How many years have you seen ICH come and go? - Page 3

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 01:35 PM

I did exactly what snorvich says for all of my fish they were all in QT for at least 8 weeks....Some of them were even treated with copper. The last addition to the tank the achilles hybrid was CLEAN the entire 8 weeks he was in QT. How can you explain that? The only explanation could be...either the tang had crypt in his gills the entire 8 weeks or my past treatments were not succesful. Keep in mind....When I first added my male crosshatch he had spots on his head.....Most people thought the spots were to big to be crypt. These spots went away and have had not seen a thing for the past 6 months....

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerfan1

wow,

thanks snorvich.

i guess i should disregard this from live aquari then huh?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/g...ral_pagesid=83

I think that you should do whatever you think is best.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

I did exactly what snorvich says for all of my fish they were all in QT for at least 8 weeks....Some of them were even treated with copper. The last addition to the tank the achilles hybrid was CLEAN the entire 8 weeks he was in QT. How can you explain that? The only explanation could be...either the tang had crypt in his gills the entire 8 weeks or my past treatments were not succesful. Keep in mind....When I first added my male crosshatch he had spots on his head.....Most people thought the spots were to big to be crypt. These spots went away and have had not seen a thing for the past 6 months....

Again, I don't intend to argue. The explanation is that the fish in your tank had developed resistance to MI (which can last about six months) and that the new fish had not.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 01:59 PM

For oodinium information, try: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Again, I don't intend to argue. The explanation is that the fish in your tank had developed resistance to MI (which can last about six months) and that the new fish had not.

Could be....I am not arguing at all....Just a healthy discussion.

That could be correct....OR it could be several other things....

What can last 6 months? The resistance to crypt, or the crypt?

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

Could be....I am not arguing at all....Just a healthy discussion.

That could be correct....OR it could be several other things....

What can last 6 months? The resistance to crypt, or the crypt?

Resistance to cryptocaryon.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 02:14 PM

So your saying that if a fish develops resistance to crypt...it only lasts 6 months then the fish will become infected??? Not following this logic. Were did this information come from?

steelerfan1 · 03/02/2011, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

I think that you should do whatever you think is best.

having 0 experience, i guess it will be a trial and error thing.

as a newbie, there is a mind blowing wealth of information to try to put together.

HEAD EXPLODE!

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerfan1

having 0 experience, i guess it will be a trial and error thing.

as a newbie, there is a mind blowing wealth of information to try to put together.

HEAD EXPLODE!

There is a great deal of information and opinnions around. As a newb do the best you can.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

So your saying that if a fish develops resistance to crypt...it only lasts 6 months then the fish will become infected??? Not following this logic. Were did this information come from?

Resistance period is not definitive, but it can last as little as six months. When the resistance is lost, it will not necessarily re-contract the parasite, but the odds are that it will. This is because fish with resistance prematurely cause a trophont to drop off the fish and darkness is the key to the parasite to drop. However, since fish tend to sleep in the same place every night, the odds of reinfection are high. But more relevantly, new fish introduced that are not resistant, will become infected.

My original bible was http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php but since reading that, I have done a large amount of literature review along with observations on my own aquaria. But I cannot say, at this point where I found which piece of information as it has been a long time since I researched this particular subject. You can use google and do your own reading and form your own opinions.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerfan1

having 0 experience, i guess it will be a trial and error thing.

as a newbie, there is a mind blowing wealth of information to try to put together.

HEAD EXPLODE!

The most important piece of information is always quarantine! There is no emoticon for head exploding. I would have already used it many times if there were.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

What can last 6 months? The resistance to crypt, or the crypt?

