kalk stirrer/reactor- any preference on brand? - Page 3

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seagirl
heres one thing i don't understand. if i mix my container full, i know exactly how much water i have and can add whatever ratio of kalk powder i want to it. but if i have a reactor, won't all the water passing thru be fully saturated? If a gallon of water can hold 2 tsp of kalk, but my tank only needs one per gallon, how do you accomplish that with a reactor?

With the reactor, you can adjust by how long/often it mixes, but you may not get as consistent results.

seagirl · 07/12/2007, 12:17 PM

oh, that makes sense. i'm with you, i see nothing wrong with this set up, except that i need to get a dosing pump.

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 01:59 PM

How are you controlling the topoff? An Aqualifter works great and is ~ $12.

8BALL_99 · 07/12/2007, 02:01 PM

You will probably end up needing More Kalk then even a saturated top off can provide.. I dose Kalk, and 2 part.. I guess it would depend a little on your evap compared to how stocked your tank is.. But really everyone I know uses Kalk and doses or they have both Kalk and CA reactors.. Thats what I do on my 180..

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 02:06 PM

I'm only using 1 teaspoon/gallon to maintain 420/9.6 ca/alk. I have mostly LPS, some SPS and softies. I'll be adding more SPS so my demand will rise. Once I get to where 2 teaspoons isn't enough. I'll start using 2 part. But yeah, Kalk cant usually keep up with a heavy SPS tank.

hahnmeister · 07/12/2007, 02:07 PM

Yeah, I know of a guy east of Madison here (Kevin Stack) whose tank is soooo packed with SPS (its one of those tanks where he has colonies with tips so large that the tips are a colony for most) that he has to use a Ca Reactor, and a 2-part dosing system to keep up.

seagirl · 07/12/2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sjm817
How are you controlling the topoff? An Aqualifter works great and is ~ $12.

i controll my top of with an ATO from this place

http://www.oceanussystems.com/index.html

float sensor in sump turn on ato pump. is this the pump you are talking about-

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewIt...product=OE1137

i have no sps in my tank, and will probably only get a few ever, so kalk should be enough for me. i just really need the ph help, i can't get above 7.8

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 02:37 PM

Yes. Thats the pump.

seagirl · 07/12/2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sjm817
Yes. Thats the pump.

thats great, i thought i needed a peristaltic pump. this is a lot cheaper. thanks!

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 03:11 PM

The Aqualifter has it limitations. It wont pump to a tall height. I have to go 5' so I have 2 back to back. You also dont want the topoff higher than the ump, or it will siphon when the pump is off. Great little pump though.

seagirl · 07/12/2007, 03:20 PM

how do you get the pump higher than the sump? i know it will back siphon, so i planned to have the hose going to the sump above the water line to prevent that.

seagirl · 07/12/2007, 03:21 PM

hey, you just hit 10000 posts!!

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seagirl
hey, you just hit 10000 posts!!

That is scary. Man, I spend WAY too much time here!

As long as the top of the output hose is higher than the top of the water level of the topoff container, it wont siphon (not the same issue as a back siphon). The pump doesn't have to be up high.

Matt Rise · 07/12/2007, 08:31 PM

You can see my Kalk container to the left. It's a simple trash can from Wal Mart with a flip top lid. I bought a small plastic valve at Lowes, and some 1/8" tubing. The valve is glued in with some epoxy, about an inch off the bottom so the sediment settles to the bottom and doesn't get picked up by the drain. I let the top off water drip into the sump. I have it down to about one drop per second now, seems to do a nice job. Cheap too!

jmait769 · 07/12/2007, 08:47 PM

sjm817 â€“ Congrats on over 10,000 posts. I have learned a lot from your posts.

I know you decided on the mixing tank but here is my top-off system consisting of a Tunze Osmolator, a ReefTek Kalk Stirrer and a homemade water reservoir you can see in front of the sump. AC Jr. controls the mixing times.

I add one 16 oz container of Mrs. Wages pickling lime about every two months. My calcium stays between 400 and 425 but I do have to add Randyâ€™s part 2 once in awhile to bring the ALK up. I tried the mixing container but like this system better.

Good luck!

Jay

Fishbulb2 · 07/12/2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Passive kalk reactors dotn work as well. They tend to let the kalk sit and rot, simply forming into calcium carbonate which is useless. The mixing serves a purpose because calcium will precipitate out on its own if not stirred. Bottom line... it might help a little, but its not effective.

Depending on the water throughput of the reactor, it is possible to have a passive design. They are popular in Asia. They dont work so well with dosing pumps or direct RO connections, but if you have an ATO with a pump that does 100-200gph bursts, you can use tall and narrow body... And I mean TALL and NARROW. Really, what you are doing is trying to match the cross sectional flow of a 6" kalk reactor with a 200-300gph mixing pump with that of a system that is only mixed by the feed pump.... that means 1-2" diameter at most...

