Stop worrying about feeding your corals. - Page 4

seapug · 07/12/2007, 04:41 PM

wow, didn't look at this thread for a couple days.. looks I incited quite a debate here.

Interesting that the people who seemed to object most to what I said didn't seem to really read what I wrote. I didn't say corals don't need food sources, I said you don't need to worry about dumping stuff in your tank and target feeding with expensive junk to get them to live and grow. My corals get fed what they can capture opportunistically. Just like nature.

People who think that corals developed stinging tentacles and large portions of their bodies devoted to feeding because their environment is constantly saturated with food and nutrients do not understand Evolution. Evolution is "lazy." It doesn't make things it doesn't need. As I stated before, these are adaptations for capturing sparse prey. Evolutionary forces would see no reason to make an animal photosynthetic and expend energy developing numerous feeding structures if food was plentiful in an environment. The creature would "evolve" a mouth and a stomach and nothing else, as that is all it would need to survive. That is how "Evolution" works.

I've never put phytoplankton in my tank, yet it has a huge population of mysids and amphipods. They must be feeding and breeding for some reason, but I do know it's not because of the thousands of dollars of goop, gunk and equipment I dump and plumb into the tank. I can only assume it's because I focus more on creating a healthy habitat than figuring out what overpriced food I fits in a Zoanthid's puny little worthless mouth. That's what I bought the expensive lights for.

I have clams, mushrooms, zoanthids, acros and LPS in my tank that grow at astounding rates. It may be hard for many people to believe, but I've never put oyster eggs, cyclopeez, "pearls" or any other such expensive goodies in my tank.

There's this thing called patience...

I'm an avid reader and have read all the articles that were referred as well as many others. Yes, "live food" densities can be much higher on reefs than they are in our tanks, but toxic byproducts such as phosphates and nitrates do NOT accumulate in the ocean like they do in the closed system of a typical aquarium that has constant inputs of food. When they do, Crown of thorns starfish, jellyfish, and algae take over, fueled by the pollution of what could be considered "food" by many creatures when present in natural, moderate amounts.

The point I was trying to make is this-- In this age of endless new foods and gadgets for a tank, do not obsess so much on feeding your corals to the point where you start deteriorating the overall environment of the tank. Much of what the corals need to live and grow develops naturally in a well maintained and properly stocked tank. People who are new to the hobby are anxious to see their tanks "take off" and enjoy seeing corals eat and grow, so it's very easy for them to get way too wrapped up in "instant graticification" trinkets and concoctions so widely available now without understanding how it can impact the overall health of the tank environment.

At what point does a Zoanthid stop benefitting from eating oyster eggs and starts being harmed by overall environmental pollution caused by a well meaning hobbyist who thinks they must constantly "feed" to keep them alive and see growth? I don't know and I don't care because they grow just fine in my tank without it. I think that's something worth sharing.

Aquarist007 · 07/13/2007, 09:00 AM

wow--seapug--thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response.
As far as debate goes--IMO its probably the most useful way to learn new concepts or have misconceptions corrected than actual experience itself.
Science plays such a big part in this hobby--some observation and questions skills are very valuable.
You should be commended for starting such a good debate not incited for it

Evolution and adaptation are two concepts that sometimes can be treated as the same processes but they are very different.
The general consensus is that reef fish coral and inverts have a harder time adapting to rapid changes in their environment as say counterparts in fresh water.
We have to be very aware also that we are taking our corals etc from differing envirnoments a putting them together with each other.
although water chemistry and temp, pH and alkal are pretty stable over the oceans who you live with and what you eat can differ greatly. eg flower coral has evolved to be able to survive with very low light but has to be feed meat---it will not survive with with flake food and even the best light like other corals that will do just fine with bright light.
Being relatively new to the marine part of the hobby I have found I rely on specifics from alot of experts here.---I don't agree with treating all the same
Therefore I again appreciate all the time you and others dedicate to the success and continued happiness with the reef hobby

RichConley · 07/13/2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur

Evolution and adaptation are two concepts that sometimes can be treated as the same processes but they are very different.
The general consensus is that reef fish coral and inverts have a harder time adapting to rapid changes in their environment as say counterparts in fresh water.
We have to be very aware also that we are taking our corals etc from differing envirnoments a putting them together with each other.
although water chemistry and temp, pH and alkal are pretty stable over the oceans who you live with and what you eat can differ greatly. eg flower coral has evolved to be able to survive with very low light but has to be feed meat---it will not survive with with flake food and even the best light like other corals that will do just fine with bright light.

This is a pet peave of mine.

Saltwater fish do NOT have a hard time adapting to changes. Theyre much more adapted to it than freshwater fish.

