Should I treat my tank for ich??? - Page 3

JTL · 04/03/2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenglish

Does every tank have it is quite well disproven. The nature of it's ability to lay dormant is also well established.

Address the second part of your response with some facts. "Well established"? Like there is no doubt?

jenglish · 04/03/2010, 04:54 PM

Are you referring to the amount of time it can lay dormant in the absence of a host or the amount of time it can be hosting a fish with no visible signs?

JTL · 04/03/2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenglish

Are you referring to the amount of time it can lay dormant in the absence of a host or the amount of time it can be hosting a fish with no visible signs?

Both, but in particular the amount of time without a host. The cycle I agree has been established. I would like to see something "conclusive" that says the parasite can survive without a host for years.

jenglish · 04/03/2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTL

Both, but in particular the amount of time without a host. The cycle I agree has been established. I would like to see something "conclusive" that says the parasite can survive without a host for years.

I believe the longest cycle is about 72 days, so without a host that would be the longest it can live since it is an obligate parasite. Or maybe the 72 days was how long it was encysted... my memory fails me on that. But the long and shot of it is the time it can survive in a fishless system is in terms of weeks... maybe months but not years.

Are you asking if it can really survive without a host for years (which I would say is false based on what is stated above) or are you asking about how long it can go without being visible but still hosted? I am just trying to get this right before I go looking for articles

Fishbutt · 04/03/2010, 09:47 PM

Omg... slow down. Making your fish go from tank to tank to tank is super stressful and can make them more-easily succumb to ich. Slow down. Get a QT and treat everything with copper. Put everything back in 5 weeks.

returnofsid · 04/04/2010, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJL

I have read endless articles and I respectfully disagree. Does every tank have it? Does it lie dormant for years? Can it die out on its own? Is it stress induced. I do believe it needs a host to continue, but the rest is by no means conclusive. Also, don't be so quick to assume people don't do research just because you don't agree.

It has been well proven that Ich doesn't exist in every tank and that a tank can be made free of Ich, with proper QT procedures. To claim otherwise does show a lack of reading the proper research.

Metal Man 1221 · 04/04/2010, 12:28 AM

lol i totally saw this whole ich political arguement coming....

from my experiance, acclimate fish for AT LEAST an hour, throwing fish in the tank can shock them if conditions are extreamly different and the fish MAY die with in hours from the stress, and keep fish well fed and healthy, usually the leading cause to stress or disease is bad water peramiters stressing fish

good luck

steelhead77 · 04/04/2010, 03:43 AM

Did not...Did so...Did not....Look, all I'm saying is that I think it is rash to tell everyone that has a spot or three of ich show up on a fish that they need to take all the fish out of their DT and place them in a QT for 5 or 6 weeks otherwise they're doomed to a tank full of ich for all eternity. For most of us with 100 pounds of LR, this is not practical nor feasible. Look what happened to the OP. His fish probably needlessly died because he panicked and followed the "remove and treat" advise. Could he have handled it better? Maybe. Could he have avoided this by QT'ing his fish first? Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, I still stand by my claim that fish do NOT summarily need to be removed and treated at the first sign of ich.

JTL · 04/04/2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnofsid

It has been well proven that Ich doesn't exist in every tank and that a tank can be made free of Ich, with proper QT procedures. To claim otherwise does show a lack of reading the proper research.

I don't believe I claimed anything other than I think it takes a fish for ich to survive. You used the term "conclusive" which by definition puts and end to the debate or questioning. Since the debate continues I said it wasn't conclusive. These forums should be for helping and giving advice not for taking shots at people.

JTL · 04/04/2010, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenglish

I believe the longest cycle is about 72 days, so without a host that would be the longest it can live since it is an obligate parasite. Or maybe the 72 days was how long it was encysted... my memory fails me on that. But the long and shot of it is the time it can survive in a fishless system is in terms of weeks... maybe months but not years.

