real sea water

[Paul B]

I think this largely depends on where you collect the water from. For me ( I live about 5 minutes from the Long Island Sound) .. there's no way I'm going to go and collect from that area.. I wont' even swim in the sound, no less collect saltwater from... Maybe if I was on the South Easternmost point of Long Island, where it comes in direct contact with the ocean and is furthest away from NYC, I would try it out..

I swim in it, I eat fish from it, I SCUBA in it and my reef has been running on it since Nixon was President.
That is, let me see, 38 years.
I don't think it is that bad.
If your tank reaches that age with ASW than it may be just as good.
It is no doubt heavy and we collect it not because it is free, but because it is better.
I still use moslty ASW because I don't go down to my boat every day and today it was 12 degrees.
My fish live their normal lifespan, some up to 18 years, they are almost all spawning, I personally don't have to quarantine and have not done so in about 30 years. My fish catch no disease or paracites. Can you say the same about using ASW?

[Ncastro1981]

thats the type of responce i was hoping to hear!

[Gdevine]

Originally posted by Paul B
I swim in it, I eat fish from it, I SCUBA in it and my reef has been running on it since Nixon was President.
That is, let me see, 38 years.
I don't think it is that bad.
If your tank reaches that age with ASW than it may be just as good.
It is no doubt heavy and we collect it not because it is free, but because it is better.
I still use moslty ASW because I don't go down to my boat every day and today it was 12 degrees.
My fish live their normal lifespan, some up to 18 years, they are almost all spawning, I personally don't have to quarantine and have not done so in about 30 years. My fish catch no disease or paracites. Can you say the same about using ASW?

...from the Master himself...

BTW, I totally agree with Paul as well.

[Schwanson]

I use nothing but NSW collected locally.
The stuff in the box is too much $$ for me.

[Ncastro1981]

costs too much for me, but its hard to find real sea water in vermont

[Paul B]

Yeah, that Vermont has a real seawater problem

You do have great maple syrup though

[Ncastro1981]

we have the best maple syrup in the world!! Which means we also have some of the breakfast joints in the world... i guess you can guess where this is leading...

I wish i could just drive down to my boat and head out to sea, but alas there is no shore in sight.

[Paul B]

I went to my boat yesterday, it kind of looks like this

[Beaun]

Haha, nice pic...I collect locally from the east end of long island. Its great water, but the sound wouldnt really be that different. The sound gets flushed fairly well on a dialy basis, even near the city. The only issue for me right now is that the water is VERY COLD. I went to the beach yesterday to get a quick 5 gallons and had to stick my hand in the water to get it, while wearing waders, and my hand nearly froze off. However, normally I just take a longer trip to the bay and get it there...much calmer and I can use my regular buckets to get it.

Its great stuff though. Very clean, full of good stuff.

[Paul B]

I am actually going out near you today only I am going to the North Fork, Greenport.

[Beaun]

Bring your sweater

[Ncastro1981]

its cold here too. prob be -10 when i go home 2night

[scottallert]

woo coldest i ever remember last night it hit about 32 degrees!!!
lol i know thats nothing for you guys but i live in south florida for a reason.

[MattAndKim]

Gdevine what he said is that "tanks" where NSW is used as the initial medium do not bear much resemblance to NSW. I think what he is trying to say is in line with Shimek's article called "what are we putting in our tanks" or something like that. I think the jist is that even doing the type of water changes that you are doing cannot compensate for the extremely high import vs. export of deleterious elements that a reef really sees (i.e. massive lead, cobalt, iron, aluminum buildup).

and as for the article you reference regarding the cultivation of invertebrate embryos, do a google search on the salt which the article highly recommends and you will see that a lot of people had severe problems with it...

with all that said, later this year i am moving my tank from north central florida to coastal georgia and i plan on using filtered and skimmed seawater for wc's.

[Ncastro1981]

gona be -15 tonight outside.

[justme97]

Paul, do you get your nsw from the sound or the ocean side of LI? I live in Connecticut, right on the long island sound between bridgeport and new haven. My condo has a small beach about 50 feet from my back door so collection couldn't be easier.

In the winter the water looks crystal clear...it's only the summer where algeas sometimes give it a murky appearance and of course you get the smell of gas from motorboats wafting in the air.

There are a lot of factors that make me leery to use it, especially road run-off. In rain, everything from the road can find it's way into that water....in the summer after rainstorms run-off channels smell like rubber, and in the winter there is less smell but I can imagine all the road chemicals used for the snow working thier way into the water.

I guess my question is, how do you process the water and when done how do you know if you are sucessfull? And if you are using water from a body like long island sound which as far as I know has not corals, that will that water have the nutrients to sustain corals?

