Bioballs and a wet-dry---reefing in the 80's: FYI

[scubasteve06]

Make no mistake that bio-balls work in converting toxic waste matter (ammonia) into less toxic waste matter (nitrate). They work in a FOWLR tank that only has fish in it, and I've seen hermits survive high nitrates. But nowadays with everyone wanting to keep LPS, SPS, and Nem's these animals just mentioned will not tolerate high levels off nitrate or even low levels for sustained periods of time. Over the past 5 years bio-balls have been phased out in place of refugiums, carbon dosing, and bio-pellets just recently. These last three methods I mentioned are the successful ways in keeping the more nitrate sensitive animals. Let me also add that shrimps, snails, and almost all inverts aside from mushrooms will not tolerate the levels of nitrate that bio-balls and wet-dry's will eventually produce. Now like Palting said if you clean them every week, do big 50% water changes weekly not bi-weekly or monthly and run a very over sized skimmer then bio-balls will work. I won't guarantee how long they will, but they will work. Most people that get into this hobby nowadays for the first time are appalled at the prices of the equipment that it takes to run a successful reef tank. They are not going to want to have to do the kind of maintenance that bio-balls will necessitate like huge water changes, keeping the bio-balls clean and keeping their substrate completely detritus free. A sump with a refugium in it with a DSB and macro algae along with a properly sized protein skimmer will be infinitely more effective in the long run than a wet-dry with bio-balls. Add a carbon reactor, GFO reactor and or a Pellet Reactor and you can go a month without doing a water change. What other methods does anyone know that can produce results like these all the while keeping SPS corals, LPS corals, Anemone's and nitrate sensitive animals like shrimp, snails, cuc's, conchs etc. etc. without having to do a water change for a month because there are no signs of nitrates present? I don't know of any and thus the reason why marine hobbyist have made the switch to the Berlin style system or plenum systems. Sorry for the long winded post but its critical that people new to this hobby see this and don't set themselves up for disaster later on.

[jenglish]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Mind that I say you should run cheatomorpha in your fuge---NOT caulerpa, which is a frequent mistake by people setting up a fuge. Caulerpa reproduces by runner, by spores, and by fragmentation---and is banned for good reason in California and elsewhere. It escapes through to your display, roots in your rocks, and becomes a lasting headache. Never use that stuff. But use a fuge with cheato: absolutely. Definitely.

I would agree with this to start. But keep in mind a number of people who have used fuges for years prefer caulerpa to chaeto and do not have problems with it getting into a display. They find it offers more nutrient removal. It runs more risks of going haywire while chaeto offers practically no risk. If you were setting up a a fuge for the first time then I think a fuge with nothing but chaeto, bare bottom, no rock, and a light is the simplest way to go.

[Sk8r]

Thank you for that, Scubasteve.

Jenglish, I certainly do have a bias: I had caulerpa root in my rock. It has resisted every means but tangs and rabbit fish to remove it, and those fishes are not appropriate for a 54 gallon---besides that they kill the fish I really want to keep. That's my problem. But I will warn people that if you don't want to keep tangs and rabbits, you could get a problem started you can't stop. I've tried every other means of remediation, and it's just what it is.

What more worries me is the environment. Where you're situated, in Missouri, it's not so much an issue, because I don't think it can survive to get to the Gulf...though by my experience, even the Gulf's misfortunes couldn't stop it if it got there. It's banned in California. Imho, it should be banned in every state and country bordering an ocean.

If you followed the documentary Killer Algae, you've seen the situation in the Mediterranean, a sea which has been the support of surrounding nations for thousands of years. And one mistake by a lab released caulerpa into the Med. http://www.playandwatch.co.uk/play-2...ler-Algae.html It's a catastrophe.

It reproduces by runner, broken bit that roots, by spores, and apparently reproduces if diced into a soup. It's toxic, and most fish not just won't eat it, but can't eat it because of the toxicity.

So I stand by my statement: if caulerpa were the most efficient macro on the planet and cheato were only a third as effective, I would still recommend cheato over caulerpa.

[scubasteve06]

I just removed all caulerpa from my fuge. I took a cookie sheet and sprayed fresh water on it from the sink and got all the amphipods and one starfish that I could save. I also found two very small bristleworms that I have heard are good to have in a DSB in the refugium for breaking down waste. I left them in a cup with seawater in it as I am not sure if I should put them back in. Since these guys can't make it into my display tank should I put them back in the fuge or pitch them?

[Sk8r]

Bristleworms are fine in display or in fuge. I value them myself as more valuable than hermits or snails, and sometimes nearly as amusing as hermits.

[matt144]

First off I want to say thanks to Sk8r for starting this thread, I found it very informative. With that said I think I need some help...

I currently have a wet dry with bio balls on my very basic 65G reef tank. I cant really afford a fuge and dont have time to make a sump. Can anyone give me advice on how to make the best of what I have available.

Thanks

[Sk8r]

Can you describe the dimensions of your wet-dry? it may itself serve as a sump, or there may be something else we can suggest; there are inventive ways to modify a system. If you can post a photo of your system, or describe its layout, that would be helpful. Tell us how your tank connects to this wet-dry: is it a hang-on, or does water flow down to it, and where is your return pump? or is it an all-in-one? Brand name might help, so then we can find photos of it online.

[reef-luva]

I remember those days...

[scubasteve06]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Bristleworms are fine in display or in fuge. I value them myself as more valuable than hermits or snails, and sometimes nearly as amusing as hermits.

Well since it took you too long to answer I went ahead and put them back in the fuge JK Sk8r I value your opinion so I wanted to hear what you had to say before I x'nay'd them.