Are you asking if it can really survive without a host for years (which I would say is false based on what is stated above) or are you asking about how long it can go without being visible but still hosted? I am just trying to get this right before I go looking for articles

It is not really necessary for you to spend the time looking for articles, but thanks for offering. I spent what seemed like days reading about ich a while back. That is why I maintain that the debate continues and not everyone is in agreement on all of the points. Personally, I think it likely exists in more tanks than people think because it may not always have an obvious physical appearance. I quarantine my new fish and I have not had any visual signs. Having said that, it may be in the gills. I don't routinely treat with copper or hypo. I may have introduced it by adding a coral or some pods or LR, but since the fish are otherwise healthy they show no symptoms. The benefits of a QT are obvious, but to be certain of maintaining an ich free environment takes a lot of effort. I was encouraged by the possibility that it could die off on its own in a year if no new fish were added but that may be wishful thinking. Too bad there isn't more info on that subject.

jenglish · 04/04/2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTL

It is not really necessary for you to spend the time looking for articles, but thanks for offering. I spent what seemed like days reading about ich a while back. That is why I maintain that the debate continues and not everyone is in agreement on all of the points. Personally, I think it likely exists in more tanks than people think because it may not always have an obvious physical appearance. I quarantine my new fish and I have not had any visual signs. Having said that, it may be in the gills. I don't routinely treat with copper or hypo. I may have introduced it by adding a coral or some pods or LR, but since the fish are otherwise healthy they show no symptoms. The benefits of a QT are obvious, but to be certain of maintaining an ich free environment takes a lot of effort. I was encouraged by the possibility that it could die off on its own in a year if no new fish were added but that may be wishful thinking. Too bad there isn't more info on that subject.

I agree that it is probably in many more tanks than people think. SHoot, I rushed home from a frag swap yesterday and put some straight in to the tank before going out. It could be encysted on the rocks. But I take some of those risks a bit cavalier knowing that with 2 clowns in a 30.. I have QT tanks bigger than that nano sitting dry in the shed and I can deal with it pretty easily if I have to. So it is a calculated risk that I take.

Burgess did have some strains that died off after no new hosts or parasites. He was trying to study something else at the time IIRC. You have probably read about this one. As far as I know it has never been replicated. In science it isn't real until somebody else replicates it. I don't know that anyone has tried to replicate it since it was sort of an accidental finding. I think Lee Birch may have witnessed it in another set up and not published it. I think I recall seeing him discuss in in one forum or another.

But since it is not established (i.e. repeated) it is a grey area that I don't reccomend as a strategy but is a distinct possibility. The other part is that just like ich has a normal distribution (bell curve) or time it takes for a single generation to pass, it may also have a range for how many generations it takes to weaken (if this does happen in all strains or is just an artifact of the strain Burgess started with). So there could be variability in both the time a generation takes and number of generations before weakening. I The amount of time Burgess records could then be an average number or it could be in the tails of the distribution as an especially quick die off, or an especially long one. It is unlikely to be a especially long one because if ich typically died off in a system in 6 months we would all sleep better at night

. Also do not know the host used or if this is host specific. COuld it be that a tang never develops enough immunity to fight off a weakening strain.

So basically I guess my point is there is some gray areas that are difficult to study in a scientific manner. There may be a limit to how long a single strain lasts and there may not. The amount of time and money it would take to settle this makes it unlikely anyone will study it. Quite frankly there is no money in it

Most research and public displays have QT procedures in place that are easier for them to use than try and study this wearing out phenomenon. If someone wanted to write a dissertation on it that would be the only way I can see it getting studied.

JTL · 04/04/2010, 10:49 AM

Good points and thanks for the insight. If it is in my DT and I don't know it I can only hope I never find out. I have 4 fish in a QT right now. Actually I have a 35g that I use as a FOWLR that double as a QT. If I ever have to treat I would need to move the fish to a hospital setup. I know the rule is keep them in there for 6-8 weeks but if I am not treating with copper or hypo I am not sure it needs to be that long. In the case of ich if it is going to be visible early on how long do you think that would take. Obviously it could be in the gills and not show up for a very long time but that could also be beyond the "normal" quarantine period. I should probably be medicating with copper but realizing that I will get sloppy in other areas tells me it is not worth the effort.

jenglish · 04/04/2010, 01:03 PM

Because a fish can have ich and not show signs of it an observational QT always presents some risk. Generally a netting at the LFS or a cross country shipment is enough stress to shows visible ich. THere are some who advocate intentionally stressing a fish. I can't say I would try that myself. There are others who treat with copper no matter what, along with some things for internal parasites. It would really depend on the fish and the system before I tried that prematurely. I really feel like copper treatment is about the equivelent of giving chemo to someone in case they have cancer. For me I run observational QT and then roll the dice. If it were the last fish in a large system that would preclude me from ever removing all the fish to treat I would probably run a 6 week hypo treatment first. This still leaves the possibility of hypo resisten strains, but would be a happy level of risk for me.