I don't agree with any of this. Chemicals don't really rot. The calcium could be precipitating but it would only do so as calcium carbonate from CO2 being introduced. The reactor is completely closed off to outside air and can only get CO2 from the DI water feeding it. That would be the same DI water that feeds any kalk reactor. So it can't possibly precipitate out any more calcium than any other reactor. I'm also quite certain it's saturated. The pH and Ca levels are pretty much off of my test kits. Does any know what ppm saturated kalk should yield? I think Randy had also stated in the past in the chem forum that these passive reactors work just as well powered reactors as long as you don't allow top off water to bypass the kalk through channeling. I built this reactor to replace a maxi-jet driven reactor and i'm very glad I did. I got tired of replacing maxi-jet impellers.
FB

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmait769
sjm817 â€“ Congrats on over 10,000 posts. I have learned a lot from your posts.

I know you decided on the mixing tank but here is my top-off system consisting of a Tunze Osmolator, a ReefTek Kalk Stirrer and a homemade water reservoir you can see in front of the sump. AC Jr. controls the mixing times.

I add one 16 oz container of Mrs. Wages pickling lime about every two months. My calcium stays between 400 and 425 but I do have to add Randyâ€™s part 2 once in awhile to bring the ALK up. I tried the mixing container but like this system better.

Good luck!

Jay

Very nice setup. I'm checking out that quad U Tube overflow!

Fishbulb2 · 07/12/2007, 09:41 PM

Well, I tested the output of my kalk reactor and it was 1080 ppm Ca according to my kit. My tank was about 500ppm so it is possible that the kit is reading a little high but never the less, I think the reactor us working well.
FB

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 09:50 PM

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

Limewater that is saturated with calcium hydroxide has a pH of 12.54 at 25ÂºC. It is actually recognized as a secondary pH standard. The pH is substantially higher at lower temperature (12.627 at 20ÂºC and 13.00 at 10ÂºC), and lower at higher temperature (12.289 at 30ÂºC; 11.984 at 40ÂºC). Saturated limewater has a conductivity of about 10.3 mS/cm at 25ÂºC, and contains about 808 ppm of calcium and 40.8 meq/l of alkalinity. Slightly more calcium and alkalinity dissolve at lower temperatures, and less at higher temperatures. Of interest to chemists, a large fraction of the calcium in saturated limewater is present as the ion CaOH+, with the remainder being Ca++. The CaOH+ will instantly dissociate into Ca++ and OH- upon its addition to aquarium water.

Fishbulb2 · 07/12/2007, 10:07 PM

Thanks sjm,
Looks like my Ca kit is reading quite high. I wonder if the high pH might be interfering with the results. Not sure.

petedoc · 07/12/2007, 10:23 PM

Great thread! I am using a RO/DI container as a Kalkreactor, connected to the output of my RO/DI system and controlled with an ATO topoff system. Works great! Found the idea in the DIY forum.

sjm817 · 07/12/2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fishbulb2
Thanks sjm,
Looks like my Ca kit is reading quite high. I wonder if the high pH might be interfering with the results. Not sure.

It may be difficult to get an accurate reading at a high level like that. My Salifert kit maxes out at 500

Lo0seR · 07/12/2007, 11:35 PM

Really awsome coming across this thread. I was hoping for more of a "devils advocate" but none really to shoot this whole thing down. Don't get me wrong, it's just that you need them to get all the bugs worked out on new ways to approach things. Seems to me there is way more pro's than con, and so will have to give it a try.

hahnmeister · 07/13/2007, 01:31 AM

Matt Rise, there is a problem with just having water in a bucket... unless you have a sealed lid, the calcium hydroxide will precipitate out and you end up dosing nothing but calcium carbonate which is useless.

Fishbulb2,
Well, no, kalk cant rot itself, but the water going into it isnt exactly running through a UV. Unless its coming right from a RO solenoid, the bucket it comes from has mold in it as well as bacteria. When these bacteria and molds hit the reactor, they provide the materials needed for the kalk to clump together and even change color (mold I would presume). I have had it happen in my own kalk setup... kalk clumping together at the bottom. My setup is a 2' tall, 6" diameter cylinder with a Mag-Drive 3 pump mixing it 12 times a day!!! The acids then turn the kalk into carbonate, and your kalk can easily turn into a chunky piece of chalk. I only speak from personal experience. I couldnt imagine how bad things would get if I didnt have a mixer on my reactor.

Also, the above mentioned authors will also agree that even in the best of reactors, there is some precipitation of calcium carbonate. This is because there will be some CO2 in the water no matter what... and also, kalk is not a pure substance as you may think.

