nitrate problems in a 75g reef - Page 3

reeftivo · 08/25/2016, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sil40sx

another +1 here for red sea no3/po4x,. Works great, i only dose for 2 weeks (maybe a little less). I forgot the numbers, but it was a huge difference.

+2

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 05:17 PM

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Keelo · 08/25/2016, 05:22 PM

can you guys give me some insight into red sea no3 po4 ? it seems like a vinegar and vodka hybrid. reeftivo what images would you like to see of the skimmer ?

reeftivo · 08/25/2016, 05:30 PM

no3po4x
http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-...gram/no3po4-x/

while the skimmer is running and has been for a while, take a pic of as much of the milked out chamber (top to bottom). Looking for a line in there where the turbulent bubbles transition into the slower uniform rise.

Pagey · 08/25/2016, 06:30 PM

G'day Keelo.
So I had nitrate problems also. Using a Salifert test kit I took my Nitrate from 50ppm+ down to 0-2.5ppm in about 3 weeks with zero water changes. My problem was not Nitrate at all! My problem was Phosphate!!
I am not sure why but my tank tends to be Phosphate limited. For bacteria to consume Nitrate there needs to be some Phosphate present.
So I actually started to DOSE PHOSPHATE!! (Seachem Phosphorus designed for planted tanks which is 4500ppm PO4 I believe) I know I know... Crazy right? But it worked and it worked WELL.
I calculated that for 50ppm nitrate to be consumed I had to reach 3.125ppm Phosphate based on Redfield's ratio.
I can tell you I certainly did not go out and dose up 3.125ppm Phosphate but what I did do is dose up to 0.40ppm phosphate and I sat back and watched. I was worried that the Phosphate would just sit there like the Nitrate was doing but no, the Phosphate got eaten up really quickly. No measureable reduction in Nitrate though. So I became more confident and begun dosing Phosphate with a more heavy hand.
I can't recall exactly how much Phosphate I dosed but I do remember it was more than what I calculated I would need by a fair margin, possibly double but it all got eaten up and my Nitrates came tumbling down. I'd bring Phos up to 0.3-0.4 and wait until it was back to undetectable (Hanna ULR Phosphorus).
My system specs as follows.
Vol 400Gal
Gyre 150 and about 2000Gal/hr of turnover from a 3000Gal/hr return pump keeps most things in suspension.
All gets caught by a felt filter sock
Goes through a bio pellet reactor and that effluent gets shot out directly into the intake of my HEAVILY UNDERATED skimmer Deltec SC 1455 (for tanks up to 200Gal)
I have a hefty oolite sand bed because I am a fan of the natural system look and I have a very modest amount of live rock.

I think the point is that I only changed one thing, I measured and began dosing Phosphate. To this day I do not run any Phos removal media and my tank continues to dry up the Phos faster than the Nitrate... Why I have no idea but after reading your thread I can't see anywhere you have tested Phosphate, it may be something for you to look at. I don't think it comes up anywhere nearly enough in the Nitrate reduction discussion.

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 08:21 PM

okay reeftivo let me take some pictures of the skimmer for you, ill try to get as much as i can ! couple quick questions for those that have dosed the no3 po4, once the dosing regime starts do i have to cut back for a maintenance dose and keep it there forever ? or do you guys use it periodically to cut nitrates down? ive been a bit hesitant to dose a carbon source to the system because of the cyano stories i have heard. Does the no3 po4 create any algae for you guys?

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 08:25 PM

hey pagey, im wondering if that may be the case i did a test a for phosphates a couple of days ago and i did have some but they were low. In my system i dont run carbon or GFO so the phosphate levels are " all natural" i guess. is there a adverse relation with nitrate and phosphate? let me run a test and post it on here

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 09:14 PM

To me the phosphates look like they are at .25ppm and under
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reeftivo · 08/25/2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelo

okay reeftivo let me take some pictures of the skimmer for you, ill try to get as much as i can ! couple quick questions for those that have dosed the no3 po4, once the dosing regime starts do i have to cut back for a maintenance dose and keep it there forever ? or do you guys use it periodically to cut nitrates down? ive been a bit hesitant to dose a carbon source to the system because of the cyano stories i have heard. Does the no3 po4 create any algae for you guys?

Don't need to dose forever. You can use it until you're below 5 and run a maintenance dose if no3 rises above 5. BTW, I started no3po4x primarily due to cyano and it was gone in a week. Of course more flow and more attention to maintenance (wc's etc.) helps. But it was only when I started the nopox, did I then see the cyano startt to fade.
Get those skimmer pics

Xxero · 08/25/2016, 09:34 PM

The small water changes don't do anything in the battle. Why? I have no clue, to be honest with you...but they don't.

