All you EVER wanted to know about Southdown - Page 36

Fizz71 · 04/13/2006, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snarkys
id say that silica sand is "well tested in the field by other reefers" including the DSB and water chemistry experts like DR ron and RHF.

..that may be the case... I had SD available so I didn't bother to investigate it.

I certainly wouldn't say anything bad about it..I have no opinion on it either way. If I setup a new system I may be forced to read up on it further. I'll be doing a sump DSB next time though..only a little sand in the tank.

--Fizz

Snarkys · 04/13/2006, 10:20 AM

i'll let ya know , i got two tanks with 200# each of qucikrete sand in a remote DSB.

i looked all over for south down first , including calling a gang of out state home depots i then gave up and wasn't about to pay the ridiculous cost for caribsea crap.

techreef · 04/13/2006, 10:35 AM

Re: the remote DSB's, I'm curious what you guys experience with those. I had read that moving your DSB out of your display tank may or may not be a good idea because the main source of detritus (fish, shrimps, crabs, snails, etc.) is in the display tank and that detritus would not really reach the remote DSB as well as if the DSB was located in the display. I guess if you have good flow, the detritus gets mixed into the water column and reaches the remote DSB, but it was something that gave me pause.

Geez. Never imagined I'd spend so much time thinking about the sand in my tank. This hobby is amazing.

Snarkys · 04/13/2006, 10:55 AM

well my tanks will be a BB with a tremendous amount of flow so i don't think it will be much of an issue . I'm guessing that most of the detritus will get caught up in the cheato that is above the DSB. directly siphon out the rest.

Fizz71 · 04/13/2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by techreef
Re: the remote DSB's, I'm curious what you guys experience with those. I had read that moving your DSB out of your display tank may or may not be a good idea because the main source of detritus (fish, shrimps, crabs, snails, etc.) is in the display tank and that detritus would not really reach the remote DSB as well as if the DSB was located in the display. I guess if you have good flow, the detritus gets mixed into the water column and reaches the remote DSB, but it was something that gave me pause.

Yeah..that's definitely something to think about. I still plan on having sand so I'll still have the cleanup crew in there, it's the non-aerobic layer I won't have...which I thought was more about the water than the waste. I don't know...I had planned on doing research again before setting up the big mamma I'm looking to do within the next year. I'm concerned with long-term DSB crashing which is my first motivation to going with it in the sump.

I'll probably first set it up with no DSB and see how it fairs...I'm just tired of losing 6 inches of tank and seeing all the crap in the layers...along with the fear of a crash as my main concern. Like I said before...no right way.

--Fizz

Scuba_Dave · 08/10/2006, 07:33 AM

It's too bad that tens of thousands of pounds of Southdown sand was "wasted". It was a cheap resource, but not replenishable.
I tossed my SB from my 55g out. No-one wanted "used" sand.
I'm redoing my system & will be washing & re-using my Southdown sand from my 75g fuge & the 125g show

I also have 9 bags of Southdown stashed for my big tank setup

Southdown R.I.P.

WaterKeeper · 08/10/2006, 08:54 AM

Good to know Dave. Next time I'm in the Boston area I'll do a little midnight requisitioning at your house.

Psst! Hey buddy, want some hot Southdown?

Meisen · 08/10/2006, 09:32 AM

Just a couple of small notes on those planning on using silica for their DSBs....its significantly harder than aragonite/calcium based sands. You are much more likely to scratch your tank with it if you are not super careful. I have setup and run a number of tanks with silica DSBs and that was honestly the only issue I found vs calcium DSBs. The second thing is to watch the dust when you are rinsing it. Breathing it is a significant health hazard according to OSHA. Likely short exposure isnt going to kill you but hey, how hard is it to wear a mask.

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere in the thread....too tired to wade through the whole thing to check.

Meisen · 08/10/2006, 09:34 AM

One more thing, I am not sure I totally agree with the idea that there is no buffering going in a DSB of CaCO3. I havent looked into it as deeply as RHF has but I do notice that DSBs I have run have a signifcant loss of sand over the course of years. IE I have added about 80 lbs over 2 years to my system to maintain its 5" depth. Some of it is certainly compaction but thats a lot of sand....I have added sand to every bed I have run over time and I have never pulled out significantly more sand by weight than I started with at the end.

