New Lumen Bright Reflector. ... any info on them

[dja1980]

Originally posted by JCTewks
I relly don't think you'll want to do 400w reeflux 12K's on a 120 gal tank....in LB's or LA's. They push PLENTY of PAR on the 250 to keep anything. IMO the 400's will allow you to grow SPS on the sandbed, and nothing will survive in the top 18" of the tank.

If you've learned anything from reading this thread, just get the CV 250w ballast, reeflux 12K, LB mini's and call it a day. You may even save some money over the PFO's by dropping down to 250w....You'll definitely save money every month

Hmmm... Now you've got me thinking…

I've seen so many fantastic examples with 400’s in LA’s over a 24� deep tank (whether it be 90g, 120g, 180g, 240g, etc… shouldn’t matter) where the corals are absolutely exploding with color (mounted high & low).

My step-dad is running 250w ReefLux 10K’s on ARO Electronic ballasts with actinic supplementation, and I must admit that the tank looks a bit dim. Granted, he’s NOT using LA’s or LB’s, but his colors just don’t seem to “pop� like I’ve seen in other tanks with 400’s with similar reflectors. Hopefully, I can talk him into upgrading his reflectors soon so he can at least make better use of what I consider an underpowered lighting system.

My idea was to go with the 400w dimmable ballasts so I could tone them down if need be. My thought process is that I’d rather have too much light and be able to dim it than spend all that money on 250s and wish I had more.

[bubbletip2]

dja1980,

I want you to think this through clearly as you have read the thread and have seen many tanks with 400w 12K Reflux that are obviously flourishing.

I am not trying to create an argument, but I definitely disagree that coral are will die at the top half of the tank simply because you are using 400w bulbs. I definitely feel you need to be a bit more careful in acclimating coral.

I personally have 2 -400w 12K Reeflux over my 156g and my coral look very vibrant and are growing as would be expected.

I tend to reduce photoperiods whenever I get new coral or decide to start moving things around. When I reduce photoperiod I literally mean down to 3-4 hours per day for 3-5 days increasing by an hour and going through the 3-5 day cycle again until I am back to my original photoperiod which has been between 6-7 hours. If you want to speed up this process, it is your own inpatience and you risk the life of our coral. Proper acclimation is so important and I have yet to lose a coral when acclimating in this way.

I think you are on the right path as far as considering the dimmables as you can reduce the amount of light during these times when you need to acclimate.

In the recent past I have done many tests of different bulbs and ballasts and found an LFS owner that was running a 250w 12K bulb on an ARO ballast. To both of our surprise and him more than me, we were reading between 350-450 1" above the surface on 3 different ARO and 12K ballast combinations. I explained that the reason your coral is not doing as well is because you are ignorant to what the bulb and ballast combination is actually putting out. Without a meter, he would have never known and would have kept this set up and blamed it on the bulb most likely instead of the ballast. There is so much of this on Reef Central today and people are talking about something without "any" concrete evidence as to what is really goign on.

I do realize that many people are not going to fork over $250 for a PAR meter, however if you did you would better be able to tell what is actually going on with your ballast and bulb combination.

ARO's do not fire 12K's well also. At least the 3 ballasts I tested. 250w CV ballasts have been testing over 1000 par 1" above the surface as opposed to 350-450 on the ARO's. Do you see the differences here?

People just assume that an electronic is an electronic and a HQI must be more powerful by the nature of it. This is just not the case and bulbs require the right ballast to perform optimally. I would imagine an Icecap ballast performing well with a 12K but I have not tested it. I do know that EVC electronic ballasts will fire a 12K with high PAR readings - 850 1" above the surface as I own one. Not as high as CV ballast but respectable.

12K bulbs were meant to be run on CV ballasts. That is just the way of it. If you want the color and PAR that was intended by the bulb manufacturer, which in my words is "like swimming on a reef on a sunny day", then you need to run them on CV ballasts. Basically a perfect combination of blue and white light. Great for photographs, particularly white balancing the photos that is often difficult with bulbs that are too blue.

