I am in serious trouble!!!

[awestruck]

Like you, I have a HORRIBLE LFS in my city. It's so bad that I drive an hour to a top rate store vs. 10 minutes to the one across town. When I first started they sold me a small puffer, small angel, and a smaller cowfish--all for a 29 gallon tank. OMG.

I did not know RC existed then even though I thought I had done research prior to beginning. My store also sold me a Seaclone skimmer, telling me it was the best one on the market. Again, OMG.

All of the above posts have given great advice/suggestions and I cannot think of a thing to add. However, to give you an idea of fish load, I have a 65g. tank which is 3' long and right now I have 1 fish, a Midas Blenny (my tank was fishless for a while). I added him about 45 days ago. I will only be adding two more fish to my tank, a Bangghi Cardinal and perhaps a small reef-safe wrasse (one that stays small). Even now, with just the blenny, I watch him use the entire tank to swim around in and he is only 3".

I'm really sorry you have had this beginning experience. Don't give up if you really love this hobby. Again, all of the advice is spot on. Use this mantra: S-L-O-W-L-Y. You'll bring it around although it's going to take a while, and that's ok. It's good that you found RC because there are some extremely knowledgable people on here. And, Bob Fenner and Julian Sprung are definitely experts. Good luck and don't feel alone because sadly, your experience, like mine, mimics many, many other newbies' experiences too.

[sslak]

Originally Posted by 125G Reefer

doesn't get any better than that. Oh, and it will take about 6 months for the parasite to die in the tank, eggs and all, without a host.

I think you mean 6 weeks...

[travis32]

First off, I can't imagine what you must have felt at this disaster. There's been a lot of criticism of what you did wrong, but really, you were just listening to what you thought was trusted advice!

Really, just a lack of knowledge is what killed your fish. You're innocent in this and please don't feel too discouraged. This is a tough situation to learn from, but the salt water hobby requires a LOT (then a LOT MORE) patience! Unfortunately, not many of us were built with patience.

First off, I think you can treat the tank for ich. Ich attack may or may not help. (Reviews are out whether it works or not, just anectdotal evidence to prove it does or doesn't work.....)

If you don't have any corals and no inverts, and it's a fish only tank, then, for goodness sakes, just treat with Hyposalinity in the main tank for 4-6 weeks. I'm doing Hypo right now on a tang with ich (my QT tank) in a 30 gallon tank, for the next 6 weeks. It has LIve rock in it (around 25 - 30 lbs) to help biological filtration. This is the second time I'm using Hypo with Live rock. and So far, I have very substantial evidence that the ammonia processing bacteria survives the transition to hypo. At least enough to maintain the bioload of 1-3 fish.

You don't have to catch the fish, you don't have to do anything but reduce your salinity. Do a search for instructions on how to do Hypo treament. It will rid your tank of ich, and treat the remaining fish at the same time!!!

I love the fact that I can use live rock to maintain the filter in my QT, you would just be doing it in your DT. I wouldn't suggest this method for future fish. As I assume you want snails eventually.

However, I even have a snail in my QT surviving the transition to hypo. How, I don't know, but, he's alive and eating algae.. (I missed him when I tried to pull all my snails out of the QT.)

So, I would highly reccomend using your Display tank to treat the fish, rather than pulling them and stressing them more...

Others may reccomend copper. If you choose a copper treatment, DO NOT EVER use your main tank. That's the only disclaimer I have.

Well, I'm really really sorry for your losses and hope you can recover from this!

[Sk8r]

No, don't treat the main tank, ever, ever, ever: things that kill the parasite will very likely kill or depress the bacteria you need to cycle waste. Withdraw all fish to qt, treat them with hyposalinity for 4 weeks, keep them under observation for 4 more weeks, and leave the tank fishless for a total of 8 weeks. 8 whole weeks. The parasite will die out without fish as part of its life cycle. Then your fish can be put back in.

[travis32]

sk8r, I politely disagree with your advice. I've done hypo with live rock twice now, and no repercussions. I tested ammonia ever two days, there was never any detected, and the fish never showed any signs of stress. I have a 5" marine betta that went through hypo with 2 other fish. And all lived.. With only 2 X 20% water changes in 6-8 weeks.

It was a heavy bio load, and I fed frozen shrimp daily (albeit lightly).

