Novices need LED lighting questions answered.

[Ron Reefman]

rfurst, I'm not looking to start an argument here. And your list of things to consider is pretty inclusive, some of your points are very well taken. Some are really almost unimportant, but that's just my opinion. But the very first one on your list is confusing.

I know full well what PUR is and how it's different than PAR. And I'll even agree that PUR is more important. However, how do you know what the PUR is for any given coral? They all have different kinds of zooxanthellae and therefore have different light requirements (or PUR). And then just what tool do you use to measure PUR? I've never seen a PUR meter. So if you can't really identify the PUR for a given coral, and there is no tool or meter to measure PUR, why make life so confusing? It's an important concept to understand, but if I don't know what the PUR is and I can't measure it, it really should just be a footnote.

We know the 400nm to 500nm wavelengths are the most important for most coral's zooxanthellae. Isn't that enough understanding about PUR? And you are right about PAR meters reading all light (not necessarily equally as blue is somewhat under read). But at least there is a meter that can give you a number to work with. So why would you say it is of limited value? To my way of thinking, it's better than the value of the non-existent number you get from the non-existent PUR meter.

Again, I agree with you that PUR, if it were something we could know and measure, would be much more useful. But we can't, so why confuse people who are just getting started. You make it the number one thing to consider, yet nobody lists any PUR numbers for their fixtures, or for any corals you buy. So how is that the most important criteria?

[rfurst]

hey Ron, no worries about starting an argument. We are just sharing different perspectives and frankly, I don't mind arguments in any event so long as they are civil and grounded in fact. Beyond which, being challanged (respectfully of course) is how I learn and I think the back and forth is helpful to the larger community.

Yes, I agree, some of the things on my list are of little importance which is why I prefaced the list by stating “some of which matter to coral health and appearance, some are just a personal preference of the hobbiest, and some are of little use or are actually unhelpful and misleading.” My goal was to represent all of the factors that not only I think are important but that I often see being considered. I did not attempt to rank them, other than #1.

My contention is that even though PUR in not something that we can directly measure, even though each coral has a slightly different PUR requirement, even though no manufacturer list the PUR of their lights, even though it can be difficult thing to understand, it still is the thing that matters most since it is one thingabout our lights that most directly affects the health of our coral. Ya, maybe its a bit nuanced but that is why I summed up my point by saying, “The point here is that what matters is what specific frequencies of light are produced.” *

I think you are suggesting that, notwithstanding its importance, since we cant measure it, it's a moot point. I am suggesting that even though we can't directly measure it, lets understand and focus on the things that are the basis of PUR... the light frequency created by the fixture.

So maybe there is another way of getting at my point without using PUR directly. As you noted, we do know that coral responds best to ligh wavelengths of about 400nm – 500nm and 630nm -700nm. Different literature sources provide different ranges so I give these numbers as reasonable approximations. These cover the blue, indigo, violet colors on one end of the spectrum and red on the other. For those of you that really want to understand why... it has to do with the absorbtion bandwith of chlorophyll which the zooxanthellae use for photosynthis. We also know that the green, yellow, orange light in the middle of this range have little to no value to coral (even though the human eye tends to see green -yellow the best).

The number one most important thing to consider then is how well the light spectrum delivered by the fixture corresponds the the light spectrum required for coral health. I think this is a very important issue for hobbiests to understand since this issue is one of the differentiators between vendors. Cheaper fixtures, the “black box” variety, tend to produce a full spectrum of light much of which is uneccessary for your coral. This is why you see so many people buying these lights and then changing the emitters to replace undesirable ones for better ones. Higher-end lights tend to do a better job of targeting the output spectrum to the specific needs of coral. That said, you still find green emitters in higher end lights which isn't entirely bad since it does contribute to what we humans interpret as brightness, but your coral doesn' care much.

Bottom line, regardless of what fixtures you are comparing, compare the spectrum of light the fixture produces with what sectrum of light your corals find useful and choose the fixture where these two are most aligned.