For reference again regarding PFO HQI ballasts - we were getting numbers that were 450 1" above the surface with 12K bulb 14" above the surface. This test was done with a Lumenarc though so I would imagine at least a 15% - 20% increase if we tested the PFO HQI's under a LumenBright. That would still be more than half less than running the bulb on a CV ballast. PFO HQI's are the biggest waste of money, electric bill wise. Besides they are honking big looking more like a stereo amp than a ballast and man are they heavy.

Tell your buddies to borrow or buy a PAR meter and test their PFO HQI's themselves - they will be pretty shocked when the see the numbers.

And as for anyone that is trying to use a LumenBright 12" off the water, well you are not using them as recommended by the manufacturer. Need to go up a couple inches unless you literally have them pressed against each other - them maybe 12" will be fine. "Every inch counts."

I am going to post some shots of 400w tanks that are clearly thriving when I return home this evening. Everyone has seen these pics before and you will see coral literally 4 inches under the surface of the water growing at an enormitous rate with gleaming color. These LumenBrights are plenty strong with 250's for sure. Those requiring more light of a 400w bulb just need to be more careful in terms of acclimation. I am certainly not trying to push 400w bulbs as they are not for an inexperienced reefkeeper that does not know how to diagnose potential problems or the thresholds for certain coral we may keep in our tanks. 250's will be plenty fine for most people.

[dja1980]

Originally posted by bubbletip2
dja1980,

I want you to think this through clearly as you have read the thread and have seen many tanks with 400w 12K Reflux that are obviously flourishing.

Jim, thanks again for the thorough response. Believe me, thinking this through clearly is exactly what I’ve been doing for the last several months… between going back in forth on e-mails with other reefers, reading countless threads, reviewing past & present TOTM’s, and comparing data from Sanjay’s site, I think I’m finally getting my lighting decision narrowed down.

Even before finding this thread, I was roughly at a 70% / 30% split in my decision of going with the Coralvue ballasts over PFO’s. Now that I’ve read so much about the LB’s I’m closer to 95% sure I’m going to go with the Coralvue ballasts. However, I would really like to be able to compare these combos with my own eyes as opposed to going on recommendations alone before I make my final decision.

I am not trying to create an argument, but I definitely disagree that coral are will die at the top half of the tank simply because you are using 400w bulbs. I definitely feel you need to be a bit more careful in acclimating coral.
I couldn’t agree more.

I personally have 2 -400w 12K Reeflux over my 156g and my coral look very vibrant and are growing as would be expected.

I tend to reduce photoperiods whenever I get new coral or decide to start moving things around. When I reduce photoperiod I literally mean down to 3-4 hours per day for 3-5 days increasing by an hour and going through the 3-5 day cycle again until I am back to my original photoperiod which has been between 6-7 hours. If you want to speed up this process, it is your own inpatience and you risk the life of our coral. Proper acclimation is so important and I have yet to lose a coral when acclimating in this way.

I think you are on the right path as far as considering the dimmables as you can reduce the amount of light during these times when you need to acclimate.

I couldn’t agree more.

In the recent past I have done many tests of different bulbs and ballasts and found an LFS owner that was running a 250w 12K bulb on an ARO ballast. To both of our surprise and him more than me, we were reading between 350-450 1" above the surface on 3 different ARO and 12K ballast combinations. I explained that the reason your coral is not doing as well is because you are ignorant to what the bulb and ballast combination is actually putting out. Without a meter, he would have never known and would have kept this set up and blamed it on the bulb most likely instead of the ballast. There is so much of this on Reef Central today and people are talking about something without "any" concrete evidence as to what is really going on.

I do realize that many people are not going to fork over $250 for a PAR meter, however if you did you would better be able to tell what is actually going on with your ballast and bulb combination.

ARO's do not fire 12K's well also. At least the 3 ballasts I tested. 250w CV ballasts have been testing over 1000 par 1" above the surface as opposed to 350-450 on the ARO's. Do you see the differences here?