JTL · 04/04/2010, 04:13 PM

Very logical argument and I agree. What do you think on an observational basis? My thought is a couple of weeks.

jenglish · 04/04/2010, 07:24 PM

I tend to do observational QT at least 4 weeks. In all honesty, if they are not showing ich when they are put in.... and not stressed by the time the cycle would come around to that stage again (which they should be acclimated by then) you are probably not going to see them anyway. I think I went 5 weeks last time after telling myself 6.

bertoni · 04/04/2010, 08:18 PM

Could we move the arguments about marine ich treatment to another thread?

I think that getting a quarantine tank going and treating the fish would be my approach.

returnofsid · 04/04/2010, 08:34 PM

TJL, I apologize. Didn't mean it to sound like I was taking a shot at you, personally.

Bertoni, I apologize for taking part in the arguments, as well.

I do agree that QT is your best course of action, but that it also involves the stress of capturing all the fish. ALSO, if you do decide to go with QT, be aware that you don't want to put all the fish in a newly set up QT tank. The QT tank will need to be cycled, preferably with an established filter media, such as a HOB Media filter, Canister Media Filter or even a sponge filter.

MyReef 2b Great · 04/06/2010, 01:50 PM

thought I'd update you guys. The new hippo tang has been doing ok.It doesn't swim around as much as the first but he doe swim around. He has done some flashing. But that has stopped now. And I do think that I was paranoid because I did see one or two dots on this fish sometimes and I think it was the sand. This one however does not like the nori. So i bought the formula 2 flakes and feed that and brine shrimp twice a day.

returnofsid · 04/06/2010, 02:24 PM

Keep offering the Nori, but maybe in different parts of the tank. Also, try the dried Algae sheets, red and green. Eventually, it'll really start pigging out on it.

JTL · 04/06/2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnofsid

TJL, I apologize. Didn't mean it to sound like I was taking a shot at you, personally.

Bertoni, I apologize for taking part in the arguments, as well.

I do agree that QT is your best course of action, but that it also involves the stress of capturing all the fish. ALSO, if you do decide to go with QT, be aware that you don't want to put all the fish in a newly set up QT tank. The QT tank will need to be cycled, preferably with an established filter media, such as a HOB Media filter, Canister Media Filter or even a sponge filter.

Return, no problem, I may have over reacted myself.

I can attest to how fast you can get an ammonia spike. I put four relatively small fish in a 35g QT that had a pair of clowns in it that I removed and LR and a fuge I still got a small spike and had to do daily partial water changes for a few days. I would consider this a fairly mature tank that I use as a QT/DT.

p7seas · 04/06/2010, 07:32 PM

DO NOT TREAT YOUR DT WITH ANY MEDICATION!Take it from a guy who had to learn the hard way. The med. will kill the bacteria in your tank,causing a ammonia spike,resulting in a mass die off.Many fish will get better on their own with proper nutrition,but if you do treat your fish do it in a QT.It's a pain,but worth the trouble.

04/03/2010, 04:54 PM	#52
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	Are you referring to the amount of time it can lay dormant in the absence of a host or the amount of time it can be hosting a fish with no visible signs? __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

04/04/2010, 12:28 AM	#57
Metal Man 1221 FMMAS Executive Director Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Fargo ND Posts: 1,504	lol i totally saw this whole ich political arguement coming.... from my experiance, acclimate fish for AT LEAST an hour, throwing fish in the tank can shock them if conditions are extreamly different and the fish MAY die with in hours from the stress, and keep fish well fed and healthy, usually the leading cause to stress or disease is bad water peramiters stressing fish good luck __________________ "My advise is, always look at their aquarium before you take their advise. Because alot of people give advise and they havnt got a clue" ~David Saxby~ "Only after the last tree's cut and the last river poisoned only after the last fish is caught will you find that money cannot be eaten" ~Lamb of God~ Current Tank Info: 125g DT, 45g sump ---- 57g Illuminata, custom sump

04/04/2010, 03:43 AM	#58
steelhead77 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Albany, Oregon Posts: 1,117	Did not...Did so...Did not....Look, all I'm saying is that I think it is rash to tell everyone that has a spot or three of ich show up on a fish that they need to take all the fish out of their DT and place them in a QT for 5 or 6 weeks otherwise they're doomed to a tank full of ich for all eternity. For most of us with 100 pounds of LR, this is not practical nor feasible. Look what happened to the OP. His fish probably needlessly died because he panicked and followed the "remove and treat" advise. Could he have handled it better? Maybe. Could he have avoided this by QT'ing his fish first? Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, I still stand by my claim that fish do NOT summarily need to be removed and treated at the first sign of ich. __________________ This really isn't rocket science - it's more like marine biology. Current tank info: 180 gallon AGA, 40 gallon custom sump, AquaC EV240 skimmer, PM calc reactor, 3x 250w DIY MH, PCI CL-650 Chiller, 2x Koralia 4's, 2x Koralia 2's

