BIO-SEAÂ® Marinemix: THe untold story - Page 3

saltshop · 05/21/2003, 11:05 AM

....so if the "independent" analysis that Habib posted is correct and we use Ron's IO numbers (since they were lower than the A&B article) we get IO having 15x more Zinc, 18x more Copper, 100x more Nickel, and 340x more Cobalt than Crystal Sea? Now if I remember correctly all of these have been found to be toxic to one marine life form or another in rather small concentrations. I also recall seeing some work stating that as far as Zinc, Nickel, and Cobalt are concerned all are rather rapidly and nearly completely complexed by organic ligands or bound to Manganese Oxides in sea water which would drastically reduce toxicity...so now what to think? I am pretty sure cobalt is rapidly scavenged by cyanobacteria since it is needed in the nitrogen fixation process so if you don't want cyano switch to CSBA?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05/21/2003, 12:30 PM

I think he meant between ratio between Crystal Sea/NSW and IO.

I never made a commnet about the stastical significance between those, so he must have misunderstood if that's what he meant.

While CS says right on their label that their product does not contain EDTA, for all practical purposes they will have to use some buffer/chelator to make their product work. IO does and that explains the

For those reading this thread that did not see similar posts elsewhere, Instant Ocean does not contain EDTA.

Habib · 05/21/2003, 03:08 PM

Justin:

...and we use Ron's IO numbers (since they were lower than the A&B article) we ...

I don't think you may make the comparison.

- We don't know if the "Independent" results are correct.

- Ron used the A&B figures because he had (IIRC) not enough confidence in the IO water prepared by the hobbyist.

The A&B figures are very likely incorrect for recent IO batches.

we get IO having 15x more Zinc, 18x more Copper, 100x more Nickel, and 340x more Cobalt than Crystal Sea?

If what I have written here above is reasonable then such a comparison can't be made IMO.

I am pretty sure cobalt is rapidly scavenged by cyanobacteria

Ever measured Co during Cyano blooms?

FWIW I have and no there is plenty of Co in the water and is hardly depeleted. I know NSW around reefs contains some B12.

Jimbo327 · 05/21/2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
I think he meant between ratio between Crystal Sea/NSW and IO.

I never made a commnet about the stastical significance between those, so he must have misunderstood if that's what he meant.

While CS says right on their label that their product does not contain EDTA, for all practical purposes they will have to use some buffer/chelator to make their product work. IO does and that explains the

For those reading this thread that did not see similar posts elsewhere, Instant Ocean does not contain EDTA.

I agree the confusion stems from the similar names that these products use. And I've read in other posts that Instant Ocean, in the past, does contain EDTA. I don't remember where I read it, there are so many threads in different forums that it's hard to track. Anyone?

Jim

saltshop · 05/21/2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Habib

I don't think you may make the comparison.

- We don't know if the "Independent" results are correct.

That is why I used "independent" in quotes as it appeared to part of their marketing material. Not real confident myself that it is accurate.

Ron used the A&B figures because he had (IIRC) not enough confidence in the IO water prepared by the hobbyist.

The A&B figures are very likely incorrect for recent IO batches.

No, I was comparing it to the "fresh" Instant Ocean sample that Ron made up and was part of the control in the very first article 02/2002. It was not prepared by the hobbyists, but by Ron with RO/DI water...although it sat for 2 weeks in an FDA container. This "control sample" had consideribly lower HM than was the case in A & B which is probably outdated.

"There were 24 samples analyzed: 23 aquarium samples, and one sample, of Instant Ocean(tm) (IO), prepared with 0 total dissolved solids RO/DI, mixed to 35 ppt, and stored for two weeks prior to testing in an FDA food-grade container."
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.htm

Ever measured Co during Cyano blooms?

FWIW I have and no there is plenty of Co in the water and is hardly depeleted. I know NSW around reefs contains some B12.

No, what was the speciation of the Co?

301 page thesis on the Biogeochemistry of Cobalt in sea water...happy reading! FWIW, I have been unable to make it through all 301 pages before my brain goes numb and I start to drink heavily.
http://www.princeton.edu/~msaito/Saito_Thesis.pdf

TheNomadRhodes · 02/25/2007, 08:22 PM

Hiya every one I know I may be jumping in to this a little late.
But I have a 120g and a 24g Nano.
And when I do a water change every 2 months I've used a different salt, Kent,IO,Red sea, and Oceanic Salt. and now i'm going to try this Crystal sea stuff.
i've used all these salts and i've really never seen any differents in my fish or corals, I'm no chemist or Scientist.
From what i've heard from reefers is all salt is pretty much the same.
The only thing I really care about is how well does it mix and dose it make the water cloudy. I've never had any thing bleach after I've switched salts. maybe I'm just lucky.
Does the salt really matter? if you do a water change and dont over feed and all that shoudnt you be able to grow any thing you want in the tank?
Its like motor oil, its all pretty much the same no matter what they say or how much it cost if you dont take of the Machain it will end badly..thats where I come in