People just assume that an electronic is an electronic and a HQI must be more powerful by the nature of it. This is just not the case and bulbs require the right ballast to perform optimally. I would imagine an Icecap ballast performing well with a 12K but I have not tested it. I do know that EVC electronic ballasts will fire a 12K with high PAR readings - 850 1" above the surface as I own one. Not as high as CV ballast but respectable.

12K bulbs were meant to be run on CV ballasts. That is just the way of it. If you want the color and PAR that was intended by the bulb manufacturer, which in my words is "like swimming on a reef on a sunny day", then you need to run them on CV ballasts. Basically a perfect combination of blue and white light. Great for photographs, particularly white balancing the photos that is often difficult with bulbs that are too blue.

This is exactly what I suspected… thanks for answering.

For reference again regarding PFO HQI ballasts - we were getting numbers that were 450 1" above the surface with 12K bulb 14" above the surface. This test was done with a Lumenarc though so I would imagine at least a 15% - 20% increase if we tested the PFO HQI's under a LumenBright. That would still be more than half less than running the bulb on a CV ballast. PFO HQI's are the biggest waste of money, electric bill wise. Besides they are honking big looking more like a stereo amp than a ballast and man are they heavy.

This is exactly what I was looking for in my first post… didn’t know if anyone had ever compared the two combos. So my assumptions were correct to some extent… only I assumed:

HQI + 12K ReefLux + LA = more par
CV + 12K ReefLux + LA = less par

BUT, when you throw a LB into the equation…

HQI + 12K ReefLux + LA = equal or less par
CV + 12K ReefLux + LB = equal or more par

Your findings are even better than I expected! I think this has put another nail into the PFO coffin, IMO!

Tell your buddies to borrow or buy a PAR meter and test their PFO HQI's themselves - they will be pretty shocked when the see the numbers.

I was actually thinking about purchasing one that I could share with them. I can definitely see how owning one would be very beneficial.

And as for anyone that is trying to use a LumenBright 12" off the water, well you are not using them as recommended by the manufacturer. Need to go up a couple inches unless you literally have them pressed against each other - them maybe 12" will be fine. "Every inch counts."

Exactly. I don’t think it’s fair to comment about the spread of the LB’s UNLESS you have them mounted at the recommended height.

I am going to post some shots of 400w tanks that are clearly thriving when I return home this evening. Everyone has seen these pics before and you will see coral literally 4 inches under the surface of the water growing at an enormitous rate with gleaming color. These LumenBrights are plenty strong with 250's for sure. Those requiring more light of a 400w bulb just need to be more careful in terms of acclimation. I am certainly not trying to push 400w bulbs as they are not for an inexperienced reefkeeper that does not know how to diagnose potential problems or the thresholds for certain coral we may keep in our tanks. 250's will be plenty fine for most people.

I’m looking forward to seeing these… Thanks again!

[sailfish2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bubbletip2

And as for anyone that is trying to use a LumenBright 12" off the water, well you are not using them as recommended by the manufacturer. Need to go up a couple inches unless you literally have them pressed against each other - them maybe 12" will be fine. "Every inch counts."
]

What I found was to get the par I was shooting for I have to have them this close to the water.

I wanted par of 400 at a depth of 11.5". To achieve this using an aquamedic HQI ballast and 14,000k phoenix bulbs I had to put the reflector around 12" from the surface of the water to the bulb.
(Bottom of the reflector 7 1/4" of the surface.)

This gave me around 490 to 500+ in the center of the reflector and
350 to 420 around the sides of the bulb but still within the reflector.

Outside the dimensions of the reflector the # drop off greatly to like 150. This was all done at a depth of 11.5" the depth of the tank.

I am happy with them and would purchase them again but think people should understand that the light outside of the reflector is minimal.

Joe

[dja1980]

Originally posted by sailfish2
I am happy with them and would purchase them again but think people should understand that the light outside of the reflector is minimal.

But, from what I've read, this is only the case if the bulb is not mounted at roughly 16" above the water, no?