WaterKeeper · 08/10/2006, 12:14 PM

Meisen,

It is my belief that an aragonite sand does provide some buffering, especially in the deeper anaerobic levels. One of the first products of anaerobic decomposition is the formation of volatile organic acids (such as acetic). This, of course, reacts with the carbonate to form carbon dioxide and calcium acetate. I personally feel that using aragonite helps maintain alkalinity. The amount of calcium acetate formed is rather small and probably doesn't do much to maintain calcium levels.

This whole concept is much debated on the scientific forums but my own feeling is that "every little bit helps" and that aragonite, if you can get it at reasonable cost, is somewhat of a better choice than silicates.

One other thing, if you have dusty silica sand, just wet it down before use to eliminate the dust. In most cases there is really no health threat either way, unless you change sandbeds daily

, as the infrequent exposure is not the same as a miner or insulator would get.

Meisen · 08/10/2006, 12:46 PM

I agree Waterkeeper,
That mechanism you suggest makes sense to my chemically inert brain. A secondary breakdown of more CaCO3 from the C02 produced in the deeper layers can ccur as well. From what I understand, the deeper layers do run lower pH than the upper layers. I presume thats where the breakdown would occur if it were happening. Anyone want to wreck their pH probe (and possibly their tank) by driving it all the way down into their DSB?

Either way, it's still not much IME but if sand is dissolving at any rate....its doing some buffering. While its certainly not going to do much in a tank with fast growing SPS, it probably doesn't hurt either.

cbwhitney · 08/10/2006, 04:34 PM

I found that Toys R' Us carries the south down sand, at least here in Oregon. Home Depot here doesn't even know what south down is.

Scuba_Dave · 08/11/2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cbwhitney
I found that Toys R' Us carries the south down sand, at least here in Oregon. Home Depot here doesn't even know what south down is.

Be careful, just because it is labelled "Southdown" doesn't mean it is "THE" Southdown. The packaging has sometimes stayed the same, but the sand has changed
If it has the original blue bag it may be OK

And if you venture in my yard/house, watch out for my killer cat!!

WaterKeeper · 08/12/2006, 01:13 PM

Hi Whitney

To Reef Central

It could just be. There are concerned parents that don't want to use silica sands in the kid's sandbox. How about running the old vinegar test for us if the bags are cheap.

WantABigTank · 08/12/2006, 04:40 PM

FYI

I just saw some kolorScape sand at HomeDepot today in Coram NY.

Snarkys · 08/12/2006, 09:07 PM

its not the same

cbwhitney · 08/14/2006, 03:22 PM

Sure, but I am not sure what the Vinegar test is, could you elaborate?

WaterKeeper · 08/15/2006, 08:58 AM

Sure thing CB--take a small quantity of the sand in question, a quarter teaspoonful will do, and pour regular white vinegar over it. It should actively fizz and keep doing so until it dissolves if it is aragonite. Silica sand doesn't fizz or does so only for a brief second or so.

conchead · 08/15/2006, 04:33 PM

Got a bag of the kolorscape, ran the vinegar test,,,,,no fizzzzzzzzz

Snarkys · 08/15/2006, 04:52 PM

ya i think it is pretty well documented that it is not the same.

for what its work silica sand works well and it is certainly debatable that the calcium based sand really buffers all that much. most of our tanks never get a low enough PH to dissolve the calcium and buffer anything.

eyebedam · 01/09/2007, 05:39 PM

Im in Tennessee looking for 8 bags for myself & 92 bags for others.

Snarkys · 01/09/2007, 06:30 PM

doesn't exist anymore unless you find some random place that has some left over from years ago .

i can't remember the last time i saw a post of someone finding southdown/old castle in the store.

Grumpy Vet · 01/09/2007, 06:51 PM

It is kind of funny....even a few of the newer LFS in my area don't know what Southdown is..... I was trying to match the particulate size of sand I was giving my parents from my mature DSB of southdown for their new tank w/ what they were going to buy for their substrate.

WaterKeeper · 01/09/2007, 07:21 PM

Bout time Grump. Take charge of this old thread.

ThaNgBOm321 · 01/09/2007, 07:41 PM

dont it suck to not be able to find something that was soo easy to get and not almost impossible if not impossible....

right before i moved i threw out about 100 lbs of LS ( started out as old castle) now i need 75lbs of it back..... little did i know that the tree in front of my house got a awsome freebee!!!!

anyone know where the cheapest place to buy argonite in houston???

