Moving Iwaki to other side of wall

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by AcroporAddict

http://www.tbaquatics.com/index.php?...FQIT7Aod51oA6w


You'll find that most of these Asian made DC pumps are the same with different branding, like a Blueline pump is a rebranded Pan World, etc.

Actually, the "Blueline" pumps, were developed by a former chief engineer from Iwaki-Japan... The "Pan World" pumps, are Blueline knockoffs. If you know where to look, you can knockoff an Iwaki, DIY (skills and fab facilities needed ) because the motors are fairly easy to come by.

Incidentaly, the RLSS pumps, and the "Asian made DC pumps" use different motors. It is not a branding difference.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by chrismhaase

Uncle - do you recommend this design or are you saying that this is one of those customers are always right?

The compliance with "customer is always right" involved the unions below the external overflow. The unions were insisted upon for "maintenance reasons." (This tank will never be moved, or taken down.) If you follow the design, you will notice that the 3 unions on the drains are completely unnecessary, as the pipes are accessible from above. Can you spot why the union on the return is a waste of time? Sometimes it is a bit frustrating, and usually the "customer is always wrong."

I did not use the Spears gate valves however, I just did not model the KBI gate valves...This system has been up and running for ~ 4 years, and flows 3200 gph, with 4 vortecs in tank...I designed it, so of course I recommend it...

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by chrismhaase

I have this pending question to with plans to do a 150 or 180 display. I need it to be absolutely silent as it will be in the living room. Wife won't approve an already questionable 3rd tank startup, that is also the largest...

What is the quietest external pump??

Quietest pumps are the large pumps (reeflo) that use the low rpm (~1600 - 1700 rpm,) Baldor 4-pole motor (Frame: 42YZ.) Most aquarium pumps are running @ 3200 rpm, using a 2-pole motor. I call them wind up toys, because the noise is mostly from the fan, due to the high rpm. With AC motors, the speed is set by the frequency (60/50 Hz) and the number of poles.

The waveline DC pumps, to me anyway, are about the same; perhaps a "bit" more noise, that amounts to a quiet hum.

These AC motors: (no I don't use gates on the pump intake...it was the only 2" valve I had laying around at that time.)

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Actually, the "Blueline" pumps, were developed by a former chief engineer from Iwaki-Japan... The "Pan World" pumps, are Blueline knockoffs. If you know where to look, you can knockoff an Iwaki, DIY (skills and fab facilities needed ) because the motors are fairly easy to come by.

Incidentaly, the RLSS pumps, and the "Asian made DC pumps" use different motors. It is not a branding difference.

Actually, it is the other way around. Pan World Group was established in 1986, and is an international pump manufacturer and distributor, involved in pump manufacture and sales for many applications outside the aquarium industry. BluLine Products is a small aquarium products company. Some Coralife external pumps are rebranded PanWorld pumps as well.

http://www.panworldamericas.com/aboutus.html

And many of the Asian manufactured DC pumps sold in the aquarium industry are the same pumps with different brands. Perhaps not the RLSS pumps, but several brands are.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by AcroporAddict

I believe it is the other way around. Pan World Group was established in 1986, and is an international pump manufacturer and distributor, involved in pump manufacture and sales for many applications outside the aquarium industry. BluLine Products is a small aquarium products company. Some Coralife external pumps are rebranded PanWorld pumps as well.

http://www.panworldamericas.com/aboutus.html

And many of the Asian manufactured DC pumps sold in the aquarium industry are the same pumps with different brands. Perhaps not the RLSS pumps, but several brands are.

http://bluelineaquatics.com/products/water_pump/hd.html

To be honest, however, the iwaki, blueline, panworld, little giant, eheim, mag-drive, and numerous other pumps, are deprecated, and superceded by far better pumps. So it is hardly worth debating who kocked off whom or when...