[wfgworks]

bubbletip2

What are your thoughts on Tanks that are 30" deep using the LB's? 250watt or 400watt?

[bubbletip2]

Depends on what you want to grow. If you want to keep SPS on the bottom or clams for that matter, 400w bulbs would be appreciated by them. However, if you want a mixed reef with LPS and Softies on the lower 6-8 inches then 250's would be just fine. If you are definitely going ot have softies, you really need to be careful with the 400w bulbs. It is all relative to what kind of tank you envision and the type of coral you plan on growing. If you gave me a little more information for what you had in mind as your aquascape, I can better give you my thoughts of which bulbs woudl work best. If you can compromise light loving SPS or clams not being on the bottom, than 250's will be fine for just about any tank configuration.

I want to point out that I am referring to 12K Reeflux. My answer may be different depending upon if you plan to use 20K,14K,10K, or 6500K Bulbs and from which manufacturer as well. All of this plays a role. Again if you can be more specific of what you had in mind, I could be of more assistance.

Bringing this back to testing, it is impossible to say for sure what your lights are putting out without a way to test for it. I have had areas that I was sure were low in PAR, then to find out that I was getting numbers above 300 there. I would have never guessed that and if I decided to place softies there, they may die, and I would not know why unless I had a way to measure.

It's funny how we spend all this money on different lighting setups, water test kits, and expensive coral, but reefkeepers are so hesitant to grab a PAR meter. It will certainly last as long as you take care of it and have it calibrated whenever necessary. I really would like to see more reefkeepers using these devices because we are too reliant on everyone else to do this testing. Test things out yourselves so you can validate things and know what is best for your situation. I feel that testing tanks that are running with water is much more telling than open air tests that don't have anything to do with what is happening in our tanks. Just some of my thoughts on the matter.

[wfgworks]

I was planing on doing a mixed reef but more on the lines of SPS. I wanted to keep clams as well and will be going with the Reeflux 12ks.

I had an SPS tank before which was only 24" deep but my new tank will be 30" tall. It seems once you get to the 30" mark, many seem to recommend 400watts if going the sps/clam direction.

[nreefer]

I have 250 watt DE bulbs on my 32" deep tank. I have clams and SPS on the bottom of my rockwork and all are doing great an growing really well.
I used to run PFO mini's but switched to LB's and they are noticably brighter.

[melev]

I have 250w SE bulbs over my tank that is 30" tall, with SPS, clams, zoanthids, anemones etc... It has been that way for 3.5 years with mere spider reflectors and my corals grew well. It's the other stuff that happens to my tank that screws up growth progress, but I just bought LuminBrite reflectors that will be here in the next 48 hours.

[bubbletip2]

I think it is important for me to reiterate that keeping coral under 400w bulbs and LumenBrights is much different than what reefkeepers have seen in the past. These reflectors obviously emit a lot of PAR as evidenced in this thread by the numerous reefkeepers that have contributed data.

You have to be careful when using 400w bulbs. No joke. I really don't want to recommend 400w bulbs to anyone because I don't want to be responsible for people bleaching their coral. You must be experienced enough to understand and be able to diagnose problems with your coral. Also, just because you have 400w bulbs over your tank and your corals bleach does not mean the 400w bulb is directly responsible. Without proper flow, stable water perameters, nutrition for your coral(I mean food - real food that they will accept), it is going to be very difficult to save your coral especially with the added stress of excessive illumination in 400w bulbs. Everyone thinks more is better and this is not always the case. You need to get your basic reefkeeping skills down and keep a stable system before trying your luck at some intense lighting.

Ok, I said my peace. Now, here again is a shot of a tank by an experienced reefkeeper that is clearly thriving. This is a mixed reef with softies, LPS , and SPS running 5 -400w 12K Reeflux bulbs("like swimmign on a reef on a sunny day"). Notice the several SPS pieces very close to the surface of the water. I have witnessed the most amazing growth and color in this particular section of the tank directly under this 400w bulb. Clearly these coral are not ready to die. This is a 30" deep tank.