The idea that the ocean never changes temperature, or pH, etc, is total lunacy. Reefs swing 10+ degrees EVERY DAY. In costal lagoons, salinity swings wildly when tides change.

As to the flower coral (goniopora?) I can show you pics of a whole bunch of them that are in great shape, have grown huge and been fragged hundreds of times, and not once ever been target fed.

Aquarist007 · 07/13/2007, 09:52 AM

Firstly as I have stated over and over again I appreciate misconcepts of mine being caught by you guys--thank you

I believe I did say that marine fish had a harder time adapting then fresh water fish--- and this could be a misconception also- but hasn't it been stated many times that marine fish can adapt providing the conditions are with acceptable ranges--get outside the range then they run into problems??

Sorry i meant sunflower coral---if this is a misconception let me know because I have wasted alot of time feeding this coral mysis shrimp that I didn't need to and dealing with cynobacteria on the substrated etc because of it.

RichConley · 07/13/2007, 10:00 AM

sunflower coral? Are we talking sun polyps? Theyre non photosynthetic and definitely DO need to be fed (or have appreciable food in the tank).

As to "being outside the range," people regularly take saltwater fish down to 1.009 salinity to deal with ich. Thats a HUGE change. I think the whole "saltwater fish being tough" really comes down to $$. Somebody goes out and loses a dozen tetras, and theyre out $12. Lose a dozen anthias, and you're out $600. Theres more loss, and fish aren't as replaceable. People lose a TON of freshwater fish.

chevegan · 07/13/2007, 10:10 AM

i didn't even bother to read all 4 pages so this MAY be a re-post

If any of you are divers you will know very well that prey capture is almost non existent in reefs other than miro-organizms that live in the water column. In fact to prove that point I can tell you that I stopped feeding my coral after the 6th month of being in this hobby when reading about many many tanks going without all additives bar A B supplements.

I have a 3 year old sebae anemone that has lived in my 12NC with absolutly zero "food" with phenomanal growth. My other tanks with the A B have better coral growth but there is an obvious reason for that as trace elements are vital for improved growth.

But since we are talking about things like Zooplankton, I'm assuming, it's not needed by any means. How I look at it is that you end up adding more bio-decay to your water column increasing phosphates. So the negetives cover over what benefits you have versus a tank with light-only growth + A B. supps.

This info is a compilation of personal experience, friends articles as well as what I've seen from very successful reefers here on RC.

RichConley · 07/13/2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chevegan

I have a 3 year old sebae anemone that has lived in my 12NC with absolutly zero "food" with phenomanal growth. My other tanks with the A B have better coral growth but there is an obvious reason for that as trace elements are vital for improved growth.

If your sebae fits in a 12g NC after 3 years, you're not getting phenomenal growth. At 3 years they should be 24" across.

I agree with you though in principle though.

Aquarist007 · 07/13/2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
sunflower coral? Are we talking sun polyps? Theyre non photosynthetic and definitely DO need to be fed (or have appreciable food in the tank).

As to "being outside the range," people regularly take saltwater fish down to 1.009 salinity to deal with ich. Thats a HUGE change. I think the whole "saltwater fish being tough" really comes down to $$. Somebody goes out and loses a dozen tetras, and theyre out $12. Lose a dozen anthias, and you're out $600. Theres more loss, and fish aren't as replaceable. People lose a TON of freshwater fish.

yes--sun polyps

I hear you---but this is a very hard misconception to swallow.
In my area the experts tell us not to even think about having sps coral for a year until we have pristine water. They define prestine water as water with next to no variations in temp, alkalinity, temp, pH---in fact it goes deeper then that---I was discouraged alot from having a reef because they take alot more work then fresh esp with getting the chemistry right on(I don't understand that one any more)
You hear story after story how someone went away for the weekend--came home the water was 90 degreese and they lost everything.
I know 220g personally(June's tank of the month)he gives most of the credit of his great corals to limiting changes or variations in the water.

So how does an relatively inexperinece one like myself put this all into perspective?

chevegan · 07/13/2007, 10:34 AM

i got my sebae at 2" and is now about 15" across.

burton14e7 · 07/13/2007, 10:34 AM

Crazy thread, very informative and I like the links to empiral data. A thread like this with centralized information is so much more helpful than skimming RC everyday, it's nice for a gem like this to pop up. TY

The only things in my tank that gave taken off growth wise when I started dosing coral food is one of my acan frags. I do see visual poly responses on my SPS when I dose though so I'm assuming its beneficial.

RichConley · 07/13/2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chevegan
i got my sebae at 2" and is now about 15" across.

wow, I've never seen one that small.

I got mine at about 6-8" and was up around 2 feet in a year. You're in for a good time... I hope you dont plan on keeping any corals with that thing.

