Who runs the simplest system here?

[Fourstars]

Yes, few fish and 20% water change a month. My understanding is the main benefit for skimming is to remove DOC to keep them out of the nitrogen cycle thereby keeping down the Accumulation of nitrate. I’ve run this tank for two years with zero nitrate. I also broadcast feed twice a day reef roids live and frozen food.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

Yes, few fish and 20% water change a month. My understanding is the main benefit for skimming is to remove DOC to keep them out of the nitrogen cycle thereby keeping down the Accumulation of nitrate. I’ve run this tank for two years with zero nitrate. I also broadcast feed twice a day reef roids live and frozen food.

with few fish & 20% water changes DOC/TOC is unlikely to be a problem.
Yes, skimmers remove some DOC before it mineralises, but is high DOC/TOC a problem despite reasonable nitrogen & phosphate levels?

From Feldman https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

Not surprisingly, the tanks with "unpurified" water exhibited TOC levels greater than those seen with the skimmed/GAC-filtered tanks. The "purified" aquaria's TOC levels fall within the typical TOC range seen on authentic, healthy reefs (Feldman, 2008); the passively husbandry tanks were 2-3x higher.

The observation that, at least among this small set of aquaria examined, the water within the skimmed/filtered tanks had only ~ 1/10th of the population of bacteria that the unskimmed/unfiltered tanks had was a real surprise. It speaks to one aspect of aquarium husbandry in which a perhaps important parameter (?), water column bacteria counts from authentic and healthy reefs, is not reproduced at all effectively in these home aquaria.

Sensitive corals, like Acropora, do not thrive in the high-bacteria-count/high-TOC-level tanks examined, although soft corals do well (see pictures). On the other hand, SPS corals do well in the low-bacteria-count/low-TOC-level tanks (Fig. 6). These observations raise a number of questions, chief among them perhaps are, (1) "Do water column bacteria counts have any relevance to the short-term or long-term prospects for maintaining SPS in captive aquaria?", and (2) "What is the relationship between TOC and water column bacteria population?"

[Fourstars]

Thank you for this link, I missed this. I’ll have to reread this a few times, but I think I’ll not try running my new tank without a skimmer.

[Nano sapiens]

I have a 12g 'Mixed Reef' that has been running for over 10 years now with just a return pump, heater, thermometer and DIY ATO and LED lighting. I also ran a 55g for nearly 10 years this way...

IME, the maintenance routine is what makes or breaks these simple systems. Slacking off can be tolerated for a while by a very mature system, but the smaller it is, the faster it'll tend to deteriorate (eutrophication).

I read the Feldman articles a number of years ago and they do lead to some very interesting questions regarding TOC (DOC as a subset) in our captive systems. The other day I saw online that Triton (Ehsan) is attempting to bring to market a service that can determine the TOC level of your aquarium. If successful, we'll eventually have a large number of these tests from around the world that should lead to the determination of an acceptable TOC range for a particular type of reef aquarium.

[Nano sapiens]

Originally Posted by Nano sapiens

The other day I saw online that Triton (Ehsan) is attempting to bring to market a service that can determine the TOC level of your aquarium. If successful, we'll eventually have a large number of these tests from around the world that should lead to the determination of an acceptable TOC range for a particular type of reef aquarium.

Looks like Triton now has DOC testing available

[Fourstars]

After re reading this a few times I found it a very limited study and inconclusive. I understand that carbon dosing increases bacterium that uptakes P and N and then is removed by mechnical means. But what if you already have no P and N? Also The study states that high bacteria is probiotic?

A "probiotic" can be defined as a live microbial adjunct that offers a benefit to animals, algae, plants, corals, or the ambient microbial community. This benefit can be assessed in terms of an improved use of food (i.e., enhanced nutritional value), enhanced disease resistance, or by improving the quality of the ambient environment (Verschuere et al., 2000). The introduction of live bacteria cultures into a marine aquarium may be viewed as a "probiotic" husbandry technique.

As far as high TOC being detrimental to Acropora, is there a study done to back this up, And has the shear volume of water that passing through a reef been accounted for?

At this point the skimmer stays off.

[Sisterlimonpot]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

First off she’s an adult now. And it was an honest conversation between two adults. I did not help pay for her college so she could agree with all my decisions, nor to have the same values as me, but to be a freethinker. I know it’s a hard inconvenient discussion to have, but do try to keep up.

