Re-automating my tank

[RobbyG]

In Laymen terms this kind of controller gives you total flexibility to create and customize just about anything you could want, but it comes at the price of being very difficult to put it all together and the need to write code.(If you know what your doing this can be fun) but It will not be a $$ saver.

Something like an Aquatronica or Elos controller can do most of the things you would need for a Tank and will be cheaper in the long run and pre tested by many users, but you won't have the flexibility to just dream up some new design idea and implement it like you can with Dons system.

[Donw]

Originally posted by RobbyG
In Laymen terms this kind of controller gives you total flexibility to create and customize just about anything you could want, but it comes at the price of being very difficult to put it all together and the need to write code.(If you know what your doing this can be fun) but It will not be a $$ saver.

Something like an Aquatronica or Elos controller can do most of the things you would need for a Tank and will be cheaper in the long run and pre tested by many users, but you won't have the flexibility to just dream up some new design idea and implement it like you can with Dons system.

Sort of correct. A basic aquatronica will cost 6 or 7 hundred dollars you get one float switch and one ph probe and one power strip.
You can easily get that limited setup plus a lot more for under 5. The big thing is the ability to expand cheaply and redundancy that you cant get with a aquarium controller. Once The aquarium controller goes out to lunch you have no control over anything to include temp and level control. Since the ocelot requires other controllers to get measurements you can have the ocelot go bad and have the tank just default to a non automated system but still have the important things like temp control.
There is no difficulty in writing code, code is witten in the same manner that a normal person thinks (if then else logic) just like most aquarium controllers. Its completely menu driven so need to be some code guru.
As far as being tested the ocelot has been used in high end automation for at least the last ten years. Mine has been in use for at least 8 years. This isnt new technology, its just new to the aquarium industry. Controllers like the aquatronica are really oldschool, it just took time for this type of thing to hit this industry.

Don

[Cuervo]

Wow this is very cool. In trying to find out what those things do, I noticed that the Ocelot and the SECU that go with it are not all that expensive.

On the strip with the outlets, if it's just a bunch of relays and outlets, then it would be possible to have several power sources coming into the strip? I wouldn't want all of my equipment on the same circuit. Or would it be possible to have several strips like that connected to the controller?

[Donw]

Originally posted by Cuervo
Wow this is very cool. In trying to find out what those things do, I noticed that the Ocelot and the SECU that go with it are not all that expensive.

On the strip with the outlets, if it's just a bunch of relays and outlets, then it would be possible to have several power sources coming into the strip? I wouldn't want all of my equipment on the same circuit. Or would it be possible to have several strips like that connected to the controller?

The power strips are mine and will not be for sale for a month or so. Each stip has 8 controlled outlets. Each secu16 can control 8 outlets. Each strip can handle 15a.

Hope this helps
Don

[H20ENG]

Don, I loved your analogy! I have been trying to explain the low sump switch cycling for years. In panels I have built, I used a timing relay set for 1 hr to save the pump if need be. Mine will be PLC controlled, but it follows your logic.
Keep up the good work!

[Cuervo]

I don't think I was clear on my question.

If I were going to do something like this, I would need to be able to control accross multiple circuits. 15a is not enough for my whole setup.

I would need at least 2 strips at 15a each.
Each strip would be controlled by an SECU16. Actually, I think if I were going to go to this extent, I might even go for more than just 2. It seems like with the right solenoid valves and such that I could do some neat stuff like fully automated water changes. Very cool indeed, thanks for the thread man!!

Is the Ocelot capable of controlling multiple SECU's?

I went looking for the answer to my question, but the info I have found so far is kind of unclear. It says it can handle up to 256 X10 devices, but I'm not sure how that corresponds.

[Donw]

Originally posted by Cuervo
I don't think I was clear on my question.

If I were going to do something like this, I would need to be able to control accross multiple circuits. 15a is not enough for my whole setup.

I would need at least 2 strips at 15a each.
Each strip would be controlled by an SECU16. Actually, I think if I were going to go to this extent, I might even go for more than just 2. It seems like with the right solenoid valves and such that I could do some neat stuff like fully automated water changes. Very cool indeed, thanks for the thread man!!

Is the Ocelot capable of controlling multiple SECU's?

I went looking for the answer to my question, but the info I have found so far is kind of unclear. It says it can handle up to 256 X10 devices, but I'm not sure how that corresponds.