Clowns are so cool with an anemone like that, huh?

1F2FRFBF · 07/13/2007, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by polwick
I feed my corals pork chops and table scraps. They gobble them right up.

That's only gonna make them fat and sloppy and smelly, and they'll have the runs all the time.

Anyway, the biggest difference I noticed in the growth and color of the corals in my tank was when I upgraded my lighting - I have an AB 10K running now and it's really been amazing to watch these things starting to color up and stretch out. I feed no differently than I did before.

aquatron123 · 07/21/2007, 07:27 AM

I have been in the reef hobby for a couple years and I now feed my corals homegrown phytoplankton as well as rotifers and copepods I culture. I dose calcium, Iodide, and a little strontmium and moly. My coral frags grew very slow but are growing very fast now after adding the phyto daily along with copepods and rotifers added to my refugium every week.

Aquarist007 · 07/21/2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1F2FRFBF
That's only gonna make them fat and sloppy and smelly, and they'll have the runs all the time.
fish can get gastrial enteritus???

Anyway, the biggest difference I noticed in the growth and color of the corals in my tank was when I upgraded my lighting - I have an AB 10K running now and it's really been amazing to watch these things starting to color up and stretch out. I feed no differently than I did before.

Well done---well said----I think we forget very quickly coral course 101----all corals might be classified as carnivours but they do quite well by the algae they hold. The ones that do not possess the coral--we have to feed. Certainly feed all of them a couple of times a week with a quality phyto.

I just got carried away over the last three weeks with home made phyto----for the first time since the tank has been up I have a red slime algae on the substrate--that just isn't going away.
What started this all was slowed growth in the corals--but what didn't dawn on me is that my attinics and halides haven't been changed for 10 months.

07/12/2007, 04:41 PM	#76
seapug Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 4980 ft. Posts: 7,954 Blog Entries: 1	wow, didn't look at this thread for a couple days.. looks I incited quite a debate here. Interesting that the people who seemed to object most to what I said didn't seem to really read what I wrote. I didn't say corals don't need food sources, I said you don't need to worry about dumping stuff in your tank and target feeding with expensive junk to get them to live and grow. My corals get fed what they can capture opportunistically. Just like nature. People who think that corals developed stinging tentacles and large portions of their bodies devoted to feeding because their environment is constantly saturated with food and nutrients do not understand Evolution. Evolution is "lazy." It doesn't make things it doesn't need. As I stated before, these are adaptations for capturing sparse prey. Evolutionary forces would see no reason to make an animal photosynthetic and expend energy developing numerous feeding structures if food was plentiful in an environment. The creature would "evolve" a mouth and a stomach and nothing else, as that is all it would need to survive. That is how "Evolution" works. I've never put phytoplankton in my tank, yet it has a huge population of mysids and amphipods. They must be feeding and breeding for some reason, but I do know it's not because of the thousands of dollars of goop, gunk and equipment I dump and plumb into the tank. I can only assume it's because I focus more on creating a healthy habitat than figuring out what overpriced food I fits in a Zoanthid's puny little worthless mouth. That's what I bought the expensive lights for. I have clams, mushrooms, zoanthids, acros and LPS in my tank that grow at astounding rates. It may be hard for many people to believe, but I've never put oyster eggs, cyclopeez, "pearls" or any other such expensive goodies in my tank. There's this thing called patience... I'm an avid reader and have read all the articles that were referred as well as many others. Yes, "live food" densities can be much higher on reefs than they are in our tanks, but toxic byproducts such as phosphates and nitrates do NOT accumulate in the ocean like they do in the closed system of a typical aquarium that has constant inputs of food. When they do, Crown of thorns starfish, jellyfish, and algae take over, fueled by the pollution of what could be considered "food" by many creatures when present in natural, moderate amounts. The point I was trying to make is this-- In this age of endless new foods and gadgets for a tank, do not obsess so much on feeding your corals to the point where you start deteriorating the overall environment of the tank. Much of what the corals need to live and grow develops naturally in a well maintained and properly stocked tank. People who are new to the hobby are anxious to see their tanks "take off" and enjoy seeing corals eat and grow, so it's very easy for them to get way too wrapped up in "instant graticification" trinkets and concoctions so widely available now without understanding how it can impact the overall health of the tank environment. At what point does a Zoanthid stop benefitting from eating oyster eggs and starts being harmed by overall environmental pollution caused by a well meaning hobbyist who thinks they must constantly "feed" to keep them alive and see growth? I don't know and I don't care because they grow just fine in my tank without it. I think that's something worth sharing. __________________ insert clever saying here. Current Tank Info: 200 gallon custom Marineland DD peninsular tank. LPS dominated mixed reef. Previous 90 gallon mixed reef TOTM April 2009.