Ill share my anti PAR bias in my next post,betyi all can't wait...teehehe

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by rfurst

hey Ron, no worries about starting an argument. We are just sharing different perspectives and frankly, I don't mind arguments in any event so long as they are civil and grounded in fact.

Glad to hear it and I always try to keep it civil.

Beyond which, being challanged (respectfully of course) is how I learn and I think the back and forth is helpful to the larger community.

I couldn't agree more!

Yes, I agree, some of the things on my list are of little importance which is why I prefaced the list by stating “some of which matter to coral health and appearance, some are just a personal preference of the hobbiest, and some are of little use or are actually unhelpful and misleading.” My goal was to represent all of the factors that not only I think are important but that I often see being considered. I did not attempt to rank them, other than #1.

OK, that makes sense.

My contention is that even though PUR in not something that we can directly measure, even though each coral has a slightly different PUR requirement, even though no manufacturer list the PUR of their lights, even though it can be difficult thing to understand, it still is the thing that matters most since it is one thingabout our lights that most directly affects the health of our coral. Ya, maybe its a bit nuanced but that is why I summed up my point by saying, “The point here is that what matters is what specific frequencies of light are produced.” *

Except that whether they are cheap or high end, most led fixtures don't offer a spectrum breakdown of their fixtures. And even if some emit wavelengths that really aren't helpful, are they harmful? My best guess is not very if at all, so it's really not a big issue.

I think you are suggesting that, notwithstanding its importance, since we cant measure it, it's a moot point.

Not at all! I think PUR is quite important to understand. But I am saying that I don't think it needs to be considered in buying any of the current led fixtures available in the trade. Most fixtures use quality leds that are powerful enough (like 3 watts or more). And there really isn't enough difference in any of them to make it worth worrying about in your purchase decision. I don't care who makes the 460nm led, Cree, Bridgelux, Epistar... whoever. Or for that matter the bin number of the led. I want an led that is putting out light in and around the wavelength of 460nm. Whether it has a spread from 455nm to 465nm ot a spread from 440nm to 480nm isn't really going to make any difference to my corals. And how many 460nm leds are over my tank? Are there any variations in them? I assume they are all a bit different and I think that is a good thing.

I am suggesting that even though we can't directly measure it, lets understand and focus on the things that are the basis of PUR... the light frequency created by the fixture.

The only thing you really have to judge the light emitted by a fixture is by the stated wavelengths of the leds. And there just isn't that much difference between the MarsAqua ($90) and the EcoTech Radion ($750). I think if you are really concerned about the total output of your fixture, the important difference is that the inexpensive fixtures have 2 channels, blue vs white (with a couple reds and greens) and higher end fixtures (now even the ReefBreeders Photon V-2) that have multiple channels so you can control each color individually. And it's cool if you really think it makes a difference. But I've had EcoTech Radions and inexpensive Chinese boxes and I don't see enough difference to pay the $650 price difference.

So maybe there is another way of getting at my point without using PUR directly. As you noted, we do know that coral responds best to ligh wavelengths of about 400nm – 500nm and 630nm -700nm. Different literature sources provide different ranges so I give these numbers as reasonable approximations. These cover the blue, indigo, violet colors on one end of the spectrum and red on the other. For those of you that really want to understand why... it has to do with the absorbtion bandwith of chlorophyll which the zooxanthellae use for photosynthis. We also know that the green, yellow, orange light in the middle of this range have little to no value to coral (even though the human eye tends to see green -yellow the best).

No, I don't know that these wavelengths are of "little or no value" to the corals. I'll agree they have little or nothing to do with photosynthesis. But they may, and probably are important to the corals production of color pigments which protect the coral and make them colorful to our eyes. It isn't all about zooxanthellae and photosynthesis.