YzGyz

04/13/2006, 10:20 AM	#877
Snarkys RC Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 3,516	i'll let ya know , i got two tanks with 200# each of qucikrete sand in a remote DSB. i looked all over for south down first , including calling a gang of out state home depots i then gave up and wasn't about to pay the ridiculous cost for caribsea crap. __________________ Ryan B BRSTV & 52 Weeks of Reefing

04/13/2006, 10:55 AM	#879
Snarkys RC Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 3,516	well my tanks will be a BB with a tremendous amount of flow so i don't think it will be much of an issue . I'm guessing that most of the detritus will get caught up in the cheato that is above the DSB. directly siphon out the rest. __________________ Ryan B BRSTV & 52 Weeks of Reefing

08/10/2006, 08:54 AM	#882
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Good to know Dave. Next time I'm in the Boston area I'll do a little midnight requisitioning at your house. Psst! Hey buddy, want some hot Southdown? __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29 Last edited by WaterKeeper; 08/10/2006 at 12:17 PM.

08/10/2006, 09:32 AM	#883
Meisen Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,108	Just a couple of small notes on those planning on using silica for their DSBs....its significantly harder than aragonite/calcium based sands. You are much more likely to scratch your tank with it if you are not super careful. I have setup and run a number of tanks with silica DSBs and that was honestly the only issue I found vs calcium DSBs. The second thing is to watch the dust when you are rinsing it. Breathing it is a significant health hazard according to OSHA. Likely short exposure isnt going to kill you but hey, how hard is it to wear a mask. Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere in the thread....too tired to wade through the whole thing to check. __________________ "You dont know where they've been.....There are all kinds of animals pooping in them" -my lovely wife, only she didn't say poop. Current Tank Info: Tankless. Like your water heater.

08/10/2006, 09:34 AM	#884
Meisen Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,108	One more thing, I am not sure I totally agree with the idea that there is no buffering going in a DSB of CaCO3. I havent looked into it as deeply as RHF has but I do notice that DSBs I have run have a signifcant loss of sand over the course of years. IE I have added about 80 lbs over 2 years to my system to maintain its 5" depth. Some of it is certainly compaction but thats a lot of sand....I have added sand to every bed I have run over time and I have never pulled out significantly more sand by weight than I started with at the end. __________________ "You dont know where they've been.....There are all kinds of animals pooping in them" -my lovely wife, only she didn't say poop. Current Tank Info: Tankless. Like your water heater.

04/13/2006, 10:35 AM	#878
techreef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montclair, NJ Posts: 1,046	Re: the remote DSB's, I'm curious what you guys experience with those. I had read that moving your DSB out of your display tank may or may not be a good idea because the main source of detritus (fish, shrimps, crabs, snails, etc.) is in the display tank and that detritus would not really reach the remote DSB as well as if the DSB was located in the display. I guess if you have good flow, the detritus gets mixed into the water column and reaches the remote DSB, but it was something that gave me pause. Geez. Never imagined I'd spend so much time thinking about the sand in my tank. This hobby is amazing.

08/10/2006, 07:33 AM	#881
Scuba_Dave EMERTXE YID Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asylum, South of Boston, MA Posts: 10,362	It's too bad that tens of thousands of pounds of Southdown sand was "wasted". It was a cheap resource, but not replenishable. I tossed my SB from my 55g out. No-one wanted "used" sand. I'm redoing my system & will be washing & re-using my Southdown sand from my 75g fuge & the 125g show I also have 9 bags of Southdown stashed for my big tank setup Southdown R.I.P.

08/10/2006, 12:14 PM	#885
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Meisen, It is my belief that an aragonite sand does provide some buffering, especially in the deeper anaerobic levels. One of the first products of anaerobic decomposition is the formation of volatile organic acids (such as acetic). This, of course, reacts with the carbonate to form carbon dioxide and calcium acetate. I personally feel that using aragonite helps maintain alkalinity. The amount of calcium acetate formed is rather small and probably doesn't do much to maintain calcium levels. This whole concept is much debated on the scientific forums but my own feeling is that "every little bit helps" and that aragonite, if you can get it at reasonable cost, is somewhat of a better choice than silicates. One other thing, if you have dusty silica sand, just wet it down before use to eliminate the dust. In most cases there is really no health threat either way, unless you change sandbeds daily , as the infrequent exposure is not the same as a miner or insulator would get. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

08/10/2006, 12:46 PM	#886
Meisen Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,108	I agree Waterkeeper, That mechanism you suggest makes sense to my chemically inert brain. A secondary breakdown of more CaCO3 from the C02 produced in the deeper layers can ccur as well. From what I understand, the deeper layers do run lower pH than the upper layers. I presume thats where the breakdown would occur if it were happening. Anyone want to wreck their pH probe (and possibly their tank) by driving it all the way down into their DSB? Either way, it's still not much IME but if sand is dissolving at any rate....its doing some buffering. While its certainly not going to do much in a tank with fast growing SPS, it probably doesn't hurt either. __________________ "You dont know where they've been.....There are all kinds of animals pooping in them" -my lovely wife, only she didn't say poop. Current Tank Info: Tankless. Like your water heater.

