Ich POLL!

[syrinx]

If you want to know what they think- just ask them-they generally avail themselves to offer an opinion in a timely mannor. I think in the real world-not the 10% of reefers online here-most tanks have ich present in some form. Thats just my opinion-no better or worse than any other on a subject that can`t be quantified. I can`t offer if one tank is ich free just because a fish had ich in it 12 years ago, was taken out and treated and still thrives- while the tank never saw treatment- the tank has a UV,but thats proven not to kill off ich. Will it reappear one day? It might-longest I have seen a tank go asymptomatic is 6 years-but maybe it will happen. All I know is that all tanks that people believ are 100% ich free- have no way to prove it either. The key is if you are going to embark on any treatment program- do it all the way- the right way, so you are insured the best possible result.

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

Yes, having an ich free tank isn't that difficult. I think real experts like Fenner, Goemans, and others would doubt that ich is present in most tanks. "Many" and "most" can be miles apart....I think you're correct on the "many". I also think the owners of those tanks are going to realize the seriousness of their situation before long. I seldom make statements like the following, but here goes. I'd bet that if you could poll only owners of tanks that have been running smoothly for, say 5 years, and have kept several fish alive for at least 5 years; you would find very few of them who thought they had ich in their tanks.

I think you and I are largely on the same page.

I will diverge a bit though and at least suggest that there are at least some very knowledgable and successful reef keepers that have accepted "managing" ick. It definately can be eradicated and or kept out of a system, but in some cases the stress of treament maybe harder on the fish than living with the parisite.

Personally I am pretty confident that my system is clean, and I will not add any new fish without treating them first. That said, I have killed more than one fish doing preventiitive treatment.

IMO either approach (eradication vs managment) has it's risks and it's benifits. I won't call either approach wrong, but I will cry foul when I seen misinformation posted (like ick appearing out of thin air, ick learning to hide, ick universally being present in every tank.......).

[briankmarsh1980]

Then I guess it was only in my tank before I killed off the parasite but during the day no visible
Parasites but if I turned the lights on at night bam fish would have them on them. And when I first started the parasites you could see all the time. After I pulled out all fish and QT them for 2 months I'm ich free. Everything I stated is just my experiences/opinions. I have only been reefing for 2 years so I'm still a newbe

[jimmyj7090]

IME sometimes the spots can be very hard to see under one type of lighting, and then much more evident under different light (like maybe the wild color shifts some MH lamps go through as they fire up, or flashlight light). I don't doubt your experience, I just question the explanation.

I seriously doubt that ick gets "smart", and as I understand it the spots are on the fish for at least a few days, then drop off. I don't see how they could hide.

I once QT'd a fish that I got locally and was confident was clean in the first place. QT had T5 lighting but with a kind of odd bulb combo. Fish looked perfect for 2 weeks. I moved it to my display and INSTANTLY saw that it was completely peppered with ick.

I believe you, I just don't think your parisites are that smart

[briankmarsh1980]

I could totally be wrong. I watched how they acted for over a year and noticed at first there would be spots all the time and after a few months my tank looked ich free. After about 6 months or so a fellow reefer was telling me that the ich will adjust to my lighting.... So I started testing the theory I would turn on my lights a few hours after they went off and sure enough fish had spots and I would do it again a couple hrs before the lights would be on and there would be spots. But during the day under normal lighting schedule no spots. Its was like that for another 6 months or so until I did a tank reset and started over. Maybe my parasites came from an ivy league school lol but it seamed to make sense. But yeah I guess its a theory I think to be true.

[bowfinger]

I don't buy the every tank has ich. You kill it off 100% it does not come back. In the wild the disease can not overcome a fish like it can in the confines of a tank. Reef fish fight it off well and they come from localized areas, but for example my Mappa Puffer does not handle it well like the other tank mates. I am sure his habits don't get him a case of ich in such large numbers? Until they prove a good that comes out of ich, I plan to remove it.

[AquaVolGP]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

Ya, unfortuantely, there are quite a few people here at RC who regularly post to others on how to approach parasite treatment and prevention who themselves are very inexperienced and/or misinformed about the topic. This is very troubling because it is one thing when you decide for yourself to defy accepted protocal and treatment, but it is quite another when you advise a very inexperienced hobbyist to do the same. I find it very morally offensive when someone takes it upon themselves to cause another hobbyists to risk the very lives of their fish based on misinformation when the hobbyist does not yet understand the risk he or she is taking. Not that post count alone is a reliable indicator, but I would recommend that no one follow the advice on this topic of anyone who has less than 1000 posts here at RC because there are so many people here at RC who regularlly post incorrect information on this topic. Those with a 1000 posts or more are much more likely to know what they are talking about with respect to this topic. Since the very lives of our fish depend on accurate information in terms of parasite prevention or treatment, I think that this approach is wise, although not full proof in terms of eliminating the vast amount of misinformation posted.

I joined in 06 and have about 100 posts - must know nothing. I disagree with this post. I see what you are getting at. maybe use post count as indicator. too many variables to discern how experienced someone is.

[RBU1]

Listen people the bottom line.....You can have a crypt free tank but treatment must be done correctly. If you are willing to take the time to QT EVERYTHING wet....Treat every fish with copper or hypo and constantly observe before and after treatment for several weeks it can be done. I thought I was doing the right thing and still have crypt in my main tank. After going thru tearing my tank down twice I am not doing it again. So apparently I screwed something up with my QT process. Now I am going to hopefully "manage" what I have to deal with. I will still QT fish but will not treat unless I really have to. The hope is to get the fish strong enough in QT to give them a better chance to fight whats in the main tank and keep out what ever othe rparasites are out there.

[RegalAngel]

I suggest that anyone that is having issues with Marine Ich try using Quinine Sulfate.

It is not coral, or invert. safe, however if you can remove these from your DT then you can treat the tank. I would recommend two 5 day treatments at 1/4 tsp/10g and with a 25% water change between the treatments. Yes, leave the fish in place. Worms, algae will be killed.

QS will kill all the stages of Ich and leave your tank Ich free!

Give it a try.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by RegalAngel

I suggest that anyone that is having issues with Marine Ich try using Quinine Sulfate.

It is not coral, or invert. safe, however if you can remove these from your DT then you can treat the tank. I would recommend two 5 day treatments at 1/4 tsp/10g and with a 25% water change between the treatments. Yes, leave the fish in place. Worms, algae will be killed.

QS will kill all the stages of Ich and leave your tank Ich free!

Give it a try.

I've heard QS works well; but the DT still has to go fishless for 8+ weeks.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by briankmarsh1980

I could totally be wrong. I watched how they acted for over a year and noticed at first there would be spots all the time and after a few months my tank looked ich free. After about 6 months or so a fellow reefer was telling me that the ich will adjust to my lighting.... So I started testing the theory I would turn on my lights a few hours after they went off and sure enough fish had spots and I would do it again a couple hrs before the lights would be on and there would be spots. But during the day under normal lighting schedule no spots. Its was like that for another 6 months or so until I did a tank reset and started over. Maybe my parasites came from an ivy league school lol but it seamed to make sense. But yeah I guess its a theory I think to be true.

I'm not sure what you mean: are you saying the ich parasite leaves the fish when the lights are on, or that you just don't see spots when the lights are on? BTW: You cannot see the ich parasite with the naked eye and the white spots are not the actual adult parasite.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

Ya, unfortuantely, there are quite a few people here at RC who regularly post to others on how to approach parasite treatment and prevention who themselves are very inexperienced and/or misinformed about the topic. This is very troubling because it is one thing when you decide for yourself to defy accepted protocal and treatment, but it is quite another when you advise a very inexperienced hobbyist to do the same. I find it very morally offensive when someone takes it upon themselves to cause another hobbyists to risk the very lives of their fish based on misinformation when the hobbyist does not yet understand the risk he or she is taking. Not that post count alone is a reliable indicator, but I would recommend that no one follow the advice on this topic of anyone who has less than 1000 posts here at RC because there are so many people here at RC who regularlly post incorrect information on this topic. Those with a 1000 posts or more are much more likely to know what they are talking about with respect to this topic. Since the very lives of our fish depend on accurate information in terms of parasite prevention or treatment, I think that this approach is wise, although not full proof in terms of eliminating the vast amount of misinformation posted.

OK everybody! Listen Up! Stuart has spoken! If you have less than 1000 posts, your opinions and experiences are completely invalid.

That is possibly the most offensively arrogant post I've ever read on the internet, and I've been on the internet since before it was called the internet. Some people are just so full of themselves it is absolutely incredible. It is one thing to dispute and discuss something someone has posted, it is quite another to completely invalidate a group of people because they have not met some arbitrary post count set by you. Incredible.

[RBU1]

Steelhead relax.

I don't think Stuart was singling you out, just trying to keep people from spreading information that is not factual. In this hobby I feel expierience is the best thing to go with because ideas and things change fast. People that go around telling people to just use garlic and your parasites will go away is just plain wrong. The bottom line is Hypo and Copper are the only know treatments. Some have used Chloriquine with success. If you don't want to take the time to do the treatments and follow the "rules" as we know them then take the chance like I am and see what happens. My Achilles Hybrid has been covered, not to the extent of your purple, for the past three weeks. He is not breathing heavy He is not acting out of the norm and He is eating great. So I will wait it out. I have a scribbled angel in QT right now that will be going in the main tank this weekend. Time will tell what happens with him. Hopefully he never shows signs of crypt like the other fish in my tank. Its a chance and at this stage in my hobby career I am going to take the risk.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

OK everybody! Listen Up! Stuart has spoken! If you have less than 1000 posts, your opinions and experiences are completely invalid.

That is possibly the most offensively arrogant post I've ever read on the internet, and I've been on the internet since before it was called the internet. Some people are just so full of themselves it is absolutely incredible. It is one thing to dispute and discuss something someone has posted, it is quite another to completely invalidate a group of people because they have not met some arbitrary post count set by you. Incredible.

I don't hear his comments that way at all. There are plenty of folks banging their heads against the wall while reading all about garlic, herbal remedies, just a good diet, magic beans, UV, cleaner shrimp, et al,; are being suggested to hobbyists as a cure for ich At a time when the fish are literally dying. I'm breaking my own forum room by saying this; but sometimes you just KNOW you're right. It isn't just an opinion; but years of experience AND backed up by quotable scientific research. I sure as hell would never try to speak for Stuart; but the frustration is maddening. Some of us may just react to this frustration differently. IME, I can't judge a person's intentions (in most cases, that Sheen guy being an exception) unless I personally know him.

[Stuart60611]

As I stated above, perhaps post count is not the best indicator for whether someone is experienced in the hobby for the reasons stated above. Moreover, maybe join date here at RC may be a better indicator. However, what I was trying to state is that there are MANY people here who irresponsibly advise people on how to treat their fish with false and misleading information which is plainly untrue. To me, there is nothing more offensive than having someone who is new to the hobby risk the lives of their fish based on false information given to them from someone who does not know that they are talking about. It is just that simple. If you are not highly experienced on fish parasites and have unconventional views, it is probably best to keep your views to yourself and treat your fish any way you choose instead of causing someone else who knows no better to risk or kill their fish.

For example from this thread,

Originally Posted by RegalAngel

QS will kill all the stages of Ich and leave your tank Ich free!

Give it a try.

Quinine sulfate, nor any known chemical treatment for crypt (see link below), kills the parasite while in the cyst stage. Advising people that this is true when it is not is just not helpful.

http://www.fish-photography.info/bas...infections.htm

[bowfinger]

Hi. Now I have 990 more posts to go and I am a smart fish guy

[RBU1]

There are numerous opinions in this hobby. Some are expierience based and some are BS. I would think everyone knows the facts, its just if they choose to believe them or not. I know the facts, but I am choosing to let my tank go the way it is with crypt. Is that right or wrong???? Only I hold the answer to that. If I feel its OK then its my perogative. I feel failry confident in saying I have a great understanding of the aprasite and how it works. I also have a great understanding of what needs to be done to treat it. But still I have an issue. I know a person that has a huge system full of SEVERAL rather expensive fish. Guess what he has crypt. He cant tear down the tank and treat all his fish, so he and his fish are living with it. Sometimes things are better left alone. I will keep everyone aware of whats going on with my tank.

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by bowfinger

Hi. Now I have 990 more posts to go and I am a smart fish guy

NAH.....You only joined in 2009 hange around for a few more years....

[syrinx]

I wasnt online at any point when I did retail- hence my recent comming to RC- I will add this- even though I was involved in pioneering the reef hobby and have as much experience as far as time in is concerned- I sometimes give outdated advice. Someone like stuart with more reading and less actual and more anecdotal experiences cna give better advice. The only point where the smart less experienced people fail sometimes is believeing that all has been learned that there is- when we know only a certain amount of scientific fact- and are dealing with far to many variables to be absolute. As stated before- post count, time in, time online- doesn`t matter- the internet is a poll at best- if you want expert advice go to a expert.

[steelhead77]

In this hobby, as in medicine, there is hard scientific evidence based on research and studies and then there is anecdotal evidence. Everybody's tank is different and to discount anecdotal evidence is close minded, IMHO. What may or may not work for YOU in YOUR tank, may not work for everybody else. And visa-versa.

Post count and even years in the hobby do not an expert make. A person can be doing something wrong for ten years and and still have ten years experience. People need to read all they can - from many diverse sources, digest it and decide what's best for their tank.

[syrinx]

The reason reefer have always been ahead of the curve of science is anecdotal evidence. We don`t have to prove something happened and can be repeted with controls- we see it happen and its fact. Thats why the ich free tank % is so interesting- because although theoretically possible- the likelyhood of achieving it is much lower than one would expect by the science. And its the anecdotal things that happen to some guy that issues the challange to the hypothosis.

[bowfinger]

lol I did build my own wet-dry back in the early 90's, does that count? Also, I have bred ich in the late 80's with great success.

Originally Posted by RBU1

NAH.....You only joined in 2009 hange around for a few more years....

[THEDLO]

whoa. you guys have been busy. LOL

i have a few things to say;

This thread wasn't created to discuss the proper treatments of crypt but to find out who has treated and who has decided to live with it and what has been the experiences of either group.

most of you have touched on the interesting points like; misdiagnoses, improper QT practices etc. all of them good. i would like to add that when friends ask for advice i respond clearly saying "this is what I do" and leave it at that i don't make recommendations only suggestions and then i drive it home that they should read up more before acting. It has been my experience--and some of you have had similar ones too-- that one tank is not like the other, and that there are too many variables for the same formula to used across all reefs. I do David and You do You.

Also rest assure that the day i have an ich wipe out due to the fact that i didnt/don't QT ill resurrect this thread and share that experience :P

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by RBU1

I disagree with the 1000 post comment. There are people that have been around here for less than a year with over 1000. Go with amount of time in the hobby.

I think that post count is not a reliable way of judging experience. I know several folks with post count exceeding 20,000 posts with whom I do not feel comfortable with their advice based on questions they ask or positions they take.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

OK everybody! Listen Up! Stuart has spoken! If you have less than 1000 posts, your opinions and experiences are completely invalid.

That is possibly the most offensively arrogant post I've ever read on the internet, and I've been on the internet since before it was called the internet. Some people are just so full of themselves it is absolutely incredible. It is one thing to dispute and discuss something someone has posted, it is quite another to completely invalidate a group of people because they have not met some arbitrary post count set by you. Incredible.

Careful with ad hominem attacks. Even if your position may be correct, attacking another member is not acceptable. Using terms such as "arrogant" just are not in the best interests of any discussion.