If your Nitrates are at 40ppm this morning, you could change out 20 gallons and your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm. Tomorrow you could change out another 20 gallons, and your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm. The day after that, go ahead and change out another 30 gallons, and I have $500 that says your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm.

It's going to come down to patience or war:

PATIENCE - Stay the course with routine partial water changes; keep your equipment/system as clean as possible; maybe go ahead and begin carbon dosing with NoPox or vinegar or vodka; maybe try the phosphate increase and see if that helps. This path will methodically chip away at the Nitrates, and you will eventually see a decline. This may take a couple of weeks.....this may take up to 6 months or more.

WAR! - BIG water changes, man! I capitalize the word "Nitrate" because I have a huge respect for them now. Tough little boogers they are. 20 gallons here and 30 gallons there is like throwing rocks at them, and they are laughing at you. You have to nuke them, plain and simple, with BIG water changes. If you don't want to send in Big Boy like I did with a series of large water changes equaling to a 100% water change over a couple of hours, then I would suggest no less than two to three 50% or more water changes over the course of a few days. Anything less does nothing if you're wanting to see an immediate reduction. You saw this for yourself when they dropped down to 20ppm after that one big water change, and now they have bounced right back up.

I'm only telling you this to save you some water, salt, and time. Patience or war? Now do you see how this can get personal?

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 09:42 PM

Haha yes Xxero I know this can get intense. I'm thinking I'm gonna start dosing no3 po4 and wait it out maybe get a dosing pump and begin dosing. Sometimes I just wonder how the hell do people have nitrates at 0ppm, much respect to those people as I see no end in sight to removing these bastards!

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Keelo · 08/25/2016, 09:44 PM

Reeftivo how much would you say a bottle of no3 po4 last ? It's a bit pricey for something to dose compared to vinegar.

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bertoni · 08/25/2016, 10:34 PM

All organisms require fixed nitrogen and phosphorus to grow, so a system that has a fair amount of nitrate but very little phosphorus can be an issue. That phosphate level (0.25 ppm) is high, though, so I don't think phosphate dosing is going to help.

The Red Sea NO3:PO4-X product is fine, but here's a recipe for a DIY version:
375 ml 80 proof vodka
500 ml vinegar (5% acetic acid)
125 ml RO/DI water

Water changes tend not to help with many nitrate problems because many tanks can generate nitrate rapidly. This system just looks like it's getting too much food for the filtration.

Keelo · 08/25/2016, 10:46 PM

Thanks for DIY recipe bertoni I'm definitely gonna have to give it a look would I just follow the instructions of Red Sea's product ?

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Keelo · 08/25/2016, 10:53 PM

I'm thinking of tracking my nitrates and seeing how much they grow. I think if they grow over or more like the test come out worse in a couple of days then I definitely have something brewing up nitrates in my tank! Bertoni if the nitrates were to stay at 40 -50 ppm or same color according to the test then it would be safe to assume that I might of just had some die off a couple of weeks back, right ?

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Keelo · 08/25/2016, 11:22 PM

Does anyone know of a way to automate the dosing without a dosing pump? I'm about to start school and I can barely afford my crazy tuition cost. Or does anyone have a dosing pump for sale or know of someone that sales one

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reeftivo · 08/25/2016, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelo

Reeftivo how much would you say a bottle of no3 po4 last ? It's a bit pricey for something to dose compared to vinegar.

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A liter bottle for 25 to 27 bucks would last you many months.

sil40sx · 08/26/2016, 12:11 AM

If you'll be around Bell Gardens around night time on weekdays, I can give you some. I bought one, and probably used just 1/8th. Bring a clean 80-100 ml bottle.

Keelo · 08/26/2016, 12:16 AM

Sweet sil40sx I'll definitely go pick it up I'm in Downey not that far. Thank you

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bertoni · 08/26/2016, 12:47 AM

If the issue was some die-off, I'd expect the nitrate level to drop over time frame, probably reasonably quickly, given that the die-off must not have been severe (I assume).

Keelo · 08/26/2016, 12:53 AM

Well then i I guess I do have a nitrate factory somewhere! Should I maybe swap food and feed less ? I was thinking of moving into frozen food but that might be taking a step backwards

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bertoni · 08/26/2016, 01:24 AM

Some foods will be more of an issue than others, but dried vs frozen isn't an issue. I'd cut back on the feeding for at least a few days, to see what happens, but I'd be watching for animal responses. The nitrate level would take much longer than that to disappear, most likely, even if overfeeding is the issue.