Wholeheartedly agree. If she were my daughter, I'd be proud. My set up is a bit on the extravagant side of things but try to be mindful with energy efficient equipment like LED's variable speed DC pumps etc. I justify my power usage and carbon footprint by the use of a 17kW PE system. Living in AZ it's almost a necessity to run A/C and that's an expense that made me sit down first time seeing my electric bill.

Having the system for over 2 years now, 100% of our electricity use comes from solar.

Water conservation is another aspect of it as well, and they do have DI filters that can remove all TDS and not have any rejection like RODI systems.

The other thing I would look at is waste, like bulbs, media, filter replacements etc, what is the longevity of your equipment and how can you reduce what end up in a landfill?

If it's carbon footprint that you're interested in, there are ways to have a nice tank without compromise and simply offset it with renewable resources.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Sisterlimonpot

Having the system for over 2 years now, 100% of our electricity use comes from solar.
.

What type of batteries do you have for storage?

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

After re reading this a few times I found it a very limited study and inconclusive. I understand that carbon dosing increases bacterium that uptakes P and N and then is removed by mechnical means. But what if you already have no P and N? Also The study states that high bacteria is probiotic?

True zero?
Or zero according to the test kit?
A happy tank with zero readings possibly means that things are being used up as fast as they are being produced. Given whatever system is in discussion will determine the reasons how it’s possible. Ie...micro algae that tangs are consuming as it grows, or, a nano tank with coral density that acts as micro algae. Or, perhaps. The reverse. Maybe a large refugium with plenty of light...

True zero means death.

[Fourstars]

Well of course not absolute zero. A happy balanced tank were perhaps nutrients could be a limiting factor.

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

Your requesting scientific papers for my claim?

Hi, scientific papers or a book or two would be nice. thanks.

[Diana A]

I think my system is pretty simple: 40b, Real Reef rocks, bare bottom, hob skimmer, fluval fx6 canister, LPS, and SPS. 5 gallon Water change every two weeks. Tank has been running for 6 years. Always had low nitrate but I do need to get the phosphate up

[Fourstars]

Originally Posted by Diana A

I think my system is pretty simple: 40b, Real Reef rocks, bare bottom, hob skimmer, fluval fx6 canister, LPS, and SPS. 5 gallon Water change every two weeks. Tank has been running for 6 years. Always had low nitrate but I do need to get the phosphate up

I love 40B's and have a few set up. Bare bottom make life so much easier. Sounds like a very successful tank

[EMeyer]

Many people are calling their systems simple because they don't have a sump. I am afraid I cant agree with that definition of simple.

Without a sump, you are looking at your heater, skimmer, media reactors, etc. all the time. With all that extreme visual clutter, can we really call such a system simpler than a system with a basic sump, just because it has one fewer tank?

Many things in this hobby I consider unnecessary. But I cant imagine looking at a sumpless tank every day.

[Diana A]

Originally Posted by EMeyer

Many people are calling their systems simple because they don't have a sump. I am afraid I cant agree with that definition of simple.

Without a sump, you are looking at your heater, skimmer, media reactors, etc. all the time. With all that extreme visual clutter, can we really call such a system simpler than a system with a basic sump, just because it has one fewer tank?

Many things in this hobby I consider unnecessary. But I cant imagine looking at a sumpless tank every day.

Not true. All of my intakes and heater are located in a overflow box that houses it. I purchased an overflow box and siliconed it to the aquarium when it was purchase.

[eyesinthedrk]

Of all your energy consumption, your tank is very minimal compared to other luxuryies like heating , a/c, and refrigeration. In my case I have all the bells and whistles and the added power was less than a 10% increase.

Let’s use the fridge as an example. You don’t need one. You could stop on the way home every day, pick up the nights dinner and a bag of ice for drinks and keeping things cold. Same goes for a tank. The more it does on its own the less you need to do. That leaves more time to visit with your lovely daughter. Lie and tell her you only take cold showers to offset your tanks carbon foot print.

I have know it all kids too.

[Fourstars]

“In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the H&S skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. “

More good reading. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

[Fourstars]

Originally Posted by eyesinthedrk

Of all your energy consumption, your tank is very minimal compared to other luxuryies like heating , a/c, and refrigeration. In my case I have all the bells and whistles and the added power was less than a 10% increase.

Let’s use the fridge as an example. You don’t need one. You could stop on the way home every day, pick up the nights dinner and a bag of ice for drinks and keeping things cold. Same goes for a tank. The more it does on its own the less you need to do. That leaves more time to visit with your lovely daughter. Lie and tell her you only take cold showers to offset your tanks carbon foot print.