What happens in a system where the kalk isnt stirred, is that the small amount of calcium carbonate that is formed on a regular basis eventually makes itself the top layer... because thats what happens when things precipitate back to the bottom. This layer on the top blocks the hydroxide below from interacting with the water, and therefore you have a drop in output.

The problem with Maxi-Jets is that if they run for more than a minute, they heat up pretty quick. They arent the most efficient pumps. Calcium precipitates on warm objects, and dissolves easier in cooler water... the rest is as you would imagine.

If you use a cooler running pump, like a small Sicce or Hagen, or eheim, you shouldnt have these problems with impellers.

1SickReefer · 07/13/2007, 02:04 AM

I'm with RHF and SMJ, I used to own a GEO kalk rx, I switched to a 44g brute with a peri pump, I like the 44g brute so much better, the GEO was just another thing to leak, break and maintain. My 44g last me about 4 weeks in the summer with the air on, 3 weeks in colder months. So much easier to maintain IMO that a Rx.

07/12/2007, 01:59 PM	#53
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	How are you controlling the topoff? An Aqualifter works great and is ~ $12. __________________ - Scott

07/12/2007, 02:01 PM	#54
8BALL_99 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toney, AL Posts: 3,724	You will probably end up needing More Kalk then even a saturated top off can provide.. I dose Kalk, and 2 part.. I guess it would depend a little on your evap compared to how stocked your tank is.. But really everyone I know uses Kalk and doses or they have both Kalk and CA reactors.. Thats what I do on my 180.. __________________ The problem with political jokes is they get elected. OK, so what's the speed of dark? Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway? Isn't is it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"? Current Tank Info: Custom Starfire 300,92Gallon,35 Gallon Hex,Two 40Gallons,125Gallon,

07/12/2007, 02:06 PM	#55
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	I'm only using 1 teaspoon/gallon to maintain 420/9.6 ca/alk. I have mostly LPS, some SPS and softies. I'll be adding more SPS so my demand will rise. Once I get to where 2 teaspoons isn't enough. I'll start using 2 part. But yeah, Kalk cant usually keep up with a heavy SPS tank. __________________ - Scott

07/12/2007, 02:37 PM	#58
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	Yes. Thats the pump. __________________ - Scott

07/12/2007, 03:11 PM	#60
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	The Aqualifter has it limitations. It wont pump to a tall height. I have to go 5' so I have 2 back to back. You also dont want the topoff higher than the ump, or it will siphon when the pump is off. Great little pump though. __________________ - Scott

07/12/2007, 12:17 PM	#52
seagirl Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,130	oh, that makes sense. i'm with you, i see nothing wrong with this set up, except that i need to get a dosing pump.

07/12/2007, 02:07 PM	#56
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Yeah, I know of a guy east of Madison here (Kevin Stack) whose tank is soooo packed with SPS (its one of those tanks where he has colonies with tips so large that the tips are a colony for most) that he has to use a Ca Reactor, and a 2-part dosing system to keep up.

07/12/2007, 03:20 PM	#61
seagirl Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,130	how do you get the pump higher than the sump? i know it will back siphon, so i planned to have the hose going to the sump above the water line to prevent that.

07/12/2007, 03:21 PM	#62
seagirl Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,130	hey, you just hit 10000 posts!!

07/12/2007, 08:31 PM	#64
Matt Rise Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 453	You can see my Kalk container to the left. It's a simple trash can from Wal Mart with a flip top lid. I bought a small plastic valve at Lowes, and some 1/8" tubing. The valve is glued in with some epoxy, about an inch off the bottom so the sediment settles to the bottom and doesn't get picked up by the drain. I let the top off water drip into the sump. I have it down to about one drop per second now, seems to do a nice job. Cheap too!

07/12/2007, 08:47 PM	#65
jmait769 -CSHFLW Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 2,685	sjm817 â€“ Congrats on over 10,000 posts. I have learned a lot from your posts. I know you decided on the mixing tank but here is my top-off system consisting of a Tunze Osmolator, a ReefTek Kalk Stirrer and a homemade water reservoir you can see in front of the sump. AC Jr. controls the mixing times. I add one 16 oz container of Mrs. Wages pickling lime about every two months. My calcium stays between 400 and 425 but I do have to add Randyâ€™s part 2 once in awhile to bring the ALK up. I tried the mixing container but like this system better. Good luck! Jay __________________ "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work" - Thomas Alva Edison http://www.reeftronics.net/jay-m/reefcam Current Tank Info: 150 Gallon, Marco Rocks, 8x80W ATI Powermodule, Apex, Super Reef Octopus XP-3000 external

