Our Hobby is wiping out the reefs

[camaroracer214]

I often try to avoid debates on forums about these topics because everyone has their own opinion, but I couldn't stay out of this one unfortunately.
I've been following this issue very closely and have gone to great lengths to cover it on the blog I operate. From my own research and talks with individuals in the aquarium industry, I can tell you without any doubt that aquarium collection in Hawaii is sustainable. If you don't believe me, just take a look at the statistics provided by Hawaii's own Division of Aquatic Resources. Their data indicates that yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens) populations, among others, are on the rise. This is due in part by marine protected areas, fish recovery areas, and other parts of the island chain that are off limits to aquarium collection, but the point is that the numbers are increasing despite increased collecting.

As for the Snorkel Bob and Forthefishes folks, they are flat out liars and hypocrites. They twist data and blatatly misuse it to make their case. This has been documented as well, and is a big reason the HawaiiBanFactCheck website even exists. Think about it, an entire website has been dedicated to just proving their points wrong...that's how bad it is. Additionally, if they truly cared about reef fish conservation, then why don't they go after other man-made sources of reef destruction, e.g. tourism, commercial/recreational fishing, etc? Also, why do they shoot down anything involving aquaculture? The answer is that they truly don't care about fish conservation by itself. They want to preserve the tourism industry, thereby lining their own pockets, and want to ban the aquarium trade.

In regards to the aquarium industry taking juvenile fish, anyone with a little background in biology or ecology will tell you removing juveniles is actually a far more responsible practice than removing adults. For starters, the fish being removed are not yet part of the gene pool/reproductive population because they haven't reached sexual maturity. Adult fish, on the other hand, have far greater reproductive value...especially large, mature females. As a female fish matures, it's fecundity increases. Fecundity, in a nutshell, is both a female's ability to lay eggs and the quality of those eggs. Older females produce more eggs that are larger and more viable than younger females. With that in mind, fishing practices that take more mature fish are far more damaging. These practices include commercial fishing, recreational fishing, fishing for food, etc.

Addressing the comment about statistics versus real life observation, I've been to Hawaii (Maui more specifically) and I've been in the waters around popular tourist spots and those more secluded. I'm obviously not a local, but by diving in the same area multiple times during a week-long trip, it's very obvious that fish numbers any given area fluctuate wildly from day to day. On some days you might see an abundance of fish and others you might not see any. And the fact that many of these fish swim together in small schools just reinforces my point. Some of the independent data collection (I'm specifically referencing Dr. Gail Grabowsky) has come from single day trips to specific areas. You can't get good data from one day's worth of data, but they don't mind running with that data.

I know the anti-aquarium folks don't give a crap about one thing I have to say because they have already formed their opinions, but if you are uninformed/undecided, don't fall into the traps they lay out there. Their statistics are not only bogus, but wildly deceptive and they are attacking us from a moral and financial argument, ignoring any common sense in the process.

[Dustin1300]

First off, I'd say that a thread like this you need to realize that everyone has there own opinion and you debate with the most factual and non-biased information available. So far in the thread you've posted reports to two biased opinions with one being on the far left and the other on far right!

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

1. Statistics is pure science therefore the numbers cannot be "fictitious". Data are collected, tested and interpreted for explaining trends. It is how the numbers are presented that makes the difference.

I cannot agree with this statement. I would agree that stating it is 'fictitious' is not accurate.....But would say that statistics are skewed 99% of the time to push whatever point the researcher's opinion aligns with. We can all say we don't have biased opinions but we are all flawed

My opinion:
The industry is evolving and would agree years ago that the impact could have been more significant but not to that of other industry. If you feel our hobby is wrecking the environment and that's your agenda, then your best statement would be to stop keeping an aquarium. I do my part by fragging as much as possible and just buying aquacultured frags. As far as fish, I try to buy captive bred fish but that is not always the option....and in that case I always check source to ensure they are a reputable company obtaining the fish in a responsible manner. If they don't act responsibly they don't deserve my money.

If you're a large advocate of the environment then instead of attacking the industry, look to ensure you buy properly and that you educate as many as possible to ensure they support the 'good guys'!

[xdannyxrocksx]

I saw the title of this thread and this is what I felt..


There are more problems out there that our hobby with the destroying our reefs. Commerical fishing, alot of pollution, alot of tourist attractions. Our hobby is helping. ORA is a great example of this they have succesfully cultered many species of coral and breed many fish. Get the facts straight. I am no expert on this topic, it just very frustration to see people make false accusations and ridiculous numbers/facts out there.

[xdannyxrocksx]

Enjoy

Removed. Please do not link videos that have vulgarities. BrianD

[macman7010]

I am not anti-aquariums. That would be tough, I have not only owned aquariums since I was a kid I write for several aquarium related publications. It is hard to believe that human beings meddling with any ecosystem results in zero effects. I agree that commercial fishing, long line fishing in nations that allow it (illegally as well) and other very destructive practices have damaged both coral reefs and fish populations far more than collecting for marine aquariums.