I agree that if there's snails, crabs, or other inverts in your tank, I wouldn't reccomend this treatment option at all. Hypo salinity kills inverts. (err it's supposed to..) Which is why it kills ich.

I guess I'm not seeing what the difference between my 30 gallon "QT" and what if it was my display Fish only tank? What difference would there be? It's just a tank, with a heater, some mechanical / biological filtration. whether it's a QT or DT Hyposalnity does the same things to both.

If there's a lot of snails or crabs, then forget using the display...

I was providing a short term, immediate alternative. Remember, if he sets up a QT, he's most likely going to have to cycle it for 4 weeks, that will not save his fish....

I've been there done this accidently as well. Setup a QT at the first sign of ich, the next day I threw the fish in, and didn't realize it needed to cycle, but it does. My fish barely survived the cycle with daily 10-20% water changes. I lost one fish due to the cycle in QT.

He needs to treat sooner than that, and hypo in the DT is probably the most immediate thing he can do, with the least stress to his fish. Please think about what impact setting a QT up tomorrow will do to the fish today.

[RedM3]

Originally Posted by W8lifts

WOW okay man only algae....Really LOL

Well would you care to back up your claim then? I don't know anything about UV sterilizers. On the "New to the Hobby" forum, chances are many of the people asking questions won't know either.

It is much more useful to explain why you might need a piece of equipment to help this situation than to just say "get it" and then laugh at someone when they provide a contrary viewpoint.

[MrTuskfish]

This thread has a dozen subjects now; but my quick .02 on UV and ich. UV will only kill what passes thru it; and even then, the flow rate has to be precise, the bulb the right wattage and age, and the sleeve needs constant cleaning. Like all ich treatments, UV will only kill the free swimming bugs. An ich treatment must have a 100% kill rate of the free swimming stage or it will just return. After an ich bug (not using the scientific terms, sorry) is in the fish and has gorged itself, it releases hundreds of new bugs that sit on the bottom (or coral,etc) until they become swimming. What are the chances of every one of these ich bugs being sucked into a properly working UV before finding a fish host to start the process all over? No chance. Now multiply this scenario by hundreds and you get an idea of why you need to kill 100% of the bugs. Only hypo or copper do that; IMO & IME. I even think UV is sometime actually dangerous; it gives folks who believe it will eliminate ich a false sense of security.

[breiter3]

Just a suggestion, stop using the stress coat in your tank. Regardless of well water, tap water, or the most desired RO/DI water, the chemicals in 'stress coat' will negatively effect your skimmers ability to produce skimate. They end up just throwing foam everywhere making a mess and not truly skimming the dissolved organics out of the water. That was my experience when I first started and made that mistake many years ago.

[Angel*Fish]

Originally Posted by travis32

I was providing a short term, immediate alternative. Remember, if he sets up a QT, he's most likely going to have to cycle it for 4 weeks, that will not save his fish....

I sure don't know enough to get into an argument about using hypo in the main tank, but a QT tank as most people mean it shouldn't be cycled. People use the term differently. I did have a tank I called a quarantine, but isolation/observation is what I meant.

[SushiGirl]

Yep, really. A UV sterilizer will kill anything that flows through it, including beneficial stuff, but not everything flows through it. Using one won't cure ich.

[jmchzn123]

Phew!..Overwhelmed I'm sure but breathe and relax. I ordered NEW AI Sol Blues a month ago and they still won't be here for another week or two and everyday I want to scream! I sent 50 emails to the poor slugs who sold them to me. So I understand the excitement of wanting to get the ball rolling. You made EVERY mistake imaginable but you made them perfectly!! So thats good. Attention to detail and enthusiasm don't always go hand in hand so slow down and pay attention. First of all how many books have you read on Salt water? Next....You are right when you cite the LFS as being a place for commerce not advice. RC has the most brilliant minds in the community.That said, you must be careful here as well. Back to ...How many books have you read on the subject? While you tank is cycling read a few books. Then when you come here you not only can ask smart questions but you will understand the answers. You will also be able to separate the good and bad advice. You also will NEVER be taken advantage of at the LFS. I walk in and break chops all the time. In all fairness they are trying to make a living. An educated consumer is their best customer. I won't get into the philosophy on how what they did to you works against them on every level. Most LFS just don't get it. There are some really good ones but it takes time to sort through them. OK so now your tank is cycled the nasties are gone and you read a book. BTW it can NOT be understated Ich is a living parasite that has a very definite life cycle. If not attached to a fish it dies off in a certain amont of time. If you don't wait it WILL attach and reinfect. ALWAYS QT. I bought a 12g Nano. Fill it w tank water then empty it when I'm done.
Its time to decide what kind of tank you want to keep. If done right SW fish can easily live 10 years or more so just as biology is important so to is husbandry. This means in a captive reef the smaller the tank the more important it is to stock fish that
(A) will not outgrow the tank in a year or two
(B) Will not eat each other.
(C) will thrive in the physical enviroment you create. Like certain Gobies need sand to dig and burrow. Anthias need at least a 125g tank , do better in schools and have special dietary needs. As do Tangs BTW.