That coming from a Truck driver/ industrial mechanic with bad grammer

who likes to throw his two cents in

05/21/2003, 11:05 AM	#51
saltshop Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Jackson, MI Posts: 1,518	....so if the "independent" analysis that Habib posted is correct and we use Ron's IO numbers (since they were lower than the A&B article) we get IO having 15x more Zinc, 18x more Copper, 100x more Nickel, and 340x more Cobalt than Crystal Sea? Now if I remember correctly all of these have been found to be toxic to one marine life form or another in rather small concentrations. I also recall seeing some work stating that as far as Zinc, Nickel, and Cobalt are concerned all are rather rapidly and nearly completely complexed by organic ligands or bound to Manganese Oxides in sea water which would drastically reduce toxicity...so now what to think? I am pretty sure cobalt is rapidly scavenged by cyanobacteria since it is needed in the nitrogen fixation process so if you don't want cyano switch to CSBA? __________________ Justin Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef

05/21/2003, 12:30 PM	#52
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I think he meant between ratio between Crystal Sea/NSW and IO. I never made a commnet about the stastical significance between those, so he must have misunderstood if that's what he meant. While CS says right on their label that their product does not contain EDTA, for all practical purposes they will have to use some buffer/chelator to make their product work. IO does and that explains the For those reading this thread that did not see similar posts elsewhere, Instant Ocean does not contain EDTA. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

05/21/2003, 03:08 PM	#53
Habib CEO of Salifert Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Holland (Europe) Posts: 19,447	Justin: ...and we use Ron's IO numbers (since they were lower than the A&B article) we ... I don't think you may make the comparison. - We don't know if the "Independent" results are correct. - Ron used the A&B figures because he had (IIRC) not enough confidence in the IO water prepared by the hobbyist. The A&B figures are very likely incorrect for recent IO batches. we get IO having 15x more Zinc, 18x more Copper, 100x more Nickel, and 340x more Cobalt than Crystal Sea? If what I have written here above is reasonable then such a comparison can't be made IMO. I am pretty sure cobalt is rapidly scavenged by cyanobacteria Ever measured Co during Cyano blooms? FWIW I have and no there is plenty of Co in the water and is hardly depeleted. I know NSW around reefs contains some B12. __________________ Proud owner of the very rare YET (Yellow Elephantis Tang) from the Lord Bibah Islands. "Ice cream, steaks, and Bailey's Irish Cream all help promote healthy immune systems. Why else would I love to naturally eat them packed with fat as they are?" - R. Holmes-Farley, 2012

05/21/2003, 03:26 PM	#55
saltshop Premium Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Jackson, MI Posts: 1,518	Originally posted by Habib I don't think you may make the comparison. - We don't know if the "Independent" results are correct. That is why I used "independent" in quotes as it appeared to part of their marketing material. Not real confident myself that it is accurate. Ron used the A&B figures because he had (IIRC) not enough confidence in the IO water prepared by the hobbyist. The A&B figures are very likely incorrect for recent IO batches. No, I was comparing it to the "fresh" Instant Ocean sample that Ron made up and was part of the control in the very first article 02/2002. It was not prepared by the hobbyists, but by Ron with RO/DI water...although it sat for 2 weeks in an FDA container. This "control sample" had consideribly lower HM than was the case in A & B which is probably outdated. "There were 24 samples analyzed: 23 aquarium samples, and one sample, of Instant Ocean(tm) (IO), prepared with 0 total dissolved solids RO/DI, mixed to 35 ppt, and stored for two weeks prior to testing in an FDA food-grade container." http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.htm Ever measured Co during Cyano blooms? FWIW I have and no there is plenty of Co in the water and is hardly depeleted. I know NSW around reefs contains some B12. No, what was the speciation of the Co? 301 page thesis on the Biogeochemistry of Cobalt in sea water...happy reading! FWIW, I have been unable to make it through all 301 pages before my brain goes numb and I start to drink heavily. http://www.princeton.edu/~msaito/Saito_Thesis.pdf __________________ Justin Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef

02/25/2007, 08:22 PM	#56
TheNomadRhodes Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lubbock Tx Posts: 195	Salt Hiya every one I know I may be jumping in to this a little late. But I have a 120g and a 24g Nano. And when I do a water change every 2 months I've used a different salt, Kent,IO,Red sea, and Oceanic Salt. and now i'm going to try this Crystal sea stuff. i've used all these salts and i've really never seen any differents in my fish or corals, I'm no chemist or Scientist. From what i've heard from reefers is all salt is pretty much the same. The only thing I really care about is how well does it mix and dose it make the water cloudy. I've never had any thing bleach after I've switched salts. maybe I'm just lucky. Does the salt really matter? if you do a water change and dont over feed and all that shoudnt you be able to grow any thing you want in the tank? Its like motor oil, its all pretty much the same no matter what they say or how much it cost if you dont take of the Machain it will end badly..thats where I come in That coming from a Truck driver/ industrial mechanic with bad grammer who likes to throw his two cents in