To try to convince ourselves that any action that takes from the environment without replacing what it has taken is simply living under a rock. Perhaps the marine aquarium hobby has inspired enough people to take interest in the ocean and its inhabitants, maybe work towards saving them. Although, I must wonder if the worldwide oceanic collapse the is predicted by experts in roughly 50 years takes place - will those people who wanted to discuss this issue and maybe propose solutions to help save oceanic ecosystems still be told, "they were beating a dead horse to death." Or will they now be told they are beating a dead ocean to death.

[macman7010]

As for the video dannyxrocks posted, over the years as a Dive Master and Underwater Photography instructor on many different islands and destinations I have seen some outright poor dive practices. This can be blamed on a variety of different variables. I blame the initial instructor in most cases or the single divers lack of caring. Beautiful Oceans Academy of Montreal teaches a variety of coral reef biology/ecology courses as well as Conservation Minded Diving. If I had my way it would be a requirement to become a PADI of NAUI certified open water diver.

[T Diddy]

Oh good grief. I just deleted a bunch of thoughts on the subject because this is just another non-issue. Apparently noone bothered to read the findings, published and issued to Hawaiian congress by the Hawaiian DLNR/DAR I posted. If anyone here on RC truly believes that the aquarium trade has a relative significant impact on the reefs of the world, they are either misinformed, undereducated, or are trolls. Either way, I hope for your sake that you don't own an aquarium, as that would make YOU the hypocrite in all of this nonsense. Forgive my bluntness. The intent is not to be abrasive, but sometimes the truth hurts.

The reef keeping culture as a whole has done more to preserve the natural resources it uses than any other group IMHO (outside of the US forestry service). Places like Hawaii have got it figured out. Designate an area for hunting, and an area for preservation, and perhaps in the future, an area for repopulation with corals from people like us. When the hunted areas are depleted, the price of the fish/coral from that region goes up (as do the fines associated with the preserve locations). If a yellow tang cost $200/ pop, it wouldn't be considered a "starter fish" by your LFS...not that it matters because the yellow tang population numbers in Hawaii are on the rise thanks the the afformentioned sustainability measures put into place in the 1990s by the state of Hawaii.

Our concern as hobbyists is merely to keep some coastal villager from destroying his own natural resources in hopes of earning the equivalent of a #1 combo each week to feed his family, or to keep some tourist embacile from donning SCUBA gear and destroying the reef like a true weekend warrior. Keep in mind the relatively minimal impact the aquarium hobby has (if it is even relavent) in comparison to grossly destructive practices used to harvest coral for building materials, pharmaceuticals, and coffe table/beach house decorations. If you found your way to this thread because of a legitimate concern for the worlds oceans and our impacts (as hobbyists) on them, by all means, educate yourself and others...if not, don't bother posting.



and did I mention that I am IBTL?

[OceanDweller]

I think differently about this hobby, I think it might actually end up doing more good in the long run "minus calurpa and Lionfish" to the reef systems. If rare corals can be bred and propagated in captivity while wild reefs are decimated, then in the future you might be able to have programs that help rehabilitate wild reefs, like donate a frag etc.

[macman7010]

I believe that private aquarists and their reef aquariums can easily be sustained. The multiple steps taken in private aquaculture methods are proving that. The list of captive raised fish grows, (while slowly) and coral fragging has resulted in an immense release of pressure from natural reef ecosystems. My point was simple. Years ago this argument was never up for debate. There was not a press release from SSCS or The American Humane Society regarding marine aquariums. Today there is. So I asked myself a simple question what has changed from years before? Well a lot - most of the changes are better technology, methodology and aquarium systems designed to house sensitive animals. Those changes are not why we are seeing press releases from the American Humane Society or SSCS and others.

The negative downturn is the current FAD the super rich (millionaires and billionaires) have turned the marine or reef aquarium into. Just watch Tanked. Do you thing we would even be having this conversation - or the state of Hawaii would have even entered into discussions about banning capture for marine aquariums is a wealthy CEO didn't place over 500+ Yellow Tangs into his aquarium, watch them die, then throw them out. Likely not.

However, I did read some good information from J. Charles Delbeek regarding a rise in Yellow Tang populations in Hawaii. I consider Delbeek a valuable source of information in this regard and I have reviewed the Hawaii report. The reality if those with unlimited financial resources continue to misuse ecological resources to create a dream aquarium and watch it fail and simply replace dead live stock, I assume regulation will be enacted to control their irresponsible behavior.