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

http://bluelineaquatics.com/products/water_pump/hd.html

To be honest, however, the iwaki, blueline, panworld, little giant, eheim, mag-drive, and numerous other pumps, are deprecated, and superceded by far better pumps. So it is hardly worth debating who kocked off whom or when...

Then you should not have started the debate by erroneously correcting me in your previous posts, particularly if you feel it is not worth discussing in the first place.

[uncleof6]

***

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by uncleof6;

The "Pan World" pumps, are Blueline knockoffs.

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Just for brevity, the correction was not erroneous... That "Pan World" (an international conglomerate) was founded in 1986, is outside of the context of the topic. That the blueline pumps were designed by "a former engineer" of Iwaki, is directly in context. Where the design of the Pan World pumps (in the context of "this class of pumps") came from would also be contextually relevant. What is also relevant is that they both use the same motors, from most likely the same supplier, that also supplies iwaki. However, the "pump" is in the volute and impeller design, often the impeller shaft, which may or may not be apparent, not the motor....and none of the above build motors... Here is the real curve ball, however, Iwaki uses two different motors: Japanese motors, and US motors...the Japanese motors being noted for being better...

Pan World started in 1986. BlueLine started in 2004. BlueLine pumps are rebranded Pan World pumps. Pan World pumps are not "BlueLine knockoffs". They are the same pumps, manufactured by Pan World as a private label for BlueLine with a different model number. Period.

All of your above statements about who designed what have no relation to your incorrect statement that Pan world Pumps are "BlueLine knockoffs". I said nothing about who designed what. For that matter, Iwaki is an international company that makes pumps for chemical and manufacturing applications, just like Pan World, with their aquarium pump division small potatoes in their overall business, just like Pan World. I also never mentioned volute design either.

You erroneously corrected my accurate statement that BlueLine pumps are rebranded Pan World pumps by calling them "BlueLine knockoffs, which they are not. That is all I addressed.

And I believe BlueLine products are just an in-house brand belonging to Champion Lighting. They are a Distributor, not a manufacturer.

If you do not want to debate this, then check your facts before you try to correct something that does not need correcting.

[jharding08]

Back to the original issue at hand

If I do find an external pump that is quiet enough to be installed in my stand, what is the best way to orient the pump.

I have 11" from the sump to the wall of the stand. If I could move the sump over a little bit, I would get better angles for my drain lines in to the drain area of the sump, but would have less room on the bulkhead/return side.



My 1" bulkhead is currently on the near side of the sump, where i have a 90 leading to the back of the stand where I originally had my Iwaki installed




Assuming a quieter pump is smaller than an Iwaki (>10" length), I would have the following options:

1. Drill the current 1" bulkhead to a 1.5" bulkhead. Run 1.5" pipe straight into pump inlet, will probably need a 90 on outlet to get to back of stand for return. Will need to plug the bulkhead for any maintenance as ball valve wouldnt fit

2. Drill the current 1" bulkhead to a 1.5" bulkhead, run 1.5" pipe with ball valve and 90 to back corner of stand for pump. Can use 45 to get return to back of stand/tank. Will also be able to move sump over to the right a bit to make overflow drains straighter. This would make the pipe from the sump bulkhead to the 90 shorter.

3. Plug current 1" bulkhead and drill new 1.5" bulkhead in back part of sump. Run 1.5" pipe directly into pump inlet. Will be able to use 45 to get to back of stand/tank for return.

Thanks for your help with this

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by jharding08

Assuming a quieter pump is smaller than an Iwaki (>10" length), I would have the following options:

1. Drill the current 1" bulkhead to a 1.5" bulkhead. Run 1.5" pipe straight into pump inlet, will probably need a 90 on outlet to get to back of stand for return. Will need to plug the bulkhead for any maintenance as ball valve wouldnt fit

2. Drill the current 1" bulkhead to a 1.5" bulkhead, run 1.5" pipe with ball valve and 90 to back corner of stand for pump. Can use 45 to get return to back of stand/tank. Will also be able to move sump over to the right a bit to make overflow drains straighter. This would make the pipe from the sump bulkhead to the 90 shorter.