07/12/2007, 09:41 PM	#68
Fishbulb2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 1,807	Well, I tested the output of my kalk reactor and it was 1080 ppm Ca according to my kit. My tank was about 500ppm so it is possible that the kit is reading a little high but never the less, I think the reactor us working well. FB __________________ Just getting back in, but trying to do it right! Current Tank Info: 40 gallon tank. SPS, LPS, few softies

07/12/2007, 09:50 PM	#69
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php Limewater that is saturated with calcium hydroxide has a pH of 12.54 at 25ÂºC. It is actually recognized as a secondary pH standard. The pH is substantially higher at lower temperature (12.627 at 20ÂºC and 13.00 at 10ÂºC), and lower at higher temperature (12.289 at 30ÂºC; 11.984 at 40ÂºC). Saturated limewater has a conductivity of about 10.3 mS/cm at 25ÂºC, and contains about 808 ppm of calcium and 40.8 meq/l of alkalinity. Slightly more calcium and alkalinity dissolve at lower temperatures, and less at higher temperatures. Of interest to chemists, a large fraction of the calcium in saturated limewater is present as the ion CaOH+, with the remainder being Ca++. The CaOH+ will instantly dissociate into Ca++ and OH- upon its addition to aquarium water. __________________ - Scott

07/12/2007, 10:07 PM	#70
Fishbulb2 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bethesda, MD Posts: 1,807	Thanks sjm, Looks like my Ca kit is reading quite high. I wonder if the high pH might be interfering with the results. Not sure. __________________ Just getting back in, but trying to do it right! Current Tank Info: 40 gallon tank. SPS, LPS, few softies

07/12/2007, 10:23 PM	#71
petedoc Premium Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lewiston Idaho Posts: 1,131	Great thread! I am using a RO/DI container as a Kalkreactor, connected to the output of my RO/DI system and controlled with an ATO topoff system. Works great! Found the idea in the DIY forum. __________________ Charter member of the Trial and Error Club, when that doesn't work ask the stupid question here on RC to get an intelligent answer. Current Tank Info: 270Reef w/Chrysurus Angel,Vlamingi Tang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Dispar Anthias, Sargassum Trigger

07/12/2007, 11:35 PM	#73
Lo0seR Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: La Mesa, Ca. Posts: 443	Really awsome coming across this thread. I was hoping for more of a "devils advocate" but none really to shoot this whole thing down. Don't get me wrong, it's just that you need them to get all the bugs worked out on new ways to approach things. Seems to me there is way more pro's than con, and so will have to give it a try. __________________ Here's to the losers, bless them all... Mr.F.S Current Tank Info: 240 LeeMar Euro FlatPolished

07/13/2007, 01:31 AM	#74
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Matt Rise, there is a problem with just having water in a bucket... unless you have a sealed lid, the calcium hydroxide will precipitate out and you end up dosing nothing but calcium carbonate which is useless. Fishbulb2, Well, no, kalk cant rot itself, but the water going into it isnt exactly running through a UV. Unless its coming right from a RO solenoid, the bucket it comes from has mold in it as well as bacteria. When these bacteria and molds hit the reactor, they provide the materials needed for the kalk to clump together and even change color (mold I would presume). I have had it happen in my own kalk setup... kalk clumping together at the bottom. My setup is a 2' tall, 6" diameter cylinder with a Mag-Drive 3 pump mixing it 12 times a day!!! The acids then turn the kalk into carbonate, and your kalk can easily turn into a chunky piece of chalk. I only speak from personal experience. I couldnt imagine how bad things would get if I didnt have a mixer on my reactor. Also, the above mentioned authors will also agree that even in the best of reactors, there is some precipitation of calcium carbonate. This is because there will be some CO2 in the water no matter what... and also, kalk is not a pure substance as you may think. What happens in a system where the kalk isnt stirred, is that the small amount of calcium carbonate that is formed on a regular basis eventually makes itself the top layer... because thats what happens when things precipitate back to the bottom. This layer on the top blocks the hydroxide below from interacting with the water, and therefore you have a drop in output. The problem with Maxi-Jets is that if they run for more than a minute, they heat up pretty quick. They arent the most efficient pumps. Calcium precipitates on warm objects, and dissolves easier in cooler water... the rest is as you would imagine. If you use a cooler running pump, like a small Sicce or Hagen, or eheim, you shouldnt have these problems with impellers.

07/13/2007, 02:04 AM	#75
1SickReefer Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Perryville, MD Posts: 1,048	I'm with RHF and SMJ, I used to own a GEO kalk rx, I switched to a 44g brute with a peri pump, I like the 44g brute so much better, the GEO was just another thing to leak, break and maintain. My 44g last me about 4 weeks in the summer with the air on, 3 weeks in colder months. So much easier to maintain IMO that a Rx.