more tang arguments

[RedM3]

The definition of rearing is "to breed and raise" or "the developmental life phase from fertilization of eggs to adult."

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

[Angel*Fish]

You might find this thread interesting http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1886849

And then there's this handy how to article http://www.ehow.com/how_4550684_breed-yellow-tangs.html

http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/v...69d4e62dc93fe5

[cubsFAN]

I want to hear more about tank bred mini tangs and how people don't know anything about a company unless they work there. And I want a golden goose too... give it to me daddy... NOW!!!

[cubsFAN]

Not zee chocolate tang Augustus!!!

[Frogmanx82]

Originally Posted by Beaun

We keep them for our pleasure, but to do so, we should be providing the best possible homes for them. There is a difference between surviving and thriving; a large tang in a 55g is just surviving. The first question should be what fish are appropriate for my system, not what fish do I want.

Most tangs can't spawn in home aquarium because they are not large enough, yes. But that is usually because multiples of the same species are not usually housed together for aggression issues, and even if there is a pair the tank is usually not tall enough to facilitate spawning. I've seen tangs spawning at AMWs 20,000g reef. I believe it is 6' tall and they use all of it.

That's my point. No one has a tank big enough for a tang to be "happy" if you define happy as being able to live according to their instincts. It's an arbitrary line drawn then on the degree to which their natural behavior is acceptably curbed. Many people draw the line at swimming around and eating, free from disease. Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

[username in use]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

Im sorry, but that is a terrible reasoning. Stoning people was an acceptable punishment for adultery at one point. Tying women to stones to see if they would float was a reasonable test if a woman was a witch. Slavery was a reasonable way to run a farm.

To do something only because it is what has been accepted in the past is a sure way to never grow in any way. It is the mistakes of the people before us that can teach us about where we need to be going and what we need to be striving for, so that the people that come after us can learn from us and continue to improve and go to places that we didnt even think possible.

[albano]

Originally Posted by spoiled739

... but I do think that telling people they can;t put a tang in a tank that is 55 or bigger is wrong. If they want to do it let them, if it dies it is not your fault.

Originally Posted by Barfly

Originally Posted by RedM3

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

Originally Posted by TampaReefer79

Times about a gazillion after reading this thread...

Unfortunately, the people that don't get 'it', never will!

[Sk8r]

Stunted growth is a myth that has carried over from freshwater, and I'm doubting it works there, either. You can bonsai a tree by clipping its roots and limiting water, but bonsai'ing animals just doesn't work. Clip their tails or their ears, and they're still Great Danes. It was once believed (Lamarckian evolution) that if you cut the tails off generations of mice, they would become tailless mice: doesn't work. No bonsai'ed critters.

Over a number of generations you can breed for characteristics, but we've just demonstrated we don't breed these animals, let alone select their parentage.

Myth has big play in hobbies involving animals. I can name you some involving horses that aren't family-friendly; weren't true, anyway. As late as 1960, people believed that a pedigreed Persian having one litter of kittens with an alley tom meant she was no longer purebred and that all her subsequent kittens would have alley genes.

Same with 'grows only to fit the tank.' Look up the damage done by corseting and footbinding. Genetics will out, even if your fashion bends your bones. You still have a spleen: it's just slightly relocated behind your heart; or a heelbone: it's in that mass somewhere.There are x-rays on the web, but I don't give a link here, because most people would be too grossed out to think straight. In the case of fish and tanks, you'll find the fish in an undersized tank are almost always listed as 'fat and happy'...read: liver damage. Fat in the liver. Not a good thing.

[Beaun]

Originally Posted by RedM3

The definition of rearing is "to breed and raise" or "the developmental life phase from fertilization of eggs to adult."

Perhaps that particular website is improperly using the word, but no one here actually knows for sure unless they are running that company, so we can only take it from face value.

We aren't the ones who decided to use the term "captive raised" or reared, those selling the fish decided to use that term. Take up the semantics with tem, no need to get angry about it. However, I can tell you with great certainty that no company is currently producing any significant amount, if any at all, of captive bred tangs.

