do we need to kill to survive?

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by sabbath
I have started many tanks for over 20 yrs. with just putting fish food in. No seeding. The bacteria naturally starts to build.

I have seed started too. It does start a little faster this way.

Some how you introduced the seed.

From your hands after working in the garden, airborne, or you just forget that you had use water from an existing tank.

[wooden_reefer]

I don't want to argue anymore.

I just want to give a few riddles for the rational to think about.

1. We often suggest to newbies that, if a reef tank had ich, one removes all the fish to QT and treat thoroughly (at least I do). Well, after say five weeks of treatment, one returns all the fish to the reef tank. At such time, after five weeks of reduced bioload in the reef tank, should one worry about ammonia poisoning, since many nitrification bacteria had died of starvation? (My answer is no. ) Do you routinely suggest that once the fish have been removed from the reef tank, one must overfeed the remaining inhabitants to keep the supply of ammonia stable? (My answer is no.)

2. Say you have cycled a 60 gal tank with just three one-ounce damsels. What is the max bioload at this point? Best answer

a. three damsels or one 3-ounce butterfly
b. six damsels or two 3-ounce butterflies
c. 30 damsels or ten 3-ounce butterflies

My best answer is b. It must be more than three damsels as there was accumulation of ammonia during cycling, but not much more since the accumulation was not great or long lasting enough to give great nitrosomonas population.

Why isn't a the answer if nitrification bacteria easily die of starvation? If they do, then accumulation of ammonia would have been useless in cycling. Three damsels can only sustain three damsel for all times.

3. If you removed the three damsels, how many days do you have to add new bioload until the cycling is null and void, ie, all the nitrification bacteria have died of starvation and you have to start over again. (My answer is at least three weeks, may be three months)

4. Now, if you've removed all the damsels and put in sustained sufficiently high level of ammonia for another 30 days, what would be the max bioload at say day 40?
My answer is c. same for day 50

5. Do dealers and LFS owners worry about the nitrification bacteria dying of starvation many days into having sold most livestock? My answer is no.

[Nanz]

My NH3 spiked almost immediately and lasted about 5 days then it just went between 0 and .25ppm. This is the second week and nitrites are getting higher. I'm lucky my husband works at a lab because its nice to have the water tested daily from a lab, hehe.

[greenbean36191]

1. We often suggest to newbies that, if a reef tank had ich, one removes all the fish to QT and treat thoroughly (at least I do). Well, after say five weeks of treatment, one returns all the fish to the reef tank. At such time, after five weeks of reduced bioload in the reef tank, should one worry about ammonia poisoning, since many nitrification bacteria had died of starvation? (My answer is no. ) Do you routinely suggest that once the fish have been removed from the reef tank, one must overfeed the remaining inhabitants to keep the supply of ammonia stable? (My answer is no.)

The only thing this supports is that processing ability doesn't sharply decline when you remove fish as the ammonia source. The idea that the bacteria can fast or go dormant for a few weeks is one possible explanation, but the science doesn't bear it out. They either have enough energy to keep reproducing or they die off after only a few days. Another possible explanation, (which you can measure with lab grade tests and a spectrophotometer) is that the bacterial cycles are acting as their own ammonia source and it takes a long time for them to settle to a new equilibrium.

Say you have cycled a 60 gal tank with just three one-ounce damsels. What is the max bioload at this point?...
Why isn't a the answer if nitrification bacteria easily die of starvation? If they do, then accumulation of ammonia would have been useless in cycling. Three damsels can only sustain three damsel for all times.

Established tanks also don't see ammonia spikes after reasonable livestock additions. Is that because the bacteria from the initial ammonia spike sit around waiting for months or years to be fed again or is it because the existing bacteria ramp up their feeding and reproduction in response to the new ammonia source?

And if an ammonia spike is a prerequisite for being able to increase the bioload why can people take fresh rock that has never seen a spike from the ocean, put it in a tank, and stock the tank right away? That use to be a common practice before Florida rock was banned. It's still somewhat common in areas where LR can be collected. I did it myself a month ago when I was working in the Bahamas.

[bertoni]

I don't think your riddles are relevant. Your answers disagree with my experiences.