The number one most important thing to consider then is how well the light spectrum delivered by the fixture corresponds the the light spectrum required for coral health. I think this is a very important issue for hobbiests to understand since this issue is one of the differentiators between vendors. Cheaper fixtures, the “black box” variety, tend to produce a full spectrum of light much of which is uneccessary for your coral. This is why you see so many people buying these lights and then changing the emitters to replace undesirable ones for better ones. Higher-end lights tend to do a better job of targeting the output spectrum to the specific needs of coral. That said, you still find green emitters in higher end lights which isn't entirely bad since it does contribute to what we humans interpret as brightness, but your coral doesn't care much.

Just a comment. First you say that cheaper black boxes produce full spectrum... much of which is unnecessary and a couple of sentences later you say higher end fixtures do a better job of targeting output... you still find green emitter in higher end lights. I disagree about the inexpensive fixtures being wrong by doing 'full spectrum' and agree that both the inexpensive and the expensive fixture manufacturers all do it. They just really aren't that different.

Bottom line, regardless of what fixtures you are comparing, compare the spectrum of light the fixture produces with what sectrum of light your corals find useful and choose the fixture where these two are most aligned.

I have used both $750 EcoTech Radions and $150 EverGrow (OceanRevive and ReefBreeders) fixtures. Other than one having individual channels for each color led and the other having 2 channels of control, blue and white, there just isn't that much difference. You can make the Radion look different to our eyes by dropping out some of the unnecessary wavelengths for photosynthesis, but that may be dropping wavelengths useful to coral pigment production. But as far as coral health and coral growth, I just don't see anywhere near enough difference to justify the huge cost difference.

That way more than just my 2 cents worth, but I think the discussion is well worth our time.

[rfurst]

Ron, thanks for your comments, hopefully our dialogue helps newcomers understand some of the things to consider when evaluating LEDs and that there is a range of legitimate opinion and perspective even when looking at the science.

Regards

[theatrus]

One factor to consider between different lights is the overall build quality, safety, design for longevity and sourcing of components.

The Chinese Black Box fixtures have one theme: low cost. The drivers probably are not UL listed (or would fail any testing). They're going to be made from cheap parts throughout. The emitters are not top-shelf (or knockoff fake-branded top shelf). The cooling design is going to be marginal. The support is generally someone shipping you parts from China.

Are the EcoTech fixtures filled with $600 more of good quality components? No (in fact their power supplies are also meh, but at least UL/CSA listed). However, you can have more assurances that the engineering and sourcing is done with more care. It will probably last its rated lifetime. EcoTech has a reputation to uphold, and isn't the eBay seller of the month with a "NEW 2016" product (which is the same as the 2015, 2014, ... etc).

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by theatrus

One factor to consider between different lights is the overall build quality, safety, design for longevity and sourcing of components.

The Chinese Black Box fixtures have one theme: low cost. The drivers probably are not UL listed (or would fail any testing). They're going to be made from cheap parts throughout. The emitters are not top-shelf (or knockoff fake-branded top shelf). The cooling design is going to be marginal. The support is generally someone shipping you parts from China.

Are the EcoTech fixtures filled with $600 more of good quality components? No (in fact their power supplies are also meh, but at least UL/CSA listed). However, you can have more assurances that the engineering and sourcing is done with more care. It will probably last its rated lifetime. EcoTech has a reputation to uphold, and isn't the eBay seller of the month with a "NEW 2016" product (which is the same as the 2015, 2014, ... etc).

Just how much experience do you have with Chinese made fixtures? Based on your comments, I'd say not much. You made a lot of bad assumptions about fixtures made in China.

Yes there WERE and still ARE some bad actors selling some crappy fixtures, TaoTronics, DSuny and others. But then you don't hear their names mentioned very often anymore, do you? Now it's Maxspect, EverGrow, ReefBreeders, OceanRevive and ReefRadiance. More recently MarsAqua has made a big splash in the shallow end of the pool (ultra low cost). And what buyer would expect the same kind of quality from an $86 MarsAqua led fixture that they would from a $750 EcoTech Radion fixture. Let's be serious.

