Water Changes

[Randall_James]

I think that is the BIG it depends question...

IF the vendor took exceptional care of the uncured rock, maybe nothing at all...

If they threw it in a vat at the back of the store for a month and called it cured, who knows...

If this was a business, I would buy cured rock... as it is a hobby, I like having my tinkering involved in all I can (think that is what defines hobby... not worthwhile for profit? )

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Randall_James
I think that is the BIG it depends question...

IF the vendor took exceptional care of the uncured rock, maybe nothing at all...

If they threw it in a vat at the back of the store for a month and called it cured, who knows...

If this was a business, I would buy cured rock... as it is a hobby, I like having my tinkering involved in all I can (think that is what defines hobby... not worthwhile for profit? )

that is the bottom line-----what defines the hobby to you---there are some many aspects to be involved in that you have to focus on the aspects that make it fun for you

thanks for all your patience and detailed answers---if I ever get into curing my own rock---I've got this thread printed off and tucked away.

[WaterKeeper]

I think we are under the impression still that the water has much to do with the cycle. It really has little to no effect on tank operation and filtration. It is the LR and LS themselves that will provide our tank with the needed bacteria population and the bacteria in the water column are only along for a free ride. As the tank become stable the suspended bacteria population goes into serious decline. It doesn't entirely disappear but if we weighed the suspended bacteria and then the fixed film bacteria we would see that the suspended bacteria are only maybe a couple of thousandths of a percent of the total bacteria population.

I wasn't entirely sure about the comment about not being able to afford separate plastic curing vats. I picked up half a dozen, 15 gallon, shallow, plastic storage bins for under $40 at the dollar store. They have all sorts of other uses after you cure your rock so I can't see that that is too expensive.

Anyway, here is a second opinion, written some time ago by Darren Walker (Palmetto), who was in the LR business. The Beginners Guide to LR.

[Toddrtrex]

$40 at the dollar store?

But you are right, they are cheap, I just picked up two of the rubbermaid containers at Target, think they were $20 or so. And they hold about 15 gallons too. I use two of them because they tend to bow a little bit, feel better having them stacked.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
I think we are under the impression still that the water has much to do with the cycle. It really has little to no effect on tank operation and filtration. It is the LR and LS themselves that will provide our tank with the needed bacteria population and the bacteria in the water column are only along for a free ride. As the tank become stable the suspended bacteria population goes into serious decline. It doesn't entirely disappear but if we weighed the suspended bacteria and then the fixed film bacteria we would see that the suspended bacteria are only maybe a couple of thousandths of a percent of the total bacteria population.

IMHO---I think the orginal discussion centred around whether or not you should do water changes during the cyling stage.
I understand that the bacteria is in the live rock and sand bed areas--and that bacteria increase in response to a bioload.
So IMO I would think that you do not want to remove the stimulus for the growth of bacteria by water changes at this point.

I can see it necessary --at the end point(4-6 weeks-- if your nitrate levels don't come down or simply replacing the water as in a normal water change.

Am I still misssing something here

[Toddrtrex]

You aren't missing something, it is just that there are two schools of thought for this. Some ( like myself ) feel that it helps to do a WC during the cycle, others feel that it isn't needed. All I can say is that I have always done it that way and it has worked for me. Granted I have never ran an experiment with this to see if it is better one way or the other.

[Randall_James]

Sorry Waterkeeper, it was not a finance thing on vats, it was a "room" for them issue.

I have a house and I do not have anyplace for 1 or more curing vats with power and room to spare. Seems with 1600sq you would have room for a few of these but I just dont (except the garage and that has climate control issues)

[Toddrtrex]

That is one advantage for me, my place is about the same size, but it is just me, so the second bedroom/bathroom handle my curing processes.

[WaterKeeper]

Well, fill up the bath tub Randy. You can get by for a couple of weeks by using Rite Guard.

Sorry Cap, but I really don't see any stimulus in providing a toxic environment in the tank when starting out. The median products of a cure are mainly toxic, and when you get by that, the end products are mainly nutrients that will fuel and algae outbreak.

I know that many, many reefkeepers cure the rock in the display, only to be haunted by a Mother of All Algae Blooms (MOALB). The remote curing system is just my own way to avoid the Algae Megaton Blast that follows such practice. A new reefer has a lot to worry about. Why make him/her cope with weeks of mat green algae?

[Randall_James]

Oh man, the bathtub... the only spare I have is full of gin....

The 2 tanks I setup using TBS did not have the post algae bloom. (I also removed some sponges that they missed, terrible sources of nutrient for algae)

I do think the quality of your rock (prep) is going to play a big role here.

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Well, fill up the bath tub Randy. You can get by for a couple of weeks by using Rite Guard.

Sorry Cap, but I really don't see any stimulus in providing a toxic environment in the tank when starting out. The median products of a cure are mainly toxic, and when you get by that, the end products are mainly nutrients that will fuel and algae outbreak.