08/10/2006, 04:34 PM	#887
cbwhitney Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 2	I found that Toys R' Us carries the south down sand, at least here in Oregon. Home Depot here doesn't even know what south down is.

08/12/2006, 01:13 PM	#889
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Hi Whitney *To Reef Central* It could just be. There are concerned parents that don't want to use silica sands in the kid's sandbox. How about running the old vinegar test for us if the bags are cheap. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

08/12/2006, 04:40 PM	#890
WantABigTank Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: L.I. N.Y. Posts: 158	FYI I just saw some kolorScape sand at HomeDepot today in Coram NY. __________________ When I die I want to come back as one of my fish! Any one of them! Current Tank Info: 135 RR Oceanic FO. 200 lbs South Down sand, 30 Gal sump, DIY 6 gal wet/dry, Magdrive 9.5 return, Magdrive 9.5 powered AquaC EV-180.

08/12/2006, 09:07 PM	#891
Snarkys RC Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 3,516	its not the same __________________ Ryan B BRSTV & 52 Weeks of Reefing

08/14/2006, 03:22 PM	#892
cbwhitney Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Salem, Oregon Posts: 2	Sure, but I am not sure what the Vinegar test is, could you elaborate?

08/15/2006, 08:58 AM	#893
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Sure thing CB--take a small quantity of the sand in question, a quarter teaspoonful will do, and pour regular white vinegar over it. It should actively fizz and keep doing so until it dissolves if it is aragonite. Silica sand doesn't fizz or does so only for a brief second or so. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

08/15/2006, 04:33 PM	#894
conchead Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: sebring,fl. Posts: 173	Got a bag of the kolorscape, ran the vinegar test,,,,,no fizzzzzzzzz

08/15/2006, 04:52 PM	#895
Snarkys RC Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 3,516	ya i think it is pretty well documented that it is not the same. for what its work silica sand works well and it is certainly debatable that the calcium based sand really buffers all that much. most of our tanks never get a low enough PH to dissolve the calcium and buffer anything. __________________ Ryan B BRSTV & 52 Weeks of Reefing

01/09/2007, 05:39 PM	#896
eyebedam Is Sailing the Seas Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Juliet TN Posts: 2,039	Im in Tennessee looking for 8 bags for myself & 92 bags for others. __________________ "There are many things you can refuse to do with a man. You can refuse to work for him, dine with him, or talk to him. But if he wants to fight, you have to oblige him." --Pat Buchanon “I’ve always believed that America’s government was a unique political system — one designed by geniuses so that it could be run by idiots. I was wrong. No system can be smart enough to survive this level of incompetence and recklessness by the people charged to run it." Thomas Friedman, NY Times Current Tank Info: 180 Gal plumbed in the basement with 200 gal sump. Decided to go aggressive from this point on.

01/09/2007, 06:30 PM	#897
Snarkys RC Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 3,516	doesn't exist anymore unless you find some random place that has some left over from years ago . i can't remember the last time i saw a post of someone finding southdown/old castle in the store. __________________ Ryan B BRSTV & 52 Weeks of Reefing

01/09/2007, 06:51 PM	#898
Grumpy Vet Reefer Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ellicott City, MD Posts: 282	It is kind of funny....even a few of the newer LFS in my area don't know what Southdown is..... I was trying to match the particulate size of sand I was giving my parents from my mature DSB of southdown for their new tank w/ what they were going to buy for their substrate.

01/09/2007, 07:21 PM	#899
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Bout time Grump. Take charge of this old thread. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

01/09/2007, 07:41 PM	#900
ThaNgBOm321 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tx, houston Posts: 792	dont it suck to not be able to find something that was soo easy to get and not almost impossible if not impossible.... right before i moved i threw out about 100 lbs of LS ( started out as old castle) now i need 75lbs of it back..... little did i know that the tree in front of my house got a awsome freebee!!!! anyone know where the cheapest place to buy argonite in houston??? YzGyz __________________ YzGyz = Wise Guys ohhh and cows go MOOO!!! 2nd best way is to learn from ones own mistakes but the best way to learn is from others... thx to Randy and so many other for making reefing that much easier