Becks · 08/26/2016, 04:45 AM

What are your nitrite readings?

sil40sx · 08/26/2016, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelo

Sweet sil40sx I'll definitely go pick it up I'm in Downey not that far. Thank you

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PM me your number the day you plan to swing by so I can txt you my address.

Keelo · 08/26/2016, 10:06 AM

Yea sure thing I'll send you a pm on Monday thanks!!

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08/25/2016, 05:17 PM	#52
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	[IMG][/IMG] [IMG][/IMG]

08/25/2016, 05:30 PM	#54
reeftivo Skim junkie Join Date: May 2008 Location: chino, CA Posts: 3,417	no3po4x http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-...gram/no3po4-x/ while the skimmer is running and has been for a while, take a pic of as much of the milked out chamber (top to bottom). Looking for a line in there where the turbulent bubbles transition into the slower uniform rise. __________________ I told you not to be stupid you moron!(Stern) Current Tank Info: 60 gal cube/20g tideline sump-mixed reef, Aquamaxx c-tech Ca Rx, Akula 160 skimmer, paxbellum N18, mitras LX7 lighting with T-5s, apex controller

08/25/2016, 09:14 PM	#58
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	To me the phosphates look like they are at .25ppm and under [IMG][/IMG]

08/25/2016, 09:34 PM	#60
Xxero Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 1,054	The small water changes don't do anything in the battle. Why? I have no clue, to be honest with you...but they don't. If your Nitrates are at 40ppm this morning, you could change out 20 gallons and your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm. Tomorrow you could change out another 20 gallons, and your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm. The day after that, go ahead and change out another 30 gallons, and I have $500 that says your Nitrates are going to read 40ppm. It's going to come down to patience or war: PATIENCE - Stay the course with routine partial water changes; keep your equipment/system as clean as possible; maybe go ahead and begin carbon dosing with NoPox or vinegar or vodka; maybe try the phosphate increase and see if that helps. This path will methodically chip away at the Nitrates, and you will eventually see a decline. This may take a couple of weeks.....this may take up to 6 months or more. WAR! - BIG water changes, man! I capitalize the word "Nitrate" because I have a huge respect for them now. Tough little boogers they are. 20 gallons here and 30 gallons there is like throwing rocks at them, and they are laughing at you. You have to nuke them, plain and simple, with BIG water changes. If you don't want to send in Big Boy like I did with a series of large water changes equaling to a 100% water change over a couple of hours, then I would suggest no less than two to three 50% or more water changes over the course of a few days. Anything less does nothing if you're wanting to see an immediate reduction. You saw this for yourself when they dropped down to 20ppm after that one big water change, and now they have bounced right back up. I'm only telling you this to save you some water, salt, and time. Patience or war? Now do you see how this can get personal? __________________ "You Can Lead A Gift Horse To Water... But You Can't Make Him Look In Your Mouth." Current Tank Info: 65g Mixed Reef Display - 15g Macro Algae/Refugium - 40b Sump

08/25/2016, 10:34 PM	#63
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	All organisms require fixed nitrogen and phosphorus to grow, so a system that has a fair amount of nitrate but very little phosphorus can be an issue. That phosphate level (0.25 ppm) is high, though, so I don't think phosphate dosing is going to help. The Red Sea NO3:PO4-X product is fine, but here's a recipe for a DIY version: 375 ml 80 proof vodka 500 ml vinegar (5% acetic acid) 125 ml RO/DI water Water changes tend not to help with many nitrate problems because many tanks can generate nitrate rapidly. This system just looks like it's getting too much food for the filtration. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/25/2016, 05:22 PM	#53
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	can you guys give me some insight into red sea no3 po4 ? it seems like a vinegar and vodka hybrid. reeftivo what images would you like to see of the skimmer ?