3. Plug current 1" bulkhead and drill new 1.5" bulkhead in back part of sump. Run 1.5" pipe directly into pump inlet. Will be able to use 45 to get to back of stand/tank for return.

Thanks for your help with this

I would do option 1. A 1.5" bulkhead will give you the potential for so much flow, you probably won't use the upper speed ranges of a DC pump. I probably have 2-3x an hour flow through my sump in my 465 gallon. Too high a flow rate through your sump can return microbubbles from reactor or skimmer effluent before they can work themselves out of the water. You only have a 120 gallon as it is.

For maintenance, drain down the 120 a bit (return pump off of course) under the overflow to stop water from coming through the pipes into the sump, then stick a small pump with hose attached to its output in the return section to drain the sump out to below the bulkhead inlet and you don't have to worry about a ball valve for maintenance. Or you can just combine any maintenance with a water change and use a python to drain the hose down and replace any removed water with fresh.

[lakeviewink]

In most cases the noise comes from the vibration of the wood either of the stand or mounting block. If there is a space between the cabinet bottom and the floor try putting a towel between the stand and floor and it should muffle the vibration noise.

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by lakeviewink

In most cases the noise comes from the vibration of the wood either of the stand or mounting block. If there is a space between the cabinet bottom and the floor try putting a towel between the stand and floor and it should muffle the vibration noise.

I have been using sound dampening pads from BRS - http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sound-dampening-pad.html

With the Iwaki, it was definitely the motor making the noise, not vibration, not the fan

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by AcroporAddict

I would do option 1. A 1.5" bulkhead will give you the potential for so much flow, you probably won't use the upper speed ranges of a DC pump. I probably have 2-3x an hour flow through my sump in my 465 gallon. Too high a flow rate through your sump can return microbubbles from reactor or skimmer effluent before they can work themselves out of the water. You only have a 120 gallon as it is.

I am going to drill a 1.5" bulkhead no matter what. My question is where to place the pump, which will change the plumbing for the inlet and outlet. Existing bulkhead location, straight into the inlet and then needing a 90 to get the outlet to the back of the tank, or Existing bulkhead location, run to back corner of stand with PVC including a 90 and then a 45 to get to the back of the tank, or new bulkhead in back corner of sump, straight to the pump inlet with 45 to get to the back of tank for return.

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I am going to drill a 1.5" bulkhead no matter what. My question is where to place the pump, which will change the plumbing for the inlet and outlet. Existing bulkhead location, straight into the inlet and then needing a 90 to get the outlet to the back of the tank, or Existing bulkhead location, run to back corner of stand with PVC including a 90 and then a 45 to get to the back of the tank, or new bulkhead in back corner of sump, straight to the pump inlet with 45 to get to the back of tank for return.

With your size tank and the size of the bulkhead, I don't really think it matters either way, but I would probably position the pump as far towards the front to the stand Is I could, just for ease of access, so I would do: Existing bulkhead location, straight into the inlet and then needing a 90 to get the outlet to the back of the tank.

Any difference in flow rate between your two options would be so piddly you'd probably never even notice it.

But, in your installation, if your DC pump does not have union type attachments for the in and out, then you should incorporate a union on the intake side and a union/ball valve on the output side for easy removal, with the ball valve preventing water from trickling down into the sump from the returns if you need to remove the pump for wahtever reason. Some DC pumps come with barb type attachments, some come with union type attachments, and some with female or male pipe thread inlet/outlet. Some may have multiple fittings included so you can do what you want.

If you choose to plumb the pump towards the back of the stand, you might also be able to incorporate a union/ball valve on the intake side as well, so you would be able to close the ball valves on each side and remove the pump with no water coming out of the sump or back draining from the return lines.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I am going to drill a 1.5" bulkhead no matter what. My question is where to place the pump, which will change the plumbing for the inlet and outlet. Existing bulkhead location, straight into the inlet and then needing a 90 to get the outlet to the back of the tank, or Existing bulkhead location, run to back corner of stand with PVC including a 90 and then a 45 to get to the back of the tank, or new bulkhead in back corner of sump, straight to the pump inlet with 45 to get to the back of tank for return.

Just a note: I pulled my last post, prior to the reply, and there was a reason for that. Unfortunately, personal attacks are a poor tactic, under any circumstances, so it is hardly worth the time to pursue, or otherwise comment on that topic.

On with your issue.

If the noise was not a 60Hz hum, and it was not the fan, (unsafe to assume) however it is probably one of three things: The pump was cavitating, the motor is damaged due to cavitation, or the motor is getting ready to quit. (dry bearings what have you.) It has been a very long time since I have run these small pumps, but I do have a 30 year old little giant that is silent save for the fan and 60Hz hum.



The reeflos and wavelines are the quietest pumps I have yet come across.

The Wavline pumps, come in two sizes (ignoring flow rates): ~ 7" x 4" x 5.7" (DC 10000, DC 12000) and 6" x 3.6" x 5" (DC 4000 and DC 6000.) The inlet size on the smaller pumps is 1.25", and 1.5" on the larger pumps. Outlets are 1" and 1.25" respectively. So they are smaller, in some ways. No way the reeflo pumps are going to fit in the stand, and a 1.5" bulkhead is what you want to use, unless going with larger inlet sizes (1.5",) and moving the pump out. See below.

Note: the waveline pumps are submersible by default. You need to obtain a volute gasket to run the pump external. Unfortunately, you decided to make the return section too small for the pump you are already using, so there is no room for a submersible pump, even though that would be the cleanest simplest solution to your issue.

Assuming the pump will be external, if you cannot have a straight run to the volute > 10" from the last elbow in the intake plumbing, don't put the pump in the stand, rather go to plan A which was to move the pump, with the necessary plumbing modifications. With the intake plumbing either 1.5" or 2" depending on the particular pump you select.

At any rate, don't do anything to the sump, until you have finalized everything else.

[jharding08]

What if I run the pump straight into the bulkhead? I ordered the DC 6000. If its 6", then i have room. Question would be use the current bulkhead location and bend the output plumbing more, or drill a new bulkhead in the back where less bending of the output plumbing is needed to get back up to the tank from the back

[uncleof6]

That would depend on what is going on with the sump side of the bulkhead. I know you are using a screen, however, they present a restriction on the intake, thus making the pump work harder. (friction loss, etc.) Pretty much if you use an elbow inside the sump (better idea,) you will need to move the pump further away from the sump, if you nose it in. You kinda have a catch 22 going on here.

The DC-6000 is 151mm long.. ~ 6". You need at least a 10" straight run to the pump. More would be better. I think it would be wise, to "take a break" till you get the pump in hand, a ball valve for the intake, and a gate for the outlet, and see what you actually have to work with. I don't want to see you make irreversible mods to the sump, till it is "safe to do so" as it were. I would start by slamming the pump as far back toward the wall as possible, (I have seen them outside the stand as well to get the distance.) If you have the distance (from current bulkhead location) get a length of sch80 pipe and a heat gun, and mold a transition to get out and up from the stand, rather than deal with the use of a 90° close to the pump outlet. (flow killer.) If you can 45° out and up, that is fine.

[AcroporAddict]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

Just a note: I pulled my last post, prior to the reply, and there was a reason for that. Unfortunately, personal attacks are a poor tactic, under any circumstances, so it is hardly worth the time to pursue, or otherwise comment on that topic.

Not sure what you term a personal attack, but I see none by anyone. You attempted to correct what you deemed as inaccurate information I posted, but you were incorrect, not me. My post was accurate. I don't care if you admit it or not, but it is what it is.