[scubasteve06]

Adding on what Sk8r said for matt it would be good for us to see a picture of your current set-up sump wise so we can offer some tips and ways to 'change over' your wet-dry. IMO any wet-dry can be turned into a sump/fuge. They have baffles just like a sump does in most cases and are the same exact shape and size as a sump/fuge would be under the stand. Now for those that have fuges that are separate from their sump this conversion method doesn't apply. A separate fuge is IMO a little better than a sump/fuge but when you have limited space and don't have a basement or dedicated fish room then a sump/fuge serves the same purpose and has the same benefits.

[Kfig7]

Originally Posted by Michael

I have noticed theres a lot of hassle in this forum these days, Good advice and threads posted by talented experienced reefers seem to get slated alot, heres my view, Bio-balls are fine for a glass box with a fish load, they are very good at converting ammonia through the stages to nitrate, thats where they become a problem, reef tanks with sensitive critters wont fair well with high and prolonged nitrate present, its a mistake to use bio-balls in reef aquaria, they cant and wont deal with nitrate, they are superb at dealing with fish waste but nitrate will become evident and will cause serious trouble in a reef, end of, period, theres nothing more to say.

I agree with the fact that people are getting hassled lately. To be honest its quite pathetic. Just because people have a difference of opinion or a different way of doing things doesnt mean they are wrong. Theres many ways of doing things that produce similar results. Whether it's an Ich debate, bio-ball debate or whatever. People have a right to their opinion and to share what works for them.

As for bio-balls, I know many people that still use them with great results. The key is to make sure they stay as clean as can be. More work of course but they still are quite effective.

[scubasteve06]

Yes people do have their right to an opinion, but this isn't the right sub-forum for debate. The debates on these topics take place in the advanced forum. Its not a good idea for new reefers just getting started in this hobby to be pointed toward a method that not very many incorporate into their systems. Also they would be really confused reading this particular thread. I think thats what myself and sk8r are and were trying to accomplish with this thread. If sk8r would of wanted a heated debate on this topic he'd of posted it in the advanced section. Like my post I posted at the top of this page explains it all. New hobbyist aren't going to want to take the time and all the maintenance it will take to be successful with a wet-dry and bio balls like completely vacuuming substrate, big 50% weekly water changes, and having a really big over sized skimmer doing all the waste processing. Their are much better, cheaper, easier, and newer ways to accomplish what we couldn't in the 80's. Refugiums, carbon dosing, carbon, gfo, and pellet reactors are some examples. The Berlin style system is IMHO the best and easiest maintenance free way to keep SPS, LPS, Nem's and other nitrate sensitive animals. After all the posts and first hand experiences presented in this thread I still can't believe people are making the case for bio-balls for a new hobbyist. It is not a good thing. When you see tanks that go months and sometimes even a year on cruise control without any type of water change or maintenance other than dosing and cleaning the skimmer's cup and neck you will not see bio-balls in their sump! It would not be possible with that type of system. Once again this is just my two cents and FWIW, but it just comes down to common sense. Which of the two would you rather have? Constant cleaning of media, substrate and big weekly water changes, or sitting back and actually enjoying your tank while letting nature do what it does in the ocean. When you can have your cake and eat it too it only makes sense to do what it takes to have it that way. Sorry again for the long winded post it just needs to not go without saying.

[Kfig7]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying scuba. This is definitely not the right forum for a debate. That being said, why doesn't someone just move the post or close it? Just makes no sense to hassle someone for doing things differently.

[scubasteve06]

In all respect to sk8r I would hate to see this thread get closed. It is a great post by a great reefer who wants to help the newer members out with getting started on the right track. I don't think we should let one rotten apple spoil the whole bunch!

[Sk8r]

Well, and we still need to solve the problem of the member who is trying to convert his tank from bioballs.

[scubasteve06]

Yes since he hasn't posted back yet about his set-up the only thing I can tell him to do is to remove them slowly over the course of a week per say, and that he should take a few pieces of live rock maybe even just one 7-10lb piece depending on the size of his sump and place it in the sump and build a corral out of lighting eggcrate to contain his chaeto that he could get from his LFS. Without seeing what he has now this is about the best I can tell him.

[Sk8r]

Let's just start a thread on conversion from bioballs to regular sump. That will mean people don't have to read through so much bad stuff.

[matt144]

Hey guys sorry it took so long to respond. My tank is a 65 corner overflow Marineland. The wet dry has no baffles. I have a mag 7 return pump in the sump. I also have a Coralife super skimmer 65 hanging on the sump. I replaced the bubble diffuser on the skimmer with a drilled plastic cup full of live rock. I will post pictures later today. I have to figure out how first

[scubasteve06]

Originally Posted by matt144

Hey guys sorry it took so long to respond. My tank is a 65 corner overflow Marineland. The wet dry has no baffles. I have a mag 7 return pump in the sump. I also have a Coralife super skimmer 65 hanging on the sump. I replaced the bubble diffuser on the skimmer with a drilled plastic cup full of live rock. I will post pictures later today. I have to figure out how first

Hey Matt can you copy and paste this into the other thread on removing bio-balls slowly?

[matt144]

Ya will do

[Hocky]

Opinions are always changing, that's for sure.

[Sk8r]

so does equipment. In the 80's, nobody but the elite had a skimmer or mh lighting, no T5's, no information on water stability (the mg/cal/alk balance) and no info on cleanup crews: bristleworms were assumed to be evil; and people wanted you to put one poor doomed fish into your tank to create a cycle. Vile. Vile. Vile.
My fish lived, however, to become a holy terror. I don't blame him for having been in a bad mood.