Careful placement of coral is key to making sure your coral thrive. If you are unable to diagnose whether your coral is getting excessive light/flow or not enough light/flow, it will be extrememly difficult to obtain optimal growth and color. I still have a lot to learn in this area as well, but have experienced people around me to help me diagnose potential problems.



Pretty soon here I will be heading back over to see this beautiful tank. It has been several months and from what I hear the growth is out of control. We are talking about a few months here. A perfect example of accelerated growth and color due to optimal conditions.

Now as far as anyone considering 400w bulbs under LB's. Well, I would first recommend dimmable ballasts as this will best help you acclimate your coral by easily being able to turn down your bulbs at the first signs of stress. Second, I would make sure you have enough room for these reflectors to be able to raise them from 16" to 18" bulb to water to accomodate for coral growth. If you are running 20K's you my be able to get away with 14"-16". The more room the better. I still don't want to recommend 400watters to anyone, but if you are going to do it anyway, just be careful Again most reefkeepers will do just fine with 250w bulbs. This is another plus for LumenBrights as reefkeepers that used to be caught between deciding whether they should go with 250w bulbs or 400w bulbs can rest assure that 250w bulbs will put out ample PAR for expected growth as the PAR numbers speak for themselves.

[melev]

Well said.

[wfgworks]

Marc

I have looked at your tank as I read you have 250watt SE bulbs. Do you have SPS that sit lower in your tank or are they higher up would you say?

[wfgworks]

I guess the concern I have is the corals that would be closer to the bottom of the tank or clams sitting on the bottom of the tank, getting enough light from a 250watt LB hanging 14" off the water surface.

Thats nearly 46" difference between the bulb and tank bottom.

[JRaquatics]

Jims back... again. Jim you will be in for a treat. After seeing that old pic, and the way the same tank looks a few months later is simply amazing. When are you going to make it back out my way to get some new shots? The tank should be fully grown in about 8 months. I am getting awsome growth, even the stags at the bottom of my tank. Have you done your tests yet on the life of the Reeflux bulbs like we talked about last?

[melev]

Originally posted by wfgworks
Marc

I have looked at your tank as I read you have 250watt SE bulbs. Do you have SPS that sit lower in your tank or are they higher up would you say?

Here's a picture from 3/18/08:


Some SPS is down on the sand, but most of it is on the rockwork midway up and higher. A few pieces are almost down on the sand, and have been for a long time, as has my clam.





I currently have some temporary LuminBrites (balanced on my old light rack) over my tank...






... but the 'real' ones arrive tomorrow or Saturday. I bought some from www.reefspecialty.com that have glass shields instead. Gotta support our RC sponsors.

The ones I've been using for the past couple of days are already sold to a DFWMAS member.

[melev]

Originally posted by wfgworks
I guess the concern I have is the corals that would be closer to the bottom of the tank or clams sitting on the bottom of the tank, getting enough light from a 250watt LB hanging 14" off the water surface.

Thats nearly 46" difference between the bulb and tank bottom.

Then this will blow you away. Dirty used bulbs, dirty SPIDER reflectors:



And somehow my reef has lived under this lighting for 3.5 years.

[wfgworks]

Thanks. I will wait to hear some of you feedback when you get them installed.

[bubbletip2]

Hey Jeremy,

Good to be back. I have a little more time now as things have kind of calmed down for me. I started a new job and have been getting my feet wet there, so I apologize for being AWOL for so long. I am also getting married in Hawaii this June and have been planning that out as well.

Because I was so busy I had not had a chance to perform that test like I had planned. I also had a good friend borrowing the meter for a couple months, so I did not have it to use. I will most likely continue that test when I replace my bulbs next. I will definitely have some new numbers and an updated pic for everyone in the near future.

Let me know when you want me over and I can certainly take some new pics for you. I can't wait to see Mike's tank again as I know how he grows coral and I can't imagine what I am about to see. It is always surprising when comign back even after two weeks from my last visit. I have been in this hobby a long time and have never met anyone that grows coral as quickly and as colorful as Mike.