08/25/2016, 06:30 PM	#55
Pagey Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2	G'day Keelo. So I had nitrate problems also. Using a Salifert test kit I took my Nitrate from 50ppm+ down to 0-2.5ppm in about 3 weeks with zero water changes. My problem was not Nitrate at all! My problem was Phosphate!! I am not sure why but my tank tends to be Phosphate limited. For bacteria to consume Nitrate there needs to be some Phosphate present. So I actually started to DOSE PHOSPHATE!! (Seachem Phosphorus designed for planted tanks which is 4500ppm PO4 I believe) I know I know... Crazy right? But it worked and it worked WELL. I calculated that for 50ppm nitrate to be consumed I had to reach 3.125ppm Phosphate based on Redfield's ratio. I can tell you I certainly did not go out and dose up 3.125ppm Phosphate but what I did do is dose up to 0.40ppm phosphate and I sat back and watched. I was worried that the Phosphate would just sit there like the Nitrate was doing but no, the Phosphate got eaten up really quickly. No measureable reduction in Nitrate though. So I became more confident and begun dosing Phosphate with a more heavy hand. I can't recall exactly how much Phosphate I dosed but I do remember it was more than what I calculated I would need by a fair margin, possibly double but it all got eaten up and my Nitrates came tumbling down. I'd bring Phos up to 0.3-0.4 and wait until it was back to undetectable (Hanna ULR Phosphorus). My system specs as follows. Vol 400Gal Gyre 150 and about 2000Gal/hr of turnover from a 3000Gal/hr return pump keeps most things in suspension. All gets caught by a felt filter sock Goes through a bio pellet reactor and that effluent gets shot out directly into the intake of my HEAVILY UNDERATED skimmer Deltec SC 1455 (for tanks up to 200Gal) I have a hefty oolite sand bed because I am a fan of the natural system look and I have a very modest amount of live rock. I think the point is that I only changed one thing, I measured and began dosing Phosphate. To this day I do not run any Phos removal media and my tank continues to dry up the Phos faster than the Nitrate... Why I have no idea but after reading your thread I can't see anywhere you have tested Phosphate, it may be something for you to look at. I don't think it comes up anywhere nearly enough in the Nitrate reduction discussion.

08/25/2016, 08:21 PM	#56
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	okay reeftivo let me take some pictures of the skimmer for you, ill try to get as much as i can ! couple quick questions for those that have dosed the no3 po4, once the dosing regime starts do i have to cut back for a maintenance dose and keep it there forever ? or do you guys use it periodically to cut nitrates down? ive been a bit hesitant to dose a carbon source to the system because of the cyano stories i have heard. Does the no3 po4 create any algae for you guys?

08/25/2016, 08:25 PM	#57
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	hey pagey, im wondering if that may be the case i did a test a for phosphates a couple of days ago and i did have some but they were low. In my system i dont run carbon or GFO so the phosphate levels are " all natural" i guess. is there a adverse relation with nitrate and phosphate? let me run a test and post it on here

08/25/2016, 09:42 PM	#61
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Haha yes Xxero I know this can get intense. I'm thinking I'm gonna start dosing no3 po4 and wait it out maybe get a dosing pump and begin dosing. Sometimes I just wonder how the hell do people have nitrates at 0ppm, much respect to those people as I see no end in sight to removing these bastards! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/25/2016, 09:44 PM	#62
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Reeftivo how much would you say a bottle of no3 po4 last ? It's a bit pricey for something to dose compared to vinegar. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/25/2016, 10:46 PM	#64
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Thanks for DIY recipe bertoni I'm definitely gonna have to give it a look would I just follow the instructions of Red Sea's product ? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/25/2016, 10:53 PM	#65
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	I'm thinking of tracking my nitrates and seeing how much they grow. I think if they grow over or more like the test come out worse in a couple of days then I definitely have something brewing up nitrates in my tank! Bertoni if the nitrates were to stay at 40 -50 ppm or same color according to the test then it would be safe to assume that I might of just had some die off a couple of weeks back, right ? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/25/2016, 11:22 PM	#66
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Does anyone know of a way to automate the dosing without a dosing pump? I'm about to start school and I can barely afford my crazy tuition cost. Or does anyone have a dosing pump for sale or know of someone that sales one Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/26/2016, 12:11 AM	#68
sil40sx Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 686	If you'll be around Bell Gardens around night time on weekdays, I can give you some. I bought one, and probably used just 1/8th. Bring a clean 80-100 ml bottle.

08/26/2016, 12:16 AM	#69
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Sweet sil40sx I'll definitely go pick it up I'm in Downey not that far. Thank you Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/26/2016, 12:47 AM	#70
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	If the issue was some die-off, I'd expect the nitrate level to drop over time frame, probably reasonably quickly, given that the die-off must not have been severe (I assume). __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/26/2016, 12:53 AM	#71
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Well then i I guess I do have a nitrate factory somewhere! Should I maybe swap food and feed less ? I was thinking of moving into frozen food but that might be taking a step backwards Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08/26/2016, 01:24 AM	#72
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Some foods will be more of an issue than others, but dried vs frozen isn't an issue. I'd cut back on the feeding for at least a few days, to see what happens, but I'd be watching for animal responses. The nitrate level would take much longer than that to disappear, most likely, even if overfeeding is the issue. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/26/2016, 04:45 AM	#73
Becks Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 151	What are your nitrite readings?

08/26/2016, 10:06 AM	#75
Keelo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: So cal Posts: 299	Yea sure thing I'll send you a pm on Monday thanks!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk