N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by tmz

If the pellets are an organic carbon source which I believe they are. it would be of benefit to heterotrophic bacteria. Autotrophs don't need organic carbon and do fine with CO2.

Can you explain to me what the difference is between autotrophs and hetrotrophic bacteria ?
my understanding of micro biology elementary .

greetingzz tntneon

[thejuggernaut]

Heterotrophic bacteria are the first to develop on a sand bed. Heterothrophs are simply bacteria that use organic compounds for their carbon source. Just like you Newbies, they chow down on just about anything that is placed in front of them. When the compound is something like a protein, that contains nitrogen, some of that nitrogen is excreted as ammonia. This of course is toxic to fish and invertebrates.

There is another group of bacteria, called autotrophs, that get their carbon directly from carbon dioxide. As an energy source they oxidize ammonia to create nitrite and nitrates. The problem with autotrophs is they do not grow nearly as fast as heterotrophs (the only thing slower is that Newbie mind of yours) and it takes time to seed a UGF with sufficient numbers to do much good. Usually it takes 7-10 days for enough nitrifying bacteria to populate a filter and allow it to convert ammonia to less toxic forms. It is interesting that there is a large debate on which bacteria actually accomplish nitrification in an aquarium. Candidates are, but not limited to, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosococcus, Nitrosospira, Nitrobacter, Nitrosovibrio, Nitrosolobus, and Nitrospina. No matter what the genus is involved, the heterothrophs produce the ammonia and carbon dioxide on which the nitrifying bacteria live so they form a close association with them in the filter media.

This is a quote from a thread started by Waterkeeper. He gives a pretty good definition of different types of filters both biological and mechanical...check it out...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=707105

P.S. this quote I got was off the top of page 2.

[tatuvaaj]

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm

[kaskiles]

Originally Posted by thejuggernaut

running a fish only tank that doesnt have alot of live rock.

Ok, you and Waterkeeper have changed my mind. I guess you would want a trickle filter or fluidized sand filter with the fluidized biopellet filter.

[ksed]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm

Tatu

Are the pellets not working for you or is there some thing going on in the tank?

Thanks

Kevin

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... We advise using 0.5-1 liter of pellets per 500 liter of system volume, and adding 100 ml of pellets every 3-6 months. Of note, these ratios depend on tank conditions and are strongly influenced by feeding regimes and livestock. When heavy feeding is required, we advise to combine the pellets with standard phosphate adsorbents. ...

Biopellet description
http://www.reefinterests.com/content/view/18/36/

Shouldn't be surprising that a phosphate binder may be required in some circumstances.


HTH

[thejuggernaut]

Originally Posted by kaskiles

Ok, you and Waterkeeper have changed my mind. I guess you would want a trickle filter or fluidized sand filter with the fluidized biopellet filter.

yea...that is what I was figuring...im def waiting till I hear from a few more people trying these out. But it they work as well as other are stating it might just be a set it and forget it kinda deal...

[tatuvaaj]

Originally Posted by ksed

Are the pellets not working for you or is there some thing going on in the tank?

Kevin,

Just too much phosphate stored on surfaces. I just received 5 liters of high capacity GFO so I'm hoping that will take care of it

[thejuggernaut]

From what I understand liverock and sand beds can hold a lot of phosphates. Just gotta give it time to leach back out.

[ksed]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

Kevin,

Just too much phosphate stored on surfaces. I just received 5 liters of high capacity GFO so I'm hoping that will take care of it

Thanks Tatu

Keep us updated, it should come back down again'

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by thejuggernaut

...
This is a quote from a thread started by Waterkeeper. He gives a pretty good definition of different types of filters both biological and mechanical...check it out...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=707105

P.S. this quote I got was off the top of page 2.

Thx juggernaut ,

very informatif link , it was a big read !!
But as ever , it`s a one of the waterkeeper , informatif and funny the same time

greetingz tntneon

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by tatuvaaj

Too much happening in my tank to give any meaningful update

I'll have to get out all the extra PO4 with GFO, concentration back @ 0.1-0.2 ppm

sad to hear tatuvaaj ,
Did you had loss of some kind (hermits , snails ..) ?

You did just stopped your regular vodka dosing , that can induce increasing PO4 numbers , your skimmer was broken , and you have a new one now , i think the system has to cure a little bit from those changes.
If i was you i would use the pellets in a fluidizing bed , like you did before.
I was amazed how simple it was to make one , a small narrow glass vaze put in the sump , where a drainpipe from display or recycle line from return pump drains can create the fluidizing motion for the pellets.

I have positif results with the pellets , cyano is not so present on the sand anymore and GHa is very slow moving out
Water very clear , corals coloration en PE are also great !
NO3 stays at a stable 0.2 ~0.5 ppm and PO4 is zero

greetingzz tntneon

[Frogmanx82]

Any response from soft corals which tend to need a bit of nitrate and phosphate?

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

Any response from soft corals which tend to need a bit of nitrate and phosphate?

I don`t have any softies .
I have sps (acro,stylopora ,fungia ,favia) ,lps(tortch & hammer) and some zoas (mean green , brown ones and pink) and they all do fine.
Only my Chaeto is growing much slower and i noticed less bioactivity in the chaeto ball , this i had with normal vodka dosing too.

greetingzz tntneon

[Frogmanx82]

There hasn't been any discussion on skimmer performance. For vodka dosing it's all about getting a thicker darker skimmate. Are there skimmer recommendations that go along with this? I don't have a sump and I'm under skimming because I just don't have the space. Does this rule out use of this product?

I have softies and some lps so I don't need pristine water, but I would like to control diatoms and GHA.

[tatuvaaj]

Originally Posted by tntneon

sad to hear tatuvaaj ,
Did you had loss of some kind (hermits , snails ..) ?

No, I don't think those are so sensitive. Most azooxanthellae animals are suffering though, especially the "Blueberry gorgonian" and a large Ptilocaulis sp. sponge. The gorgonian was growing very well but now has only a few polyps alive

You did just stopped your regular vodka dosing , that can induce increasing PO4 numbers , your skimmer was broken , and you have a new one now , i think the system has to cure a little bit from those changes.

Absolutely! I have now added two liters of DIAKAT-B+ and phosphate is already @ 0.07 ppm.

If i was you i would use the pellets in a fluidizing bed , like you did before.

Already did that Although mine is not really a "fluidizing" but I installed a long flexible air stone gadget on the bottom of the canister and I use a timer to start small air pump every 12 hours. This drives out most of the bacteria.

Water very clear , corals coloration en PE are also great !

I also noticed better water clarity when I started to use the pellets. I haven't noticed any difference in coral pigmentation but the colors were OK to start with. And my Oxymonacanthus longirostris takes care of PE

[tntneon]

...And tatuvaaj is the system recovering ?

For me the pellets work fine the GHA is definitly moving away , as some caulerpa that was hidding between my bali polyps (nothing worse) i had forgot.
Is complely away.
No3 is less than 0.2 ppm now on the salifer kit ( Po4 stayed zero) .

In the evening , when actinics are only on , i extra manualy stir the bed of swirling pellets to get some bacteria (plankton?) from the fluidizing box to my display.
I never have massive build up of bacteria in the box , but if i stir it rough there comes an extra little bit of bacterial detrius or something free to feed the corals.

greetingzz tntneon

[Genetics]

Tntneon, are you thinking that these solid forms of pellets will be enough to completely remove the necessity of daily organic dosing? I would think that it would be beneficial if small amounts of the pellets would dissolve into the water column to help promote bacterioplankton. However, maybe enough of that is being generated at the sight of the pellets?

[Frogmanx82]

So when can these be ordered in the US?

[tatuvaaj]

Originally Posted by tntneon

...And tatuvaaj is the system recovering

Yes

I've ordered more Biopellets, I'm going to use 2-2.5 liters. According to manufacturer that should be enough for my tank (240 gallons). I hope I will be able to stop DOC dosing completely. But we'll see...

[tatuvaaj]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

So when can these be ordered in the US?

You can order them from http://www.npbiopellets.com.

Ordering from them will also help coralscience.org

[Frogmanx82]

Well, I sent an email telling them I would like to try a liter. My nitrates aren't bad, barely showing any color on the test, but phosphate is high at 1 ppm. I could also go with gfo but it would be nice to get the nitrates non detect.

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Genetics

Tntneon, are you thinking that these solid forms of pellets will be enough to completely remove the necessity of daily organic dosing? I would think that it would be beneficial if small amounts of the pellets would dissolve into the water column to help promote bacterioplankton. However, maybe enough of that is being generated at the sight of the pellets?

-For my system (witch is a small one) , it looks that it`s enough carbon dosing .
I`ve withnesed a few times that i had some bacterial strings on the background , so bacterial action in the display is also higher i think.
And every day when istir the pellets there comes some extra bacterioplancton (or detrius from the bacteria ?) in the system that the corals do like.

I`m very happy with them , no3 testkit is`t coloring at all as does the po4 kit
the coral `s all seem to be very happy (great PE and growth).

I dose every day :salifer all in one (3 drops @25 g)
salifer calcium plus (2 ml @25 g)
easy life carbonate plus (1/2 spoon)
2 times a week :easylife trace elements (0.5ml @ 25g)
easylifefluoride / iodide complex (2ml@25g)

This is all i dose in combination with the n/p reducing pellets , no additional vodka or bacteria are dosed.

-The only down fall is the stagnating growth of my macro algea in the refugium and less pods in it then w/o carbon dosing.

greetingzz tntneon

[tntneon]

Originally Posted by Frogmanx82

Well, I sent an email telling them I would like to try a liter. My nitrates aren't bad, barely showing any color on the test, but phosphate is high at 1 ppm. I could also go with gfo but it would be nice to get the nitrates non detect.

I don`t know what they do and in what time span for the reduction of po4 .
I never had any issues with po4 (always reading zero).
But i`m very curious to know , keep us informed

greetingzz tntneon

[Genetics]

Tntneon, this will be very interesting to watch over the next few months. Any idea what could be in these pellets that allow them to last for such a duration?