[T Diddy]

Originally Posted by macman7010

I believe that private aquarists and their reef aquariums can easily be sustained. The multiple steps taken in private aquaculture methods are proving that. The list of captive raised fish grows, (while slowly) and coral fragging has resulted in an immense release of pressure from natural reef ecosystems. My point was simple. Years ago this argument was never up for debate. There was not a press release from SSCS or The American Humane Society regarding marine aquariums. Today there is. So I asked myself a simple question what has changed from years before? Well a lot - most of the changes are better technology, methodology and aquarium systems designed to house sensitive animals. Those changes are not why we are seeing press releases from the American Humane Society or SSCS and others.

The negative downturn is the current FAD the super rich (millionaires and billionaires) have turned the marine or reef aquarium into. Just watch Tanked. Do you thing we would even be having this conversation - or the state of Hawaii would have even entered into discussions about banning capture for marine aquariums is a wealthy CEO didn't place over 500+ Yellow Tangs into his aquarium, watch them die, then throw them out. Likely not.

However, I did read some good information from J. Charles Delbeek regarding a rise in Yellow Tang populations in Hawaii. I consider Delbeek a valuable source of information in this regard and I have reviewed the Hawaii report. The reality if those with unlimited financial resources continue to misuse ecological resources to create a dream aquarium and watch it fail and simply replace dead live stock, I assume regulation will be enacted to control their irresponsible behavior.

...well, I suppose it is a good thing that the rich are increasingly fewer in number.

[Saadatski]

Sorry to maybe point out the obvious, but i hope everyone understands it is an entire ECOTSYSTEM...

As much as humans have on the impact of other ecosystems (like forests, the arctic etc), i think that it is almost impossible for a few people to deciminate an entire natural system. We are talking about one of the most diverse, most densely populated part of the planet.

Coral Reefs hold most of the life in the ocean, and the ocean makes up most of our earth. If one were to believe that there is a large impact just by taking a FEW fish and coral, then they are kind of stupid, for lack of a better word.

Im not in denial, but i studied these things in Marine Bio, and if you can imagine the vast size of just a single reef, it is phenomenal. Now picture how many of those reefs there are in the world, from Fiji to Australia to the Red Sea. Now picture how many people own an aquarium and think about how much they could possibly impact the ocean. If people were to literally own the amount of a reef as their tank size, every aquariest would not possibly hold a distinct portion of just ONE reef.

[seapug]

Originally Posted by tang named junkyard

Does anyone here dare challenge that less than 5 percent of the species collected last more than one year? The humane society says 1 percent survive more than a year so I added some cushion .

http://www.forthefishes.org/Aquarium_Trade_Impacts.html

And the ones collected for food and sold for $4.50/lb don't live 20 minutes once tossed in a cooler of ice, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not the aquarium trade is responsible for "ruining the reefs." The data collected by the the Hawaiian state fisheries shows that the populations most popular fish collected for the aquarium trade (yellow tangs) are actually increasing. Hawaii is a model for a sustainable, well managed aquarium collection trade.

[macman7010]

I would agree with Seapug that Hawaii is a good model for sustainable reef fish collection. Some of the crude things that have taken place on small South Pacific islands would amaze many. Though, I would encourage folks to learn about what Pacific East Aquaculture has set up in the Solomon Islands.

[cichlidtsai]

I was blamed by my brother for hurting the ocean when I started my first salt water tank.
Did it anyway...

[Agu]

I don't want to sound self righteous but 4 of my 5 fish are captive bred and 80% of my corals are captive propagated. Rather than argue about statistics why not just make our own little contributions to relieving pressure on natural reefs ?

[Misled]

Originally Posted by Agu

I don't want to sound self righteous but 4 of my 5 fish are captive bred and 80% of my corals are captive propagated. Rather than argue about statistics why not just make our own little contributions to relieving pressure on natural reefs ?

Here here!!!!!

[Reefer33]

Well lucky for us, a few vendors are starting to carry captive raised (different than captive bred) marine fish such as regal and yellow tangs which tend to be much hardier than their complete wild counter parts in our home aquaria.

For those of you who are wondering what the differences between a captive raised and captive bred, a captive bred fish is just that, a completely raised fish in captivity from captive bred adults, think Clownfish, cardinals, etc. A captive raised fish differs in that the spawn of Tangs are collected from the wild then raised from eggs to a selling size, hence the name captive raised fish. Since these captive raised fish spend most of their entire life from a egg to a selling size they tend to be much more hardy in our aquariums. Some might argue that collecting the spawn from these fish might be detrimental, but remember out of the millions of eggs these fish release some like 1% survive to adulthood? Is this ideal? Maybe not quite perfectly ideal, but I sure would argue it's definitely a step in the right direction! Just my .02

[macman7010]

Reefer33 I am not aware of any captive raising programs in the sense that you have posted taking place. Do you have a link regarding this as it would make for an interesting article. I was under the impression that Tangs went through such a long larval stage (where they were entirely microscopic) that raising them in captivity as you described was nearly impossible.