[Beaun]

When I get my SW I go to an area on Gardiners Bay that has high flow. It's further away from my home than other areas, but it is cleaner and fresher. Think about an area near you with less impact from boats and has a higher flow. The only thing I do to my water is warm it up and then dump it in. My skimmer does the rest within a few hours. I have been thinking of using carbon, but am not sure of it yet. When summer hits I will be getting the water from the ocean side, its too cold to go in there now though.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How in God's name would fresh NSW NOT have the same chemical composition of NSW? That seems just plain silly to me.

Well, that one is actually easy to answer. No need for God, just a chemist.

To be fair, though, the original point was that the tank using NSW did not match NSW, not that NSW did not match NSW.

Things can and do go wrong between when it is collected from the ocean (even assuming they collect it from an adequately clean location) and when it is added to your tank. At least one company seemed to have extremely high lead and zinc levels, even, IIRC, in their own supplied analysis. Maybe they weren't smart enough to notice it before using it as a marketing tool, or maybe they thought we were not smart enough to notice. Anyway, I'd never recommend it. The may have collected or stored or passed it over metal parts before selling it.

I discuss using NSW here:

The “How To� Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 1: The Salt Water Itself
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php

specifically here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/rhf/index.php#2

from it:

Natural Seawater for Coral Reef Aquaria



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Natural seawater can be a fine source of water for a coral reef aquarium. Many aquarists collect it themselves if they live near an ocean. The most important factors are how pure it is when collected, and how pure it remains until used. It is often suggested to collect the water offshore to avoid run-off and other pollution sources although even offshore waters can have unwanted organisms and chemicals in them. The next best is to collect it from a rising tide from a jetty or other means, to get a bit away from shore. There can be risks to using coastal waters. Depending on the location there could be enough chemicals or pathogens to harm the tank. Also, even far from shore there may be elevated nutrients and salinity that deviates significantly from “pure� seawater.

One issue with natural seawater is that it contains suspended organic molecules, bacteria, phytoplankton and other organisms. In most cases, these will not hurt an aquarium and may actually provide food for many reef aquarium inhabitants. But if the water is stored and allowed to stagnate, the breakdown of these organic materials can produce toxic compounds such as ammonia and hydrogen sulfide. For this reason, storing natural seawater is usually preceded by filtration, and even sterilization processes in some cases. It is beyond the scope of this article to detail these procedures, but aquarists storing natural seawater should be aware of these concerns and seek out additional resources to deal with these issues. For those interested in further details, Martin Moe mentions how to treat and store seawater in his Beginner to Breeder book and also his Marine Systems book.

One word of caution is in order. Some companies collect and sell natural seawater. However, it appears that in some cases this water is not handled as well as it might be. One company, for example, has had significantly elevated lead and zinc in its water, suggesting possible exposure to metals in the collection or handling process (see analyses studies linked below). Consequently, not all “natural seawater� is the same.

[Paul B]

Paul, do you get your nsw from the sound or the ocean side of LI? I live in Connecticut, right on the long island sound between bridgeport and new haven. My condo has a small beach about 50 feet from my back door so collection couldn't be easier.

Justme, I collect it from the Atlantic and the Sound, of course I would rather go to the Atlantic. If I collect in the Sound I take it from between new Rochelle and Sands Poing Long Island.
Where you are the water should be better being farther from NYC.
I would not use 100% water in my tank from the Sound.
It may have some issues but it is much better in the winter. You also need to add some salt as it is very low.
You can take it from the beach near your home on the incoming tide. I personally have never had a problem with it.
Use it as soon as you heat it up and after you strain it through a coffee filter or some other filter. If you are going to store it, it may cloud up due to the surface area of the container it is in. The clouding is from bacteria and will not harm your tank but I would wait until it clears before using it. Just keep it in the dark and if you airate it a little it is better.
If it smells, of course don't collect it.
I sometimes take it in conditions where I should not and I bleach it but I don't want Randy beating me up right now.

[justme97]

Oh yeah...I remember some of your bleaching posts. Hey, I for one trust you but the story of what scented bleach can do is what sent chills down my spine!

So out of curiousity what meathod do you use to strain it through a coffee filter?

Hmmm...I wonder if I can rig my kayak for collection??

[Paul B]

Just like making coffee, put the filter in a funnel and pour the water through it.
It's very complicated.