It can run 126 modules. If they were all secu16's thats 1008 IO's and 1008 relay outputs. If thats not enough you can run a slave ocelot and double the capacity.

Don

[Cuervo]

ROFL... If I can't get it done with 1008 I/O's, either I've done something wrong, or my wife is filing for divorce due to my going slightly over budget. (probably both)

I think I'm starting to get the idea of this.

Next question. On your float switches, are they connected to one of the I/O's and the common? So the controller just reads whether the circuit is either open or closed for that particular I/O?

Do you have your system setup so that it can give you some kind of output or warning, like if you need to empty the skimmer cup, or if the system has detected a failure? (Is that what your LCD display is for?) An email, or a text message would be cool, or maybe a few warning lights.

[Donw]

Originally posted by Cuervo
ROFL... If I can't get it done with 1008 I/O's, either I've done something wrong, or my wife is filing for divorce due to my going slightly over budget. (probably both)

I think I'm starting to get the idea of this.

Next question. On your float switches, are they connected to one of the I/O's and the common? So the controller just reads whether the circuit is either open or closed for that particular I/O?

Do you have your system setup so that it can give you some kind of output or warning, like if you need to empty the skimmer cup, or if the system has detected a failure? (Is that what your LCD display is for?) An email, or a text message would be cool, or maybe a few warning lights.

Yes the floats are just contact closure. So one wire to the common bus and the other to a input.
The lcd displays faults and status. Its driven by a rs232 bobcat connected to the ocelot network.
I use flashing lights and buzzers as failure notification. If I dont respond within 3 minutes it calls my cell. The Ocelot has a adnet modem as part of the network. You set up different pager messages depending on the type of failure.

Don

[eameres]

I'm waiting to see how you integrate monitoring (ph, orp, conductivity, etc...). Man those probes can get pricey!

[Donw]

Originally posted by eameres
I'm waiting to see how you integrate monitoring (ph, orp, conductivity, etc...). Man those probes can get pricey!

There is no real trick here either. Remember I said it uses external controllers to get a layer of redundancy. The secu16's can use 0-5v signals or 4-20ma signals. Hanna has a line of mini panel mount controllers. They are very small and have a 4-20ma output along with a regular relay output. Each one runs about $150. For a outstanding temp sensor I use a ranco controller that has a 1-10v output. These are kind of hard to find but grainger always has them.
So basicly if you had one ph controller. You could hook the 110v output to co2 a solenoid and the 4-20 to the secu16. Let the secu16 control your kalk reactor vs rodi. Also have the ocelot send you a page if ph were to go way out of wack. Pretty much what ever you can think of. Make sense?

Don

[eameres]

Originally posted by Donw
Make sense?

Don

Yup!

[RobbyG]

Don you have no idea how appealing it is to me to set up one of these but this is like another major thing to consume my evening hours and right now the wife is not to pleased with the time I spend working on the Tank to begin with. I kind of disagree with you on the price issue, if you start to add up all the things that are needed to get the controller to full use (2xpower bars, pH, ORP, Temp, 3x levels sensors, PC interface) It all adds up.

[horkn]

Originally posted by Donw
I undertand, most try with aquarium controllers but they are very limited.
For me its another hobby and the system is tied to my house that is also very automated. Besides I never forget to clean that darn skimmer air hose.

what are your thoughts on using an Allen bradley microligi 1100 ethernet capable PLC to automate the reef?

see, i work in purchasing and my Gf works at rockwell automation. we use PLCs for water and wastewater automation, and i know it can be used to automate a tank.

it may not be the cheapest way top do it for msot folks, but i think i can get my hands on a 1100 that has been refurbished

[BeanAnimal]

Your GF can send me as many PLCs as hse cares too... I will make good use of them!

PLCs are great.... esp a high end AB. If you can get one cheap, then it is a great platform. You also need to uderstand how to program them (something that is well over the head of most people). There are a few folks here who have used them for tank setups... I don't have the patience to learn yet one more programming platform.

Bean

[eameres]

I'm looking at the boards from www. futurlec . com , interesting stuff and VERY inexpensive.

[Donw]

Originally posted by RobbyG
Don you have no idea how appealing it is to me to set up one of these but this is like another major thing to consume my evening hours and right now the wife is not to pleased with the time I spend working on the Tank to begin with. I kind of disagree with you on the price issue, if you start to add up all the things that are needed to get the controller to full use (2xpower bars, pH, ORP, Temp, 3x levels sensors, PC interface) It all adds up.