Having 4 tanks and 2 refugiums with led fixtures from EverGrow, ReefBreeders, OceanRevive and EcoTech (all for over 3 years), I'll tell you that in my personal experience there isn't enough difference between the fixtures made in China by EverGrow (they make RB and OR as well) and EcoTech to justify $50 as far as build quality. In fact the EG made fixtures all run cooler than the EcoTech fixtures. As far as my corals are concerned, they are all equally healthy and all grow equally as well. Getting help from EG in China is a bit of a pain, but they do work with you. RB and OR, both based in the USA, do customer service pretty well, RB probably even better than ET.

If I were looking for a quality led fixture with bells and whistles like sunrise & sunset, or individual channel control of every color led in the fixture, I'd buy a ReefBreeders Photon 16 V-2 for less than half of what an EcoTech Radion cost and not give it a second thought.

[theatrus]

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

Just how much experience do you have with Chinese made fixtures? Based on your comments, I'd say not much. You made a lot of bad assumptions about fixtures made in China.



Yes there WERE and still ARE some bad actors selling some crappy fixtures, TaoTronics, DSuny and others. But then you don't hear their names mentioned very often anymore, do you? Now it's Maxspect, EverGrow, ReefBreeders, OceanRevive and ReefRadiance. More recently MarsAqua has made a big splash in the shallow end of the pool (ultra low cost). And what buyer would expect the same kind of quality from an $86 MarsAqua led fixture that they would from a $750 EcoTech Radion fixture. Let's be serious.



Having 4 tanks and 2 refugiums with led fixtures from EverGrow, ReefBreeders, OceanRevive and EcoTech (all for over 3 years), I'll tell you that in my personal experience there isn't enough difference between the fixtures made in China by EverGrow (they make RB and OR as well) and EcoTech to justify $50 as far as build quality. In fact the EG made fixtures all run cooler than the EcoTech fixtures. As far as my corals are concerned, they are all equally healthy and all grow equally as well. Getting help from EG in China is a bit of a pain, but they do work with you. RB and OR, both based in the USA, do customer service pretty well, RB probably even better than ET.



If I were looking for a quality led fixture with bells and whistles like sunrise & sunset, or individual channel control of every color led in the fixture, I'd buy a ReefBreeders Photon 16 V-2 for less than half of what an EcoTech Radion cost and not give it a second thought.

I've had a few of the direct imports open, usually in a broken state. Combined with about 8 years experience in hardware and firmware design, including domestic and offshore manufacturing.

There are many reasons the Chinese fixtures cost so little (and cost even less if you were to buy them in RMB on the mainland), and it's not because all the US manufacturers are taking a 500% GM markup. They are designed down to a price, and to do that you cut every corner you can inside (everything from capacitors, heat sinks, fans, thermal design, wire interconnects, semiconductors in use, QA and binning, actually getting the components you specced, critical safety features - none of the Chinese fixtures I saw had any temperature cut outs or even sensing, the list goes on).

Every market has products differentiated by price points: cars, laptops, TVs, blenders, etc etc. Does the VitaMix really justify its several hundred dollar markup on the Hamilton Beach? The VitaMix will last forever and isn't designed down to a price. Both will blend your margarita out of the box. How well will both do it after 5 years of margaritas?

Seeing a lot of cheap Chinese products over the years, I make it a point to not plug anything into the mains outlet that hasn't been tested by UL, CSA or TUV. I've carried products through UL certification, and I know what it entails and value it does add to keep people safe. Neither of the prior fixtures that came my way had that. RB doesn't advertise it for the new Photons either.

I think ReefBreeders is on the right track: no longer just direct imports, but using EverGrow or another manufacturer as an ODM for different specced products. Hopefully they can exert enough control to make it work for them, and have some feet on the ground in the mainland on their payroll to enforce it. Inevitably this costs more, so as quality rises so will the cost.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by theatrus

I think ReefBreeders is on the right track: no longer just direct imports, but using EverGrow or another manufacturer as an ODM for different specced products. Hopefully they can exert enough control to make it work for them, and have some feet on the ground in the mainland on their payroll to enforce it. Inevitably this costs more, so as quality rises so will the cost.