I know that many, many reefkeepers cure the rock in the display, only to be haunted by a Mother of All Algae Blooms (MOALB). The remote curing system is just my own way to avoid the Algae Megaton Blast that follows such practice. A new reefer has a lot to worry about. Why make him/her cope with weeks of mat green algae?

Thanks tom --the more you discuss this stuff the more you see all perspectives----I never thought about algae blooms and how that could control them

great thread

[Randall_James]

Mother of All Algae Blooms (MOALB)

and get it right (MOAAB)

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Randall_James
Oh man, the bathtub... the only spare I have is full of gin....

The 2 tanks I setup using TBS did not have the post algae bloom. (I also removed some sponges that they missed, terrible sources of nutrient for algae)

I do think the quality of your rock (prep) is going to play a big role here.

but I already use the bathtube to wash my lab.

[lordraptor1]

this is what i have read on the cycling process:


in new freshwater AND saltwater aquariums the ammonia may surge to 6 ppm or more and tehn fall rapidly as teh bacterial filter becomes established, at this point the ammonia level will fall as it is converted to nitrite. the nitrite will gradually climb to 10 ppm or more and then drop to 0 ppm in an established aquarium as the nitrite is converted into nitrate. so if this is the way that the bacterial filter becomes established why do a water change?, i mean unless for some strange reason ammonia or nitrite just are off the chart i see no reason to do a water change and if it is off the chart i suggest you find what is causing the problem instead of just doing water changes. if you find and fix teh problem it will lead to less headaches and dead livestock later.

[lordraptor1]

if you need a live rock cure vat and

1. willing to pick it up

2. willing to pay me a little cash, or trade something i could use in one of my 2 salt tanks.

i have a 7 foot octagonal spa shell (has some of it's plumbing) i could part with

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by Randall_James
Oh man, the bathtub... the only spare I have is full of gin....

The 2 tanks I setup using TBS did not have the post algae bloom. (I also removed some sponges that they missed, terrible sources of nutrient for algae)

I do think the quality of your rock (prep) is going to play a big role here.

reminds me of an old joke about a certain group of people but can be adapted here
Question:
How can you tell a reefer lives in your home?

Answer:
When you have to ask them if the live rock can be removed from the tub so you can take a bath.
LOL

[Aquarist007]

Originally posted by WaterKeeper
Well, fill up the bath tub Randy. You can get by for a couple of weeks by using Rite Guard.

Sorry Cap, but I really don't see any stimulus in providing a toxic environment in the tank when starting out. The median products of a cure are mainly toxic, and when you get by that, the end products are mainly nutrients that will fuel and algae outbreak.

I know that many, many reefkeepers cure the rock in the display, only to be haunted by a Mother of All Algae Blooms (MOALB). The remote curing system is just my own way to avoid the Algae Megaton Blast that follows such practice. A new reefer has a lot to worry about. Why make him/her cope with weeks of mat green algae?

Tom, assuming that you follow the traditional cycling process and let the curing of your live rock cycle the tank-----

at what point should we be doing a water change in the cycling process

[WaterKeeper]

Once the LR is cured it will provide all the bacteria needed to take care of wastes in your tank. At that point I'd drop back to a normal water change routine like 10% per week.

[Aquarist007]

thanks--as always you are the mighty mentor

[whosinpower]

A timely discussion - and one that is regularily hashed about.

I am also cycling a tank right now - using uncured liverock. I have the rock in the tank as this is what was recommended to me by the lfs.

Initially, I saw a massive ammonia spike (to be expected) and was trying to keep them down with water changes - although, not a 100% water change. I changed 45 gallons within the first week. Every other day - 15 gallons.

Second week, I changed 15 gallons. (90 gallon tank) Ran out of salt, ordered it and it just arrived yesterday.

Now we will be at week three on Wednesday. Last night my water parameters showed that ammonia dissappeared completely. This is good. Nitrites are off the scale - really really high. Nitrates are also really really high - off the scale. Salifert test kits.

I am not finished cycling - but was planning on another regimen of 15 gallons every other day starting on Sunday.

My reasoning is that my nitrates are already off the scale and I have no other way of getting them out of the system - no refugium yet because we are still cycling!

Would this be ok? Do I need to do more? Less? Leave it?

[Aquarist007]

I am not trying to be sarcastic here---but are you not using a 90 gal tank to cur your live rock--when maybe you should be using a sytem like Tom described way at the beginning of this thread--a series of small vats?
Ouch--60 buck of salt in a week--I honestly think you could avoid that expense.

[whosinpower]

I am going into week 3 of the cycle. What benefit would it be for me to take everything out and use vats?

[Aquarist007]

no benifit now--just in hindsight.---and this is what this thread is about.

the nitrate levels are high because the bacteria level is still not strong enough---that's a given


At this stage there is probably more bacteria in the water column then on the surfaces of the rock and sand bed. Changing as much water as you are could be actually more harmful then good at this point. IMO let the cycle go on for another week or so on its own with no water changes.