I forgot to answer your total question. As long as there are hosts, cryptocaryon irritans can continue to exist. If all of your fish have resistance, it will have no real effect on your fish at least as long as they are resistant.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 02:58 PM

That makes more sense to me. I understand crypt needs a host to survive. If the fish are immune would that be the same as resistant? I am only asking because I recall reading that a tank that remains crypt free for over a year is free of crypt....Not sure if I believe that but I do recall reading something along those lines. Based on the poll results so far it seems people have been living with crypt in their systems, without ill effects. Maybe its something healthy fish can live with. As stated earlier I am getting a scribbled angel next week that I will QT for at least 8 weeks. I will see what happens when he goes in the main tank. My early observation leads me to believe a healthy fish can fight off and survive with crypt. But also as stated earlier TIME WILL TELL....

steelerfan1 · 03/02/2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

The most important piece of information is always quarantine! There is no emoticon for head exploding. I would have already used it many times if there were.

well, at least i got that part right.

i have read far too many posts about people not and killing their whole tank, so for me not to take that advise is silly.

but it still comes down to the whole treat everything or observe which i guess like you said, read, re read and do what you feel is right.

thanks again for you help.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 03:03 PM

Look at me.....I thought I was doing everything right..

I was also told that if a fish has crypt it will be breathing rapidly and twitching its head a great deal. If you don't have those items your fish does not have crypt. What is your opinion on that?

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

That makes more sense to me. I understand crypt needs a host to survive. If the fish are immune would that be the same as resistant? I am only asking because I recall reading that a tank that remains crypt free for over a year is free of crypt....Not sure if I believe that but I do recall reading something along those lines.

I would tend to agree. Immunity and Resistance are related. A fish that is immune will never have the parasite attach but a fish that is resistant may have it attach, drop off prematurely with no effect on the fish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

Based on the poll results so far it seems people have been living with crypt in their systems, without ill effects. Maybe its something healthy fish can live with. As stated earlier I am getting a scribbled angel next week that I will QT for at least 8 weeks. I will see what happens when he goes in the main tank. My early observation leads me to believe a healthy fish can fight off and survive with crypt. But also as stated earlier TIME WILL TELL....

Well with your strategy, my recommendation is to feed multiple times per day with a diet high in HUFA. Use selcon, or equivalent (e.g. Vitality) soaks to all frozen food or food which can absorb it, and incorporate live black worms in your feeding protocol. I think that very healthy and well nourished fish can be virtually resistant. Keep in mind that new comers will not necessarily be in that same state of health and may show susceptibility. The most important part of quarantine for you is to build up that fish to the same level of health.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

Look at me.....I thought I was doing everything right..

I was also told that if a fish has crypt it will be breathing rapidly and twitching its head a great deal. If you don't have those items your fish does not have crypt. What is your opinion on that?

Twitching normally suggests flukes. Prazipro is a reef safe treatment for that. Read up on it.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 03:12 PM

Yes thank you. That is the way it was explained to me. That by Qting a fish you are building up there strenght to be able to fight off things. I will continue to feed the best I can and will look to incorporate blackworms into the diet. THe hard part is the Achilles Hybrid will only eat seaweed so far. I load him up with it but thats all he will eat. What is a diet high in HUFA?

steelerfan1 · 03/02/2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

Look at me.....I thought I was doing everything right..

I was also told that if a fish has crypt it will be breathing rapidly and twitching its head a great deal. If you don't have those items your fish does not have crypt. What is your opinion on that?

i know, that's what scares me rbu1,

i've seen a couple other people like yourself, who do everything text book and still have the issue.

that's why i since i don't know all the signs having not seen them in person that i will have to try treating after fish is eating and just bring levels up super slow and hope for the best.

good luck to you bud.

i hope you figure it out and thanks for starting the thread as i have gathered a lot of info from it.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Twitching normally suggests flukes. Prazipro is a reef safe treatment for that. Read up on it.

Agree, but what about the rapid breathing? Not a single fish in my tank shows any signs of rapid breathing.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 03:16 PM

HUFA is highly unsaturated fatty acids. Examples would be PE mysis, blackworms, etc. That is one of the reasons that Achilles are so difficult: diet. But tangs in general are more susceptible to cryptocaryon irritans as their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

HUFA is highly unsaturated fatty acids. Examples would be PE mysis, blackworms, etc. That is one of the reasons that Achilles are so difficult: diet. But tangs in general are more susceptible to cryptocaryon irritans as their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.

OK good PE Mysis is a good part of their diet. No local places sell the blackworms. I will have to order them online.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerfan1

i know, that's what scares me rbu1,

i've seen a couple other people like yourself, who do everything text book and still have the issue.

that's why i since i don't know all the signs having not seen them in person that i will have to try treating after fish is eating and just bring levels up super slow and hope for the best.

good luck to you bud.

i hope you figure it out and thanks for starting the thread as i have gathered a lot of info from it.