I have know it all kids too.

I think our kids think us adults have gone full retard. but there are many simple things one can do to offset the tank, replace all the bulbs with LED’s, get rid of the mini fridge and keep food in the main freezer, don’t run the heat downstairs mainly because plenty from the halide bulbs. Recycle, reuse and maintain what you have. Also frag what you have to stock your buddies tank!

[Whiskylen]

My work aquarium is pretty simple

Fluval evo5 with stock media and a 50w heater

I pull cheato every week or two and add water to top it off




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Green Chromis]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

I think our kids think us adults have gone full retard. but there are many simple things one can do to offset the tank, replace all the bulbs with LED’s, get rid of the mini fridge and keep food in the main freezer, don’t run the heat downstairs mainly because plenty from the halide bulbs. Recycle, reuse and maintain what you have. Also frag what you have to stock your buddies tank!

Why do I want to get rid of my mini fridge in my outdoor BBQ area, and in my master bedroom suite Can I keep my built in beer kegerator or my icemaker in my BBQ area, or my freezer for my fish food and bait when I go fishing. I know one thing I will never get ride of, is my central A/C units, as it is way to hot and humid down here in South Florida from April to December. I am glad people are trying to reduce their carbon foot print, as I have changed out my M/H, VHO lighting to the LED Mitra LX 7206 lights, and purchased a new more efficient Mercury Outboard for my boat, so I am doing my part.

[Turtlesteve]

Thanks....I knew I had seen this before but didn't remember where.

Originally Posted by Fourstars

“In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the H&S skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. “

More good reading. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Fourstars

“In total, these data unequivocally demonstrate that the H&S skimmer is not required to deplete the aquarium water of TOC. Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. “

More good reading. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3

Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. “

This is referring to the spike in toc/doc 6 to 9 hours after feeding, & then the take up of that spike by coral bacteria which returns the level of toc/doc to previous levels. He isn't suggesting the bacteria can control levels of toc/doc in general & do the job of GAC or skimming in a system that has an average fish population, (if that is what you were inferring?).

[Fourstars]

“The somewhat subversive thesis that perhaps skimmers do not contribute much to TOC removal/water purification was raised in the discussion of Figs. 5 and 6; the exceedingly low TOC values in the skimmerless tank #2 provide further support for this notion. What then, distinguishes this tank from the other skimmerless tank, #3, which has exceedingly high TOC levels? Both tanks lack sandbeds and have similar fish loads and soft coral/invertebrate populations. The one identifiable difference in husbandry between them involves GAC; the low TOC tank (#2) uses GAC-based water filtration, whereas the high-TOC tank (#3) does not. Does GAC really make such a spectacular difference in TOC loads while at the same time protein skimmers scarcely have any effect at all? This question and related topics are currently under study, and results will be reported in the near future.”

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2

[lapin]

I know of a person on another forum that keeps a reef tank in a 1 gallon vase / reef bowl. Has so for years. Pretty simple

[Turtlesteve]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Apparently, naturally biological processes are sufficient in and of themselves to return the post-feeding TOC levels to their pre-feeding values after about 4 hrs or so. “

This is referring to the spike in toc/doc 6 to 9 hours after feeding, & then the take up of that spike by coral bacteria which returns the level of toc/doc to previous levels. He isn't suggesting the bacteria can control levels of toc/doc in general & do the job of GAC or skimming in a system that has an average fish population, (if that is what you were inferring?).

Yeah, but.... there's also no evidence that the DOC/TOC spike differs in composition from the baseline (he goes into great detail about how difficult this is to measure). Your counter-suggestion would imply such a difference.

You are correct that he doesn't directly claim that the bacteria can handle everything, as it wasn't tested in this article - but it's still a reasonable inference from his work. Consider some of the follow up work:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2/

Taking all of this together, it is pretty certain to me that protein skimming is a minor, supplemental method of clearing DOC's. If bacterial activity in a skimmed tank processes 65-80% of the total system load (in DOC's), it's reasonable to infer that a modestly higher bacterial population could handle all of it.

Also, burden of proof should be the other way around. I'm amazed at how well stuff sells in this hobby just because someone uses it on a tank that happens to house high end SPS. I have a skimmerless tank and two working skimmers sitting on a shelf. I might use them again one day when I'm convinced I need one.

Steve