Here's another thread about the issue, with someone from C-Quest who did the captive raising of blue tangs.
http://www.reefs.org/forums/topic121910.html

I was the guy at C-Quest doing what we called "tank raised" blue tangs. They were caught at a very small size (under 1/2 inch in most cases and almost see through, a grey / clear color) in the Solomons and they shipped to C-Quest. We had to have food available constantly for them for the first couple of weeks and then moved to 4 times per day. It would take 4 to 6 months to get to a solid 4 inch medium size. Blue tangs were the most profitable thing that we were doing at C-Quest at the time.

We did not call them Tank Bred, that was reserved for fish that were hatched from eggs and raised. The blue tangs along with several other species of fish were Tank Raised from small post larval fish shipped in from the Solomons. We also did some of this in the Solomons and exported them but could not get enough interest in it to continue the project. The farmers are still doing some coral banded shrimp and blue lobsters this way but no fish anymore.

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

That's my point. No one has a tank big enough for a tang to be "happy" if you define happy as being able to live according to their instincts. It's an arbitrary line drawn then on the degree to which their natural behavior is acceptably curbed. Many people draw the line at swimming around and eating, free from disease. Stunted growth is entirely acceptable, always has been in this hobby.

It's not an arbitrary line, saying a fish should not be living in a tank that is not long enough to properly grow is anything but arbitrary. This hobby is about learning, respect, and providing the best care we can give. If you can't properly care for it, leave it at the store. I've never heard of severely stunted growth being acceptable, as it shouldn't.

[Angel*Fish]

Sk8r, exactly - the stunting has to come from some physical problem - picture humans who grow up with liver problems for example.

Originally Posted by Sk8r

As late as 1960, people believed that a pedigreed Persian having one litter of kittens with an alley tom meant she was no longer purebred and that all her subsequent kittens would have alley genes.

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard And that was the 1960's -- can you just imagine what it must have been like to live in the year 1100?

[RedM3]

Originally Posted by albano

Unfortunately, the people that don't get 'it', never will!

You'll note that in my original post on this thread, I was attempting to explain to the OP and the one or two who joined in exactly why everyone gets up in arms when people claim it is OK to put tangs in small tanks. Nowhere did I even remotely state that I agreed with putting 8 tangs in a 55g or anything even remotely close.

In fact, before I did research of my own or even knew of the wealth of knowledge on these and other forums, I took the LFS advice at face value and had a very, very short lived attempt at a yellow tang and regal tang in my 55. Since then, I've done research, seen the view points, and researched the theory behind it to agree with the general consensus on this forum.

Again, I was simply stating that it appears there is, in fact, some commercial attempt at tank bred tangs. Whether or not they are truly tank bred, or simply collected as juveniles in the wild then tank raised, it is left to be known only by those who have intimate knowledge of the workings of that particular business and/or supplier. If those with more industry knowledge and experience know that they aren't truly tank bred, they shouldn't be labeled as tank bred or tank reared.

[username in use]

nowhere have I seen them referred to as tank bred or tank reared. They have always been referred to as tank raised.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by username in use

nowhere have I seen them referred to as tank bred or tank reared. They have always been referred to as tank raised.

That site is clearly trying to give the impression they are tank bred.

"They are fully acclimated to aquarium life and much more hardy than wild collected specimens."

[Beaun]

Bluezoo is mixed on it; they label them as "Yellow Tang - Tank Raised", then in the description it reads "These Tank Raised Yellow Tangs have been reared in captivity and will accept readily available prepared foods. They are fully acclimated to aquarium life and much more hardy than wild collected specimens"

I've never accused bluezoo of having the most accurate information...

[Sk8r]

One of the biggest problems is that the advice to put a tang in a small tank generally goes to novice reefers---the experienced ones can't be conned---and there is the novice stuck with a situation. He hasn't the experience to tell that the fish caught wild in the wide ocean is throwing off panic signals left and right. He'll see the fish calm down and stay quieter, learning to exist in very limited circumstances. He'll see it grow---up to a point. He won't have the finance to get a longer tank...or a house with a big wall space---he won't always be able to trade the fish on.

I was so saddened by the post from a person who had the habit of 'trading on' fish...except the[I think it was the naso] tang.
'It just died'.

[nanojg]

Its your tank and your money, do what you want with it. Having tang(s) in a 55 gallon tank may work and it may not work, just like everything else.

Relatively speaking, I dont see the difference between a 6 foot tank and a 3 foot tank when talking about an animal that may roam for miles in the ocean.