Stress may be the biggest killer of Marine fish. Remember they are wild animals and your tank is in effect a cage.
There are 3 things I feel are non negotiable when it comes to SW. You will find there are a million ways to create a captive reef / FOWLR but there are some basic principles you cant escape no matter what. Keep in mind creating a natural enviroment is complex but there is plenty of equiptment to get the job done. If you want to just skip this little venture but want to feel like you're a reef keeper just light the BBQ grill and start burning cash and slam your hand in a door over and over again...lol....All the gear involved is where the opinions get confusing because there are so many choices. But if you read up on the subject you'll know whats right for you.

So here are the constants.
1) Water Purity - get an RO/DI unit and run every drop of water you put in the tank through it. Starting with pure water can save you soooooooo many issues it's not funny.

2) Light - get the best most powerful Light you can afford. If your running a FOWLR this is NOT as critical but judging by how quickly you jumped in to SW I bet you'll want a reef in 6 months. Then you will have to buy a better light for sure.

3) Get the best skimmer you can afford and shoot for one size up than what the manufacturer suggests.

Each one of these subjects are discussed ad infinitum on pages and pages of debates on which equiptment gets the job done. That should tell you how important these things are. There are so many sub catagories for everything you need to control.
for example Light. You can go MH or LED (the best) T5, Compacts or combinations of any of these. Each method has endless miles of debate on which is better has more PAR at what depths in which color spectrums. Then which spectrums are vital to keep what animals blah blah blah it goes no and in a lifetime we don't know everything. Its crazy.
So read, learn and love our endeavor. I don't call it a hobby because it's so complex and can be so expensive and involves so much passion and dedication its just not a hobby to me. It's great and rewarding. Its a religion have fun and of course Welcome.

[W8lifts]

research it

[tlc2005]

Thanks everyone. I haven't been able to get on here for awhile but all of your advice has been very helpful. I was able to save my yellow tang. I did a QT tank and put him in there and treated him with a new medicine that the great new store sold me~ yay! Since I have posted last, I have added 1-2 things per week.. no fish but now I have 3 pepermint shrimp, 1 snail, 1 crab (I cant remember what its called), 1 brittle starfish and another type of starfish. I didn't do well with the names but I'll get them! lol. Anyway, the algea is growing good although I am only letting it stay on the rocks and the back of the tank and for the time being..........I am very happy with my tank and everything in it. Again, thank you all for all of your help and advice, I really appreciate it.

[lisafoster]

Well I am glad to see things are looking up. I know my first 6 months of having a tank was very difficult too. It is especially hard when dealing with ich. I am glad to see your yellow tang is doing better and you found yourself a good lfs. This site is a greatresource anything I need to know I can search the forums for and hear experiences and opinions people have. Now that things are going smoother you will love this hobby.

[b85511]

Sorry for the lossed. Expensive lesson.

[sgwithee]

Dear TLC2005,

I feel for your loss. Let me make you feel a little better. In the early 90's I set up a 90gal FOWLER with my daughter. I did some things right, but many wrong. An LFS warned me that saltwater tanks are "really hard", so I bought some books first. I built the stand, sump, etc and finally cycled the tank with ammonia. This was a 90 gal tank with 1.5 inch space beneath 4 inches of sand (a Jaubert plenum) with a 20 gal Long for a sump. Then went out and bought two false percula clowns. OK so far. Then I ordered 90 #s of Tongan reef rock and picked it up at the airport. I scrubbed it off and dumped it in my display tank. That night, it was the most horrible disgusting mess. I rushed to get my skimmer set up and started skimming the crud. For the next couple of hours I had to dump the skimmer collecting cup every 10 to 15 mins. By bed time I had it down to where it would not overflow that night. Through it all, my 2 clowns survived. So, for any newbies looking for a hardy first fish, I would recommend the false percula because these two made it through the worst tank cycle you could ever imagine!