I think you give ReefBreeders too much credit. Their Photon fixtures, even the V-2 fixtures, are just EverGrow standard fixtures with a different assortment of leds. There is nothing else different about them. And I'm not here to argue about Chinese vs US quality, that's not what this thread was intended to do. You may continue if you like, but I'm done.

[rfurst]

Ron, I think it is fair that Theartus brings up the point that there is a quality difference between fixtures. Quality of build is a reasonable criterion that someone might use to differentiate which fixture they use. It also seems reasonable to suggest that a $100 fixture is of different quality that a $400 fixture. The point of this thread is to discuss issues that a novice might want to consider or understand and the fact that there are differences in build quality is one of those things.

My reading of your perspective is that regardless of build quality, both cheap and expensive fixtures work equally well for coral health. That's a fair point as well. Both you and Theatrus have experience and insight that bring value to the community, both are making valid points and are simply demonstrating that we all value different things when making our choice of lights.

[Ron Reefman]

Originally Posted by rfurst

Ron, I think it is fair that Theartus brings up the point that there is a quality difference between fixtures. Quality of build is a reasonable criterion that someone might use to differentiate which fixture they use.

I agree completely that build quality and differences between builders is important. What I was trying to get at is the fact that Theartus didn't specify a specific brand of manufacturer as being low quality. He went after Chinese made products as a group. I think that's unfair as some Chinese product is getting to be pretty good quality. I've seen some significant improvements in some Chinese fixtures just over the past 5 years. Better fans, better stainless hardware, aluminum cases rather than steel, powder coating rather than paint, real heatsinks rather than a simple sheet of aluminum and now EverGrow has gone to Cree and Osram leds with their latest fixture.

[rfurst]

Ron, It is a good point that you bring up.... that build quality can't simply be differentiated by country of origin. This is helpful for newcommers since it is very common for the larger community to treat all Chinese / Black Box /ebay fixtures the same and I have probably been giulty of that myself at some point.

It does seem that the Chinese-made export market is pretty confusing given the number of brands that seemingly use the same basic fixture. I suppose what would really be helpful for all of us is if someone (probably someone smarter than me) could map out the Chinese made fixtures to show the brand relationships between them all. That is, if Evergrow is a manufacturer that many others use and rebrand, it might be helpful to have that list of brands that are all pretty much identical. If a brand, say Reefbreeders, starts with an Evergrow and modifies it in some way to differentiate it from others, it would be helpful to know what changes they made.

[Sully72]

This is great information. Thank you!

[Ron Reefman]

Well, I'm not an expert at the Chinese market either. But I know a bit about how some of it works. Even some of the big builders like EverGrow don't 'make' a lot of the components that go into their fixtures. For example, they go to a different supplier to have the cases stamped out. If you have a unique case and don't allow the company making them sell the same case to other companies building fixtures, it means they do smaller runs and the costs go up. If you allow the case to be used by others, like the original case (commonly called Chinese bricks or black boxes) that almost every inexpensive to cheap builder used when led fixtures first started showing up in the US, the cost of the case goes way down. The same can be said about heat sinks, drivers, controllers, dimmers, timers, remote controls, hanging kits and even fixture legs.

Because of that, some components that make fixtures look the same, i.e. MarsAqua, the original EverGrow basic fixture, ToaTronics and many others may all look the same. But if you want a quality product you use quality heat sinks, quality fans, quality stainless steel, etc. If you want a cheap fixture you get the lower quality parts for less and your fixture costs less. Low cost very often drives volume sales and lowers costs and end user prices even more.