I also agree with Agu we can all make tremendous contributions. That's why I love breeding Clownfish - you can make sure that aquarists have awesome Clownfish that never touched the ocean and are far hardier than wild caught counterparts.

[Reefer33]

Reefer33 I am not aware of any captive raising programs in the sense that you have posted taking place. Do you have a link regarding this as it would make for an interesting article. I was under the impression that Tangs went through such a long larval stage (where they were entirely microscopic) that raising them in captivity as you described was nearly impossible.

It's actually from the larval stage, sorry I think I said from the egg stage. Attached is a place selling "captive raised" Regal Tangs. The link explains a little about what I'm talking about...hopefully I don't get dinged for including this link as it's a commercial site. Looks like the place doing this is called Sustainable Aquatics out of Tennessee, so major props to them. Also I'm aware they are doing this with Yellow Tangs. Like I said is it completely the most ideal situation? No, but I definitely think it's a step in the right direction

http://www.saltyunderground.com/prod...5815d8bf07b64a

[JustinReef]

Originally Posted by T Diddy

of the ones that are eaten by the locals, I'd say zero percent last more than a day. As for the hobby, it is almost impossible to determine the avg. lifespan, and/or the mortality rate for any given timeframe. As I said, the data that I would choose to regard as "accurate" would come from Hawaii's own DNR...not from the humanesociety or "forthefishes" (which has an inherent and obvious agenda).

I didn't bother to read past this comment and don't even like to get involved in these debates BUT, this is a really bad comparison. I get where your going with this but people catching fish for food is much different from people catching fish for aquariums. One is survival and one is selfish. Of course accurate data is not available but we all know that a big majority of fish that end up in aquariums do not have a very long lifespan.

I have no opinion on the issue either way as I just don't know the facts well enough but as of my newest aquarium (6 months ago) I only buy captive bred fish and coral (I do have some coral that is most likely wild colonies because I have had them for many years now but nothing "new"). Just a personal choice. I hope the people backing the side of "the aquarium industry is destroying the oceans" don't have yellow tangs in their own tanks!

[Humuhumunuku]

Statistics are a funny thing. Give a skilled statistician a pile of data and it can easily be manipulated to prove either side. Decisions about these statistics can only be made with transparency of the methods and sources used to collect and interpret them. One must take notice that these lovely articles largely fail to provide a citation for any of their numbers apart form anecdotal evidence.

I can’t speak on fish populations in Hawaii as I have no base line to compare to what I have seen, but I can speak for those in California, I have spent the last few years doing hundreds of survey dives up and down the coast counting and size estimating (very accurate with the proper training) fish as well as macro invertebrates and algae species. On any given day, you have no idea what you might find at any given survey site. There are so many confounding variables people fail to account for. Was it unusually sunny on this day? An odd swell or current? Were there natural predators about, unbeknownst to us? Do yellow tanks hide on Tuesdays? A single dive or even a few dozens can not be used to judge populations.

It takes us several months with over a dozen divers doing up to 20 dives a week to do our annual survey, and even then, we can tell you very little visually. Once the data has been properly compiled and examined, then something meaningful may be found.

On a more personal month, I recently traveled to Kauai (home island of Snorkel Bob) and I noticed two things. 1) Lots of fish, no idea if it was more or less than normal, but there were fish. 2) Terribly damaged coral. This stuff doesn’t move, it had obviously taken a serious beating from divers/snorkelers abusing it over the years. Broken tips, overturned coral heads and rocks, and I personally witnessed the divemaster scrape a flashlight along a coral while not paying attention. So who is really at fault here?

[T Diddy]

Originally Posted by JustinReef

I didn't bother to read past this comment... majority of fish that end up in aquariums do not have a very long lifespan.

noted, but they still live longer than the "bycatch" of your average trawler.

I only buy captive bred fish and coral (I do have some coral that is most likely wild colonies because I have had them for many years now but nothing "new"). Just a personal choice. I hope the people backing the side of "the aquarium industry is destroying the oceans" don't have yellow tangs in their own tanks!

You and I are on the same track. Buying captive raised/ bred fish & coral is what it will take to "save the reef", ultimately. I was thinking the exact same thing before I read your post, and you are to be commended for that choice. I would encourage any growth in that segment of our hobby...most don't even know it exists (fish, specifically).

[Waterobert]

I don't feel guilty!
My purple and chevron tang have been living happily in my 91 gallon reef tank since 2001. I also only buy frags, so I don't take any corals from reef.
I believe that aquarium industry is preserving fish and corals from certain death of oceans in 50-100 years. Thanks to people like us our grandchildren will be able to see living corals.

[chriso316]

Looks like a nice dinner!

[tang named junkyard]

Good thread on survival of reef fish
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...+hobby+killing