Over the next few years I added:
1 Coris Wrasse (Orange with Yellow tail)
1 Yellow Tang
1 Coral Beauty angel
1 Lemon Peel angel

(Warning here: I bought the Yellow Tang before the Lemon Peel. The Yellow Tang is much more agressive than a Lemon Peel and harrassed the Lemon Peel something wicked. I took a piece of white plastic lighting grill and put it in the middle of the tank to separate them. After a week when I removed it, everything was fine. It would have been smarter to buy the Lemon Peel before the tang)..

When the tank was several years old, I added a dragonet, but I obviously didn't have enough to keep him alive. At times I tried adding a piece of coral, but was never really successful with it despite adequate lighting (4-VHO bulbs). Then one early morning I saw this 2 foot long worm extending from one of my rocks. He saw my shadow and disappeared. (One of those things that come with live rock that you really don't want).

I kept looking for 1 more fish. Then one day I found a Scribbled Face Angel at one of my LFS. This was a gorgeous fish! So, I bought him and dumped him into my display tank. He was really beautiful. The next weekend I had the worst case of Ick you have ever seen. (Well, maybe you have seen it). Long story short, I lost every fish except my Coris Wrasse. I finally coppered the tank to make sure he survived.

At this point, the tank was 7 or 8 years old and those fish weren't just fish I had bought, they were pets. Many I had known and cared for for 6 or 7 years. So, I feel your pain. Things changed in my life, and I had to sell the house and move. I found a young man that had several smaller tanks and was trying to raise a reef. I gave him the tank (told him it had been coppered and would probably never work as a reef) with the restriction that he take good care of my Coris Wrasse.

Now, 10 years later I'm setting up a new tank and things are a little different. First its a 60gal with a 20sump and I have a 15 gal quarantine tank! Also, I bought an RO/DI unit. Previously I had used city water which, along with my 2 foot worm is probably why I couldn't get coral to grow. I set the QT tank up first and cycled with ammonia with 1/3 of my dry rock filling it up. I've started the DT on ammonia and in a week or so plan to buy my first 2 false perculas (tank raised of course) for my QT. To my mind, the best idea I've seen here for the QT is using a simple intank filter. When you don't have anything in the QT, it can be kept cycled in your sump, but beware if any of the QT'd fish had problems. You don't want to transfer the problem with the filter back to your DT.

At any rate, I wrote this so you don't feel quite so bad, it's happened to others before you, and so that hopefully some newbie out there will read it and learn from my mistakes. I did all my reading and my homework, but still made more than my fair share of mistakes. But then, I've learned from those mistakes, so all is not lost.

[kctango]

TLC2005 was wondering if you were still using well water on your tank, just remember if you or your neighbors use any chemicals on your grass it finds a way into your water supply.

I am glad that you have found a LFS that is good for the hobby and even though they are out to make money (got to keep the store open) they take care of who and what they sell making sure its right for you and your tank.

I never saw anyone address the changes of color of your fish to black when they died.

Though for you, Ammonia is a highly toxic chemical, and when it comes into contact with fishes' cells in high enough concentrations, it destroys or severely damages them, which is then considered an ammonia burn. This will immediately leave some reddening, commonly on the fins, where there is less of a slime coat for protection, and eventually turn black if the cells were damaged enough.
Ammonia is not a bacteria, nor is it an infection of any kind-- all medications will do for fish with ammonia burns is stress them even more. Also, "ammonia destroying" products are poor choices, as they can starve the bacteria in the filter, forcing you to re-cycle the tank-- a much better choice is a water change (just large enough to keep the ammonia levels under 1.0 ppm for your fish, preferably back to 0 ppm temporarily).

When your bioload was high your tank maybe recycled causing a spike in ammonia, just a food for though

[ticklem]

Wow definately beginer mistake here the fish probably caught ich because they were so stressed from the nitrites int he water. You have to wait for the full cycle to add your fish and adding that many at one time would cause a NEW cycle in itself.