Sorry to embarrass you Mike, but it is the truth. Something I definitely admire.

I am planning on doing some new testing of different light sources including VHO's,PC's, MH's, and T5's in a more controlled environment with fijiblue. It may be a while before it comes out. I can say this though, we are both determined to get some concrete results of what different light sources can do.

[bubbletip2]

Originally posted by melev
Then this will blow you away. Dirty used bulbs, dirty SPIDER reflectors:



And somehow my reef has lived under this lighting for 3.5 years.

I hear you Marc and I agree that intense lighting is not required to maintain corals. Their is a definite distinction between maintaining and thriving. This brings me to something I have wanted to discuss here, so thanks for the lead in

I do believe the numbers you were showing under Spider Reflectors are representative of many tanks in the hobby today. Light is not everything when it comes to growth as I stated in my last short novel. I think people should understand that many LFS's are also in the same boat and are maintaining coral at lower light levels than what people should expect form LumenBrights. Due to this people have to recognize that placement of your coral should not mimic the majority of tanks that coral is purchased out of including places like DR. Fosters & Smiths that I beleive keep their coral under 400w 20K bulbs and Lumenarc reflectors. Placing that same coral under a 400w 10K bulb in a LumenBright can be very stressful to an acclimating coral as an extreme example. I know there are reefkeepers out there that have succombed to this problem by thinking their coral is alright for a couple weeks only to come home that next day to a bleached coral. It was just a matter of time. Lately, I have been bringing my meter to local LFS's to measure the amount of light received by a specific coral that I would like to purchase so I can best acclimate that coral to my home reef. I still drop my photoperiod to further acclimate the coral and to not induce unwanted stress which may possibly stunt growth and fade color.

Sure we can maintain coral under lighting that is not so intense, but I think it is important to note that their is plenty of anecdotal evidence here of reefkeepers pushing the boundaries of light and we are witnessing some impressive growth and color. There is something to say about the differences of what corals can take in our oceans as opposed to what they can take in an artificial environment as our home reef aquariums.

[melev]

Btw, the super low PAR measurements from the magnetic ballast are possibly caused by a very long piece of wiring from the ballast to the reflector. That is how it came, and I never cut it short. I saw in this thread how it was recommended to keep those cords shorter. Too bad the old reflectors are already sold, or I'd test that once more. Oh well.

[grandp10]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bubbletip2
[B]That is a very good point. That's why I spent the money on one.
It's funny how we spend all this money on different lighting setups, water test kits, and expensive coral, but reefkeepers are so hesitant to grab a PAR meter. It will certainly last as long as you take care of it and have it calibrated whenever necessary. I really would like to see more reefkeepers using these devices because we are too reliant on everyone else to do this testing. Test things out yourselves so you can validate things and know what is best for your situation. I feel that testing tanks that are running with water is much more telling than open air tests that don't have anything to do with what is happening in our tanks.

[bubbletip2]

I hear you Marc. I felt the same way after I unloaded my LumenArcs. I had no idea I would want them back so bad just to do some testing.

That would be a good test and I wondered the same thing when we tested the PFO's. They come with like 20ft cords. One thing is for sure is my EVC ballast has a 20ft long or so cord too and the PAR numbers were definitely respectable. So this may just be due to a difference in frequency amongst ballasts.

fijiblue and I were talking today and he had mentioned that he felt 12K Reeflux are frequency specific bulbs and when you fire them with a ballast with a different frequency than what is required they will certainly not fire the same. This makes total sense as to why they look different and measure different on the ballasts I mentioned before.

I think I will enquire more about this...

[grandp10]

That didn't really post the way I thought it would. I was the person agreeing it is good to have a par meter and very glad I bought one.

[JRaquatics]

Congrats again Jim. When I was in Hawaii last June I saw alot of weddings there. Get a hold of me sometime and let me know what Islands you plan on visiting, there are some really cool spots I know of especially on kona.