[samdaman]

Originally Posted by nanojg

Its your tank and your money, do what you want with it. Having tang(s) in a 55 gallon tank may work and it may not work, just like everything else.

Relatively speaking, I dont see the difference between a 6 foot tank and a 3 foot tank when talking about an animal that may roam for miles in the ocean.

Thats like riding in the back seat of a Volkswagen and a Truck with a full cab in the back, theres a big difference in leg room. 3 feet swim room makes a lot of difference..

[Sk8r]

There isn't, if you crowd it up with rock: that's the other problem. That, say, 8 foot tank needs to have a 'run'. It's like getting certain breeds of dogs: certain ones don't do well if they can't rev up and go. A Peke can tootle, and is no racer, and if you take him walkies you'll come back carrying him half the distance; but a Lab---you do need to take walkies, and a greyhound---they need it badly. You sure don't lock any one of them in a puppy crate and never take them out.
So though I have a 54 g, it's a wedge. It does great for corals and for what I keep (gobies). But once you get into the 75's, there's a huge difference between a 75 wedge (thankfully rare, because it's soaked armpits during maintenance) and a 75 Long, which will support the smallest (peke-style) tangs adequately, but the 75 Corner won't.

When you design a tang tank, you need to clear adequate space for a straight-line run with no rock in the way where some grazing fish is going to be in the path, either. So you want about, maybe, 9" of clear sand or bottom between the rock and the glass, all the way along, with a nice space either to turn, or to come back behind: that's where you can use the extra gallonage. In my bow, I have rock all over, low, which helps my stupid astraeas get a grip, and provides places for corals; but in a tang reef, back that rock off and give them as much free-running room as you can.

[TampaReefer79]

Originally Posted by nanojg

Its your tank and your money, do what you want with it. Having tang(s) in a 55 gallon tank may work and it may not work, just like everything else.

Relatively speaking, I dont see the difference between a 6 foot tank and a 3 foot tank when talking about an animal that may roam for miles in the ocean.

Someone please just send me some infractions now. I can't take it anymore.

[Frogmanx82]

Personally, I only keep small fish that are more at home in a tank. I agree with nanojg. You put a fast swimming ocean shoaling fish in any size box in your house and it will have stunted growth and not exhibit natural behaviors. Your all living in glass houses and should think about the stones your throwing.

[Angel*Fish]

Huh? I don't even own a tang - I'm inclined to leave them in the ocean. But I'm going to speak up if someone one wants to put them in a 3 foot tank.

[TampaReefer79]

Originally Posted by Angel*Fish

Huh? I don't even own a tang - I'm inclined to leave them in the ocean. But I'm going to speak up if someone one wants to put them in a 3 foot tank.

Me either! lol My tank is dry in the garage.

[Sk8r]

I'm personally sorry that so many people have based their idea of what a tank should be from a cartoon movie about talking fish in a ten gallon tank. The idea is in their heads that the tank should be that packed, with 2 tangs and a clown, a puffer and maybe a Moorish Idol. It's right up there with pet unicorns, and I don't mean naso unicornis.

[TampaReefer79]

Originally Posted by TampaReefer79

Me either! lol My tank is dry in the garage.

But I did have one built as LARGE as possible to support the fish I knew I wanted to keep (tangs)...rather than sticking fish I wanted to keep in 'what I had'.






Does this make me better than anyone else? No, that's not what I'm getting at. Anyone with $2k can go buy a tank that's 8'x4'. My point is that this is RESPONSIBLE REEFKEEPING. If I know I want tangs, I go out and build them a house that will be more appropriate than a 55, 75, 120, etc etc.

There is a HUGE difference between a 55 gallon tank and a 500 gallon tank. Just because you paid for the fish doesn't mean you can abuse them how you see fit. I paid for my bulldog puppy, doesn't mean I can stuff him in my microwave and never let him out. (hypothetical - I have a cat) lol

[Angel*Fish]

^^^WoW!^^^

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I'm personally sorry that so many people have based their idea of what a tank should be from a cartoon movie about talking fish in a ten gallon tank. The idea is in their heads that the tank should be that packed, with 2 tangs and a clown, a puffer and maybe a Moorish Idol. It's right up there with pet unicorns, and I don't mean naso unicornis.

That IS sad, it's a cartoon for heaven's sake.