It does add up but comparing it to the aquatronica with one ph probe, one power strip and one float at $700.

Ocelot $160
Secu16 $90
Ph controller $150
"power"/ power module $85
3 float switches $30
1 optical for skimmer $45
Ranco with 110v and 1-10v $80

Total of $640 and you got 2 extra floats, a optical, redundant heat/chiller control and redundant ph control.

Don

[Donw]

After a few pm's I think I should make it clear. I am not a dealer and dont sell this stuff. I'm just a satisfied and expeienced user. The power modules will be for sale soon. I'm looking for a dealer so that they can be available for folks with automated systems and NON automated. If I cant find a dealer I'll set up a web site.

Thanks
Don

[Donw]

Here is what the hanna controllers look like. Since I'm still in the level control phase of my remodel. This hanna tds controller is next. In order to keep the peace between me and the water company. I'm using a pre-rodi dump or flush, this is because the water company will flush the mains once every month and plug up my sediment filters, paid for itself pretty quick.
I'm lucky to have very low incomming tds (less than 40). So basicly every time the ato starts it opens a bypass valve to the sewer and flushes for 3 minutes or until the incomming tds is less than 49 but not more than 15 minutes. Ive found it usually takes about 1 minute to hit the mark and if the lines were just flushed it takes 8 minutes average. I need to reinstall the valves so the ro membrane will back flush every few days but that will have to wait for the week-end.

[ronc98]

Don I agree that this will be much cheaper then an aquatronica for what you get. I thought the same thing.

you will be suprised how many people would rather spend three times are much to get 1/3 less. If you can hit the DIY market you might have some luck.

[Charlie97L]

don-

i read through your post, very informative...

i had a question, though. i see your ATO is very well thought out... is there anyway for those of us with a basic system to get a reliable ATO? I have dual floats on mine, one at a higher level that the first, and i'm still paranoid the top one will get stuck and i'll have an overflow.

i know there are deadlock reliable ATOs out there, i just haven't found one.

[Donw]

Originally posted by Charlie97L
don-

i read through your post, very informative...

i had a question, though. i see your ATO is very well thought out... is there anyway for those of us with a basic system to get a reliable ATO? I have dual floats on mine, one at a higher level that the first, and i'm still paranoid the top one will get stuck and i'll have an overflow.

i know there are deadlock reliable ATOs out there, i just haven't found one.

I'm assuming your talking about NO automation here just a good basic ato with no fancy relays or wiring. Sure you can. I think in a system like that you just need good quality parts and low voltage.

Of course I'm going to tell you one of my power mudules with a manual switch box connected to the db9 and 3 madison float switches connected to the switch box. With this you are all low voltage neg. poll, have good parts and can contol 8 components maually without pulling plugs or making some funky power panel.

Or make your own relay boxes and use good quality relays.

Don

[Tigger240]

im glad he posted his setup, ive been looking for something like this for a while! i wanted something thats not like C++ programming, which i have no clue about, but also something that i can learn from, and make my tank more automated. i looked heavily into aquatronica, but man the cost was quite steep for a full blown setup. i guess money goes easier in 80-150 dollar chunks than 1500+ all at once. more pics don, please? this amount of controll to be had with this unit is surprising, not to mention programmable to pretty much meet any need or setup. something along the lines of a dialyseas could be programmed here at a fraction of the cost.

[Donw]

There has been question about solenoids lately. I'm going to be using both the 110v and the 12v. Contrary to belief the ones from mcmaster be it 12v or 110v have either exposed copper or brass I cant tell the difference. Either way Ive used both types for a long time and neither has failed or eroded.

[BeanAnimal]

Don...

Both versions (AC or DC) of that solenoid have wetted brass. The AC versions have wetted copper (in the form of a shading coil). I wouldnt use it/them on the TANK side of an RO/DI but other people do and seem to report no problems. If you look at McMaster you will find a "polycarbonate" solenoid valve that comes equiped with John Guest fittings. The DC version of this valve has ONLY stainless (and plastic) wetted part. I will be using them as they are not much more expensive and made by a high quality company (Norgren). As I have metioned in other posts, the AC version of most ANY direct actuated solenoid has a Copper shading coil that is wetted.

Bean