your outlets into two with the "y" pieces?

05/03/2004, 11:46 PM	#719
Lunchbucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Brookings, SD Posts: 12,924	will do! i have pics of the plumbing...just haven't experienced the awe of it running Lunchbucket __________________ Trying to lose weight by walking is like trying to bake a cake w/ a cigarette lighter - Lunchbucket - "Nancy-Boy Extraordinaire" - maxxII- Current Tank Info: 58gal Oceanic RR, 2x400w MH (20k XM and 10k XM), Deltec PF601 Ca Rx, Deltec AP701 skimmer, mag950 return, iwaki 55rlt w/ an Oceansmotions 4-way unit, Tunze 7300 and 6000 each w/ controller, fluidized po4 rx

05/05/2004, 10:56 AM	#720
Lunchbucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Brookings, SD Posts: 12,924	ronbis - the panworld 100pxx is the same as the iwaki 55rlt right? opps it is like the md40x well the iwaki 55rlt i have compares to the 150PS (panworld) the iwaki is noisy but sure puts out some water!!!!!! i have never had a REAL external pump so this is a new sound. i heard the panworlds were more quiet i used TWO of those 3-way 90's the back two outlets have them on it so they shoot 90degress apart. the front outlets (w/out the 3-ways) just shoot to the opposite corners of the tank. w/ them being right up close to the front glass i couldn't put them on there w/out having WIERD flow patterns (like one shooting lenghthwise across the front glass and the other shooting directly at the overflow) Paul - all up and running and i got rid of the bubbles (well the big ones anyhow...need a big light on my tank to see if there are micro bubbles!!!) the cap on my inlet (hang on style) wasn't sealed good enough. retaped it and screwed it on TIGHT and NO MORE VENTURI. this wavemaker is AWESOME!! i can't wait to see what hte corals are gonna do. and to see exactly what my flow patter will be like!!! hope to update pics later this after noon!! thanks Paul YOU ROCK! Lunchbucket __________________ Trying to lose weight by walking is like trying to bake a cake w/ a cigarette lighter - Lunchbucket - "Nancy-Boy Extraordinaire" - maxxII- Current Tank Info: 58gal Oceanic RR, 2x400w MH (20k XM and 10k XM), Deltec PF601 Ca Rx, Deltec AP701 skimmer, mag950 return, iwaki 55rlt w/ an Oceansmotions 4-way unit, Tunze 7300 and 6000 each w/ controller, fluidized po4 rx

05/05/2004, 11:42 AM	#721
Puffer Daddy Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sherman, Texas Posts: 1,117	Lunch... The Iwaki70 is par to the panworld 70... So, I belive the Iwaki100 is the same as Panworld100 __________________ There is unrest in the reef, There is trouble with the corals, for the lps want more sunlight And the sps ignore their pleas....The trouble with the LPS,(And they're quite convinced they're right) They say the SPS are just too lofty And they grab up all the light. But the SPS can't help their feelings If they like the way they're made. And they wonder why the LPS Can't be happy in their shade..So the LPS formed a union And demanded equal rights. "The SPS are just too greedy;We will make them give us light." Now there's no more SPS oppression, For they passed a noble law, And the Corals are all kept equal By Reefer.. frag.. and saw.

05/05/2004, 03:12 PM	#722
Lunchbucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Brookings, SD Posts: 12,924	puffer daddy - might want to check you stats again man. http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch..._Code=Panworld on PA web site the panworld 200PS equals the iwaki 70r. you are looking at the BLUELINE numbers!!! panworld numbers are different (yet the pumps are the same as the bluelines just different numbering system). so WHICH NUMBERING are you gonna USE?? panworld or blueline for you pump choice ronbis Lunchbucket __________________ Trying to lose weight by walking is like trying to bake a cake w/ a cigarette lighter - Lunchbucket - "Nancy-Boy Extraordinaire" - maxxII- Current Tank Info: 58gal Oceanic RR, 2x400w MH (20k XM and 10k XM), Deltec PF601 Ca Rx, Deltec AP701 skimmer, mag950 return, iwaki 55rlt w/ an Oceansmotions 4-way unit, Tunze 7300 and 6000 each w/ controller, fluidized po4 rx

05/05/2004, 08:48 PM	#723
ronbis Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado Posts: 222	Lunchbucket, glad to hear you're liking the wavemaker! Hopefully I'll be getting mine soon. Too bad you're not in Rapid City, I could check out your setup. I'll be there this weekend for graduation at my alma mater (is that spelled right?) South Dakota Tech. Yeah, that's right, I used to be a SD reefer. Just going back to buy a couple of drinks for two of my buds who are graduating this year. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I'm looking at getting the blueline 40x HD now, or the panworld equivalent 100PXX. Although I'm toying with the idea of getting a little giant 4mdqx-sc. I've heard they're noisier, but some say not that much, and their ad says it's a "new quiter design". All these choices... Probably be happy with whatever I get. Just trying to get about 1000 gph from the pump, 500 gph per nozzle. I think that will be about right coming out of a 3/4" nozzle. If not, I'll put a loc-line "T" on to divide the flow even further.

05/05/2004, 10:27 PM	#724
Lunchbucket Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Brookings, SD Posts: 12,924	ronbis - cool cool SD reefers in the HIZ OUS!! LOL i SHOULD have gone w/ the 100PXX...i bought a blueline 30 HD-X 1" MPT 1" MPT 13ft head max 1110gph....NOT ENOUGH IMO. this iwaki 55rlt is PERFECT!! buy the PanWorld 150PS same as the iwaki i have. spend the extra cash...you will LOVE it. w/ the circulation model you will see how much your output goes DOWN! plug it into the RC head loss calculator...i lost TOO MUCH w/ my blue line so i am gonna use the iwaki. heck later on i might add a 1.5" HOT inlet and wye it off to the iwaki and the blue line for even more UMPH. the blueline 30md would be a constant closed loop and the iwaki would be on the OM unit Lunchbucket __________________ Trying to lose weight by walking is like trying to bake a cake w/ a cigarette lighter - Lunchbucket - "Nancy-Boy Extraordinaire" - maxxII- Current Tank Info: 58gal Oceanic RR, 2x400w MH (20k XM and 10k XM), Deltec PF601 Ca Rx, Deltec AP701 skimmer, mag950 return, iwaki 55rlt w/ an Oceansmotions 4-way unit, Tunze 7300 and 6000 each w/ controller, fluidized po4 rx

05/06/2004, 12:27 AM	#725
s13silvia Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,744	is anyone running the 4 way with a AM3k? i'm looking to get rid of my scwd and getting this since i can get a more even flow throughout my entire tank. my current plumbing setup doesn't allow me to get enough flow on the right side of the tank, so i have dead spots there. i used the head loss calculator and estimating almost 10ft head loss i'll have 2108 gph flow and split that into 2 its about 1054 gph through each outlet at a time. you guys think thats a little too much or should i be fine. i don't want super strong jets of water since i have SPS in the tank... __________________ Nam Current Tank Info: 30g Oceanic Cube, AquaC Remora skimmer, Aqua Medic Ocean Light 150w, Pan-World 50pxx, JBJ 1/5hp Artica Chiller