[Paul B]

Talaverus, a member on here was kind enough to test my water for me. I was very happy as I don't usually test for anything and was surprised by some of the readings.
The last number in each line is my reading, the number before it is the amount present in seawater.
For instance my calcium reads 516, seawater is 418
My copper and zinc seem a little high, but I figured that.
My nitrate is 5, not too bad
Everything else seems OK.
I figured this would go with this thread being I use a portion of NSW collected from NY and have been for years.

Thanks again Stuart.


Analysis Atomic Symbol Units
(ppm) Acceptable Range
(Assumes Corals) Natural Seawater Value Your
Sample Results
Aluminum Al mg/L <0.2 0.001 <0.02
Arsenic As mg/L 0.0023 - 0.0037 0.002 0.07
Barium Ba mg/L 0.01 -0.03 0.015 0.040
Boron B mg/L 3 - 15 4.4 1.76
Calcium Ca mg/L 350 - 422 418 516
Cadmium Cd mg/L <0.0003 0.000114 <0.0003
Cobalt Co mg/L 0 - 0.002 0.0000068 0.0023
Chromium Cr mg/L <0.05 0.0001– 0.0005 <0.05
Copper Cu mg/L 0 - 0.01 0.000212 <0.05
Iron Fe mg/L <0.1 0.00014 - 0.045 0.05
Potassium K mg/L 380 - 500 399 468
Magnesium Mg mg/L 1200 - 1350 1280 1320
Manganese Mn mg/L 0.000275 - .05 0.000275 - .002 <0.001
Molybdenum Mo mg/L 0.008 - 0.01 0.01 0.015
Sodium Na mg/L 10800 10800 9390
Scandium Sc mg/L <0.005 0.000001 <0.005
Nickel Ni mg/L 0.000633 - 0.01 0.000633 <0.01
Lead Pb mg/L 0.000002 - .001 0.000035 0.006
Lithium Li mg/L 0.15 - 0.3 0.178 0.02
Selenium Se mg/L 0.0000085 - 0.15 0.000085 <0.1
Silicon Si mg/L <5.5 2.8 0.26
Strontium Sr mg/L 7.7 - 13 7.7 - 13 6.38
Sulfur S mg/L 30 - 930 904 861
Titanium Ti mg/L 0.0000009 - 0.003 0.000014 <0.01
Uranium U mg/L 0.0025 - 0.005 0.0032 0.0010
Vanadium V mg/L 0.003 - 0.02 0.0012 - 0.002 <0.003
Zinc Zn mg/L 0.000529 - .01 0.000529 <0.1

Bromide Br 60 - 75 66 78
Chloride Cl 1500 - 19345 19345 20000
Fluoride F 0.5 - 1.5 1 0.24

Sulphate SO4 <2701 2701 2600



Sample Temperature For Remaining Analysis: 73.7F
Analysis Acceptable Status Results
Iodide mg/L 0.02 to 0.04 Reef Low 0.002
Iodine/Iodate mg/L Reef Low 0.00
Ammonia mg/L 0 (below surface) Normal - Client will see 0 <0.15
Alkalinity Total dKH 8 - 13 dKH Good 11.462
Alkalinity Borate dKH Good 2.236
Alkalinity Carbonate dKH 8 - 9dKh Good 9.225
Nitrate mg/L 0.1 - 2.5 Reef High 5
Nitrite mg/L 0 Good 0
Phosphate mg/L 0.07 High 0.2
Silicate mg/L 0.02 High 0.5

Salinity ppt S=35 Perfect 35
Specific Gravity 1.025 - 1.026 Perfect


__________________

[Ncastro1981]

great info guys

[stanlalee]

Originally posted by Paul B

My fish live their normal lifespan, some up to 18 years, they are almost all spawning, I personally don't have to quarantine and have not done so in about 30 years. My fish catch no disease or paracites. Can you say the same about using ASW?

there are plenty cases of 15+ year old fish with synthetic seawater (tangs and clownfish anyway) and PLENTY of synthetic seawater tanks that never quarantined and remained disease free (wouldn't you suspect specimen selection would be more of a factor than the water). I think for the most part fish are the LEAST thing affected by synthetic seawater.
Its not a question if seawater is better, its a question of how practical it is for most people to use. you have to live in select costal areas of the country (try collecting seawater from new jersey) with the means to collect it or pay $3/gallon vs $0.30/gallon. then there is the issue of maintaining it. if you have a tank stuffed full of hard corals you cant (practically) maintain natural seawater levels without adding chemicals in which case you have NSW with a bunch of calcium, magnesium chloride and carbonate salts added. is that still natural sea water?

[jgln]

Originally posted by stanlalee
(try collecting seawater from new jersey)

I live in NJ, I have, why the issue in NJ? If it's a water pollution issue Paul B. lives not too far away.