07/13/2007, 09:00 AM	#77
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	wow--seapug--thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. As far as debate goes--IMO its probably the most useful way to learn new concepts or have misconceptions corrected than actual experience itself. Science plays such a big part in this hobby--some observation and questions skills are very valuable. You should be commended for starting such a good debate not incited for it Evolution and adaptation are two concepts that sometimes can be treated as the same processes but they are very different. The general consensus is that reef fish coral and inverts have a harder time adapting to rapid changes in their environment as say counterparts in fresh water. We have to be very aware also that we are taking our corals etc from differing envirnoments a putting them together with each other. although water chemistry and temp, pH and alkal are pretty stable over the oceans who you live with and what you eat can differ greatly. eg flower coral has evolved to be able to survive with very low light but has to be feed meat---it will not survive with with flake food and even the best light like other corals that will do just fine with bright light. Being relatively new to the marine part of the hobby I have found I rely on specifics from alot of experts here.---I don't agree with treating all the same Therefore I again appreciate all the time you and others dedicate to the success and continued happiness with the reef hobby __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

07/13/2007, 09:52 AM	#79
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	Firstly as I have stated over and over again I appreciate misconcepts of mine being caught by you guys--thank you I believe I did say that marine fish had a harder time adapting then fresh water fish--- and this could be a misconception also- but hasn't it been stated many times that marine fish can adapt providing the conditions are with acceptable ranges--get outside the range then they run into problems?? Sorry i meant sunflower coral---if this is a misconception let me know because I have wasted alot of time feeding this coral mysis shrimp that I didn't need to and dealing with cynobacteria on the substrated etc because of it. __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

07/13/2007, 10:00 AM	#80
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	sunflower coral? Are we talking sun polyps? Theyre non photosynthetic and definitely DO need to be fed (or have appreciable food in the tank). As to "being outside the range," people regularly take saltwater fish down to 1.009 salinity to deal with ich. Thats a HUGE change. I think the whole "saltwater fish being tough" really comes down to $$. Somebody goes out and loses a dozen tetras, and theyre out $12. Lose a dozen anthias, and you're out $600. Theres more loss, and fish aren't as replaceable. People lose a TON of freshwater fish. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

07/13/2007, 10:10 AM	#81
chevegan Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Colorado springs, co Posts: 1,614	divers i didn't even bother to read all 4 pages so this MAY be a re-post If any of you are divers you will know very well that prey capture is almost non existent in reefs other than miro-organizms that live in the water column. In fact to prove that point I can tell you that I stopped feeding my coral after the 6th month of being in this hobby when reading about many many tanks going without all additives bar A B supplements. I have a 3 year old sebae anemone that has lived in my 12NC with absolutly zero "food" with phenomanal growth. My other tanks with the A B have better coral growth but there is an obvious reason for that as trace elements are vital for improved growth. But since we are talking about things like Zooplankton, I'm assuming, it's not needed by any means. How I look at it is that you end up adding more bio-decay to your water column increasing phosphates. So the negetives cover over what benefits you have versus a tank with light-only growth + A B. supps. This info is a compilation of personal experience, friends articles as well as what I've seen from very successful reefers here on RC. __________________ Everything is copasetic. Reefing on a budget Current Tank Info: Do it right the first time, save up, spend where it counts OR end up another craigslist ad of money lost.--------Why is this hobby so damn expensive??!-------

07/13/2007, 10:34 AM	#84
chevegan Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Colorado springs, co Posts: 1,614	i got my sebae at 2" and is now about 15" across. __________________ Everything is copasetic. Reefing on a budget Current Tank Info: Do it right the first time, save up, spend where it counts OR end up another craigslist ad of money lost.--------Why is this hobby so damn expensive??!-------

07/13/2007, 10:34 AM	#85
burton14e7 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Keller, Tx Posts: 2,009	Crazy thread, very informative and I like the links to empiral data. A thread like this with centralized information is so much more helpful than skimming RC everyday, it's nice for a gem like this to pop up. TY The only things in my tank that gave taken off growth wise when I started dosing coral food is one of my acan frags. I do see visual poly responses on my SPS when I dose though so I'm assuming its beneficial. __________________ Go Lakers! Current Tank Info: Currently awaiting relapse. Last edited by burton14e7; 07/13/2007 at 10:42 AM.

07/21/2007, 07:27 AM	#88
aquatron123 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Clarksville, TN Posts: 35	I have been in the reef hobby for a couple years and I now feed my corals homegrown phytoplankton as well as rotifers and copepods I culture. I dose calcium, Iodide, and a little strontmium and moly. My coral frags grew very slow but are growing very fast now after adding the phyto daily along with copepods and rotifers added to my refugium every week.