04/04/2010, 10:49 AM	#62
JTL Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Venice Island, FL Posts: 2,532	Good points and thanks for the insight. If it is in my DT and I don't know it I can only hope I never find out. I have 4 fish in a QT right now. Actually I have a 35g that I use as a FOWLR that double as a QT. If I ever have to treat I would need to move the fish to a hospital setup. I know the rule is keep them in there for 6-8 weeks but if I am not treating with copper or hypo I am not sure it needs to be that long. In the case of ich if it is going to be visible early on how long do you think that would take. Obviously it could be in the gills and not show up for a very long time but that could also be beyond the "normal" quarantine period. I should probably be medicating with copper but realizing that I will get sloppy in other areas tells me it is not worth the effort. __________________ John 100 gallon DT and 50 gallon sump with refugium. Reefbreeders Photon V2+.

04/04/2010, 01:03 PM	#63
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	Because a fish can have ich and not show signs of it an observational QT always presents some risk. Generally a netting at the LFS or a cross country shipment is enough stress to shows visible ich. THere are some who advocate intentionally stressing a fish. I can't say I would try that myself. There are others who treat with copper no matter what, along with some things for internal parasites. It would really depend on the fish and the system before I tried that prematurely. I really feel like copper treatment is about the equivelent of giving chemo to someone in case they have cancer. For me I run observational QT and then roll the dice. If it were the last fish in a large system that would preclude me from ever removing all the fish to treat I would probably run a 6 week hypo treatment first. This still leaves the possibility of hypo resisten strains, but would be a happy level of risk for me. __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

04/03/2010, 09:47 PM	#55
Fishbutt Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3	Omg... slow down. Making your fish go from tank to tank to tank is super stressful and can make them more-easily succumb to ich. Slow down. Get a QT and treat everything with copper. Put everything back in 5 weeks.

04/04/2010, 04:13 PM	#64
JTL Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Venice Island, FL Posts: 2,532	Very logical argument and I agree. What do you think on an observational basis? My thought is a couple of weeks. __________________ John 100 gallon DT and 50 gallon sump with refugium. Reefbreeders Photon V2+.

04/04/2010, 07:24 PM	#65
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	I tend to do observational QT at least 4 weeks. In all honesty, if they are not showing ich when they are put in.... and not stressed by the time the cycle would come around to that stage again (which they should be acclimated by then) you are probably not going to see them anyway. I think I went 5 weeks last time after telling myself 6. __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

04/04/2010, 08:18 PM	#66
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Could we move the arguments about marine ich treatment to another thread? I think that getting a quarantine tank going and treating the fish would be my approach. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

04/04/2010, 08:34 PM	#67
returnofsid Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,852	TJL, I apologize. Didn't mean it to sound like I was taking a shot at you, personally. Bertoni, I apologize for taking part in the arguments, as well. I do agree that QT is your best course of action, but that it also involves the stress of capturing all the fish. ALSO, if you do decide to go with QT, be aware that you don't want to put all the fish in a newly set up QT tank. The QT tank will need to be cycled, preferably with an established filter media, such as a HOB Media filter, Canister Media Filter or even a sponge filter.

04/06/2010, 01:50 PM	#68
MyReef 2b Great Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83	thought I'd update you guys. The new hippo tang has been doing ok.It doesn't swim around as much as the first but he doe swim around. He has done some flashing. But that has stopped now. And I do think that I was paranoid because I did see one or two dots on this fish sometimes and I think it was the sand. This one however does not like the nori. So i bought the formula 2 flakes and feed that and brine shrimp twice a day.

04/06/2010, 02:24 PM	#69
returnofsid Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,852	Keep offering the Nori, but maybe in different parts of the tank. Also, try the dried Algae sheets, red and green. Eventually, it'll really start pigging out on it.

04/06/2010, 07:32 PM	#71
p7seas Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 45	DO NOT TREAT YOUR DT WITH ANY MEDICATION!Take it from a guy who had to learn the hard way. The med. will kill the bacteria in your tank,causing a ammonia spike,resulting in a mass die off.Many fish will get better on their own with proper nutrition,but if you do treat your fish do it in a QT.It's a pain,but worth the trouble.