But the market is maturing and some builders can make inexpensive fixtures with unique cases and other unique supplies and do a big enough volume to demand lower costs (like WalMart does). Therefore they sell better fixtures at what are still reasonable prices. Especially if you can design something that is more upscale like the new EverGrow and ReefBreeders fixtures with Cree and Osram leds and 6 channel controllers. Or even the more basic fixtures like OceanRevive who added a simple timer and have a unique case design. They had them made with aluminum and powder coated them while everybody else was using steel (rust) and still painting them (less durable). EverGrow still did the assembly, but others like EG and RB couldn't copy them because the parts were made just for OR products and EG was willing to work with them.

But some companies are still in the 'build it cheap and sell them at rock bottom prices' to attract the low end of the market and grow their business. It's the least expensive way to gain a name and a bigger share of the market for a start up company. And after all, a lot of us like to save buck when we can.

[Sk8r]

Someone said we had a dead link on the chart: here's another, re corals and depth. Eu would be euphyllias, po would be pocillipora, st stylophora,etc --- I think! http://www.aquaticlog.com/radion

[SFish]

So I've been wondering if the Hydra 52 HD is a better option then the Radion (not looking at the pro version). Don't know much about LEDs but I've been thinking about going with the Radion or the Hydra. Not sure what advantage having two extra pucks would give you. Also the cooling fan facing up vs down.

[Stagrindin757]

Nice

[Stagrindin757]

Noce

[p7willm]

One thing about LEDs I have not seen discussed is shimmer. If the LEDs are spread out evenly you get a flat light with no shimmer. To me it looks like a picture of a reef (saw this somewhere else, probably marketing, but is true for me)

On a real reef there is general light from all over the sky along with a strong bit from that spot in the sky. The general light gets into all the shadows and lets you see but the light from the point is bent as it goes through the always rough surface and you get those lovely, to me, moving lines of brightness. Even worse, to my eye, is a fixture with the occasional colored led that gives several overlapping shimmers in different colors.

I have a little EVO tank with LEDs spread out through the fixture and it gives a flat even illumination. The corals live and the fish swim but when you look at it something is wrong.

I also have a bigger tank with Kessil and it shimmers.

After spendig thousands on all the equipment and life the extra cost to make it move is really worth it. For me.

[drakedeming]

I am currently researching lighting for a 10 gallon standard nano that will have some corals(sofites and LPS, maybe SPS in the future). All I am finding are clip on light solutions. I need to have a hood/top on the tank due to cats and would like to be able to mount an LED inside of the hood.

Any ideas on where to look? DIY solutions for this?

Thanks.

[theatrus]

Originally Posted by drakedeming

I am currently researching lighting for a 10 gallon standard nano that will have some corals(sofites and LPS, maybe SPS in the future). All I am finding are clip on light solutions. I need to have a hood/top on the tank due to cats and would like to be able to mount an LED inside of the hood.

Any ideas on where to look? DIY solutions for this?

Thanks.

There are a few outfits that sell retrofits for biocubes and the like, you might start there. Its likely mostly DIY.

[drakedeming]

Originally Posted by theatrus

There are a few outfits that sell retrofits for biocubes and the like, you might start there. Its likely mostly DIY.

The more I am ready the more I am seeing I should go without a lid anyways.

Thanks though, I'll check it out and read.

[xgjgyj]

Good thread to start as there is a learning curve with led's that alot of people dont know about. They are not just a plug and play setup like t5's, pc's, and mh's were.

[John2755]

I just got the kessil a360w and I love it. If you're wanting ease of use go with kessil. A spectral controller will be in my near future without a doubt

[ComforablyNumb]

Hard to beat the Kessils, no doubt.

Pic of birdsnest when I first got it:


Same one 7 months later:



SPS frag when I first got it:


Same frag (plus two others) 7 months later under just Kessils:


And there is nothing like the Kessil shimmer!


Cheers.

[karyze]

Thanks for starting this! Comes at a perfect time for me, as I'm about to get my 75g box of air back wet again and full of reef. I need to refurbish the hood, and had MH + actinics, but am considering LEDs. Looking forward to learning more from others' experience.