Yes, I know. Although I have learned much from reading, I have learned more from screwing up. We are not born aquarists knowing everything we should know and unfortunately there are many folks with advice that is not correct. Learn from your mistakes and don't just give up.

RBU1 · 03/02/2011, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerfan1

i know, that's what scares me rbu1,

i've seen a couple other people like yourself, who do everything text book and still have the issue.

that's why i since i don't know all the signs having not seen them in person that i will have to try treating after fish is eating and just bring levels up super slow and hope for the best.

good luck to you bud.

i hope you figure it out and thanks for starting the thread as i have gathered a lot of info from it.

No problem glad you got some info.

I guess you never know. What aggrevates the crap out of me is when I hear people that don't QT and have never had any problems. I QT and have an issue....Makes no sense. QT is always good even if you don't treat. I think a fish that has had time to fatten up in QT has a better chance of fighting of ailments.

Good Luck to you.

snorvich · 03/02/2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBU1

OK good PE Mysis is a good part of their diet. No local places sell the blackworms. I will have to order them online.

There is a thread by PaulB about worm keepers. I order online from eastern aquatics and feed worms for one feeding daily to all of my aquaria. Almost all of my fish go nuts for them. Building a worm keeper is easy and feeding via a turkey baster is a piece of cake.

View Poll Results: How many years have you seen ICH come and go in your reef?
less than a year	9	28.13%
over a year	9	28.13%
3 or more years	4	12.50%
5 or more years	4	12.50%
Dont bother counting	6	18.75%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

03/02/2011, 01:59 PM	#54
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	For oodinium information, try: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

03/02/2011, 03:16 PM	#71
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	HUFA is highly unsaturated fatty acids. Examples would be PE mysis, blackworms, etc. That is one of the reasons that Achilles are so difficult: diet. But tangs in general are more susceptible to cryptocaryon irritans as their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition. __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

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03/02/2011, 01:35 PM	#51
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	I did exactly what snorvich says for all of my fish they were all in QT for at least 8 weeks....Some of them were even treated with copper. The last addition to the tank the achilles hybrid was CLEAN the entire 8 weeks he was in QT. How can you explain that? The only explanation could be...either the tang had crypt in his gills the entire 8 weeks or my past treatments were not succesful. Keep in mind....When I first added my male crosshatch he had spots on his head.....Most people thought the spots were to big to be crypt. These spots went away and have had not seen a thing for the past 6 months....

03/02/2011, 02:14 PM	#57
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	So your saying that if a fish develops resistance to crypt...it only lasts 6 months then the fish will become infected??? Not following this logic. Were did this information come from?

03/02/2011, 02:58 PM	#63
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	That makes more sense to me. I understand crypt needs a host to survive. If the fish are immune would that be the same as resistant? I am only asking because I recall reading that a tank that remains crypt free for over a year is free of crypt....Not sure if I believe that but I do recall reading something along those lines. Based on the poll results so far it seems people have been living with crypt in their systems, without ill effects. Maybe its something healthy fish can live with. As stated earlier I am getting a scribbled angel next week that I will QT for at least 8 weeks. I will see what happens when he goes in the main tank. My early observation leads me to believe a healthy fish can fight off and survive with crypt. But also as stated earlier TIME WILL TELL....

03/02/2011, 03:03 PM	#65
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	Look at me.....I thought I was doing everything right.. I was also told that if a fish has crypt it will be breathing rapidly and twitching its head a great deal. If you don't have those items your fish does not have crypt. What is your opinion on that?

03/02/2011, 03:12 PM	#68
RBU1 Moving on Up Join Date: May 2004 Location: Southern NJ Posts: 5,167	Yes thank you. That is the way it was explained to me. That by Qting a fish you are building up there strenght to be able to fight off things. I will continue to feed the best I can and will look to incorporate blackworms into the diet. THe hard part is the Achilles Hybrid will only eat seaweed so far. I load him up with it but thats all he will eat. What is a diet high in HUFA?