[jharding08]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

That would depend on what is going on with the sump side of the bulkhead. I know you are using a screen, however, they present a restriction on the intake, thus making the pump work harder. (friction loss, etc.) Pretty much if you use an elbow inside the sump (better idea,) you will need to move the pump further away from the sump, if you nose it in. You kinda have a catch 22 going on here.

The DC-6000 is 151mm long.. ~ 6". You need at least a 10" straight run to the pump. More would be better. I think it would be wise, to "take a break" till you get the pump in hand, a ball valve for the intake, and a gate for the outlet, and see what you actually have to work with. I don't want to see you make irreversible mods to the sump, till it is "safe to do so" as it were. I would start by slamming the pump as far back toward the wall as possible, (I have seen them outside the stand as well to get the distance.) If you have the distance (from current bulkhead location) get a length of sch80 pipe and a heat gun, and mold a transition to get out and up from the stand, rather than deal with the use of a 90° close to the pump outlet. (flow killer.) If you can 45° out and up, that is fine.

With the sump all the way to the left of the stand, there is 11.5" from the right side of the sump to the right side of the stand. The stand is 21" deep. The sump sits 1" from the front of the stand. and the bulkhead is 5" from the front of the sump. I bought 1.5" bulkheads with threaded flanges so I can put a threaded street elbow downturned in or if i need, a threaded cap if no room for a ball valve

The pump comes today. From my initial math, before actually putting the pump in, it would be 6" of pump, straight into the bulkhead, leaving 5" for pipe and/or ball valve. Or if I orientated it with a 90, it would be 21" of the stand - 6" (5" of bulkhead to front of sump, 1" sump to front of stand), so I have 15" from middle of bulkhead to back of stand (measurement confirmed) or 22"from middle of bulkhead to back wall. 6" of pump would leave me at 9" or 16" to wall.

Any of these measurements look promising?

Are we saying this setup below isnt valid because of the downturned 90 and not enough pipe after?

[jharding08]

I also have all the 1.5" ball valves, unions, gate valves and pipe that are necessary to get this done

[dcmartinpc]

I wouldn't put a gate valve on the inlet. Ball valve only on the inlet for shut off. You can put a gate valve on the outlet for fine control if you wish.

If you are right on space, true union ball valve should do the trick.

Don

[jharding08]

It would be BV or TUBV on the inlet and union/GV on the outlet. Although I was thinking of having BV or TUBV on the outlet by the pump and the gate valve above the manifold T, so I can dial back pressure if necessary.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

With the sump all the way to the left of the stand, there is 11.5" from the right side of the sump to the right side of the stand. The stand is 21" deep. The sump sits 1" from the front of the stand. and the bulkhead is 5" from the front of the sump. I bought 1.5" bulkheads with threaded flanges so I can put a threaded street elbow downturned in or if i need, a threaded cap if no room for a ball valve

The pump comes today. From my initial math, before actually putting the pump in, it would be 6" of pump, straight into the bulkhead, leaving 5" for pipe and/or ball valve. Or if I orientated it with a 90, it would be 21" of the stand - 6" (5" of bulkhead to front of sump, 1" sump to front of stand), so I have 15" from middle of bulkhead to back of stand (measurement confirmed) or 22"from middle of bulkhead to back wall. 6" of pump would leave me at 9" or 16" to wall.

Any of these measurements look promising?

Are we saying this setup below isnt valid because of the downturned 90 and not enough pipe after?

The elbow is a bit too close to the elbow yes. It is 11" from the direction change to the inlet volute. With a ball valve and pipe between the sump and the pump, the distance ended up just a little over 15". I don't use gate valves on pump inlets, this was the only 2" valve I had on hand when I snapped this shot. I don't remember what the topic was when I took this picture...

Nosing your pump in will be too close. You may have a "good enough" run to the back of the tank...

[jharding08]

I have the DC-6000 and it DOES fit in the return section, submersed.

If I do it that way, do I put a downturn on the inlet still, so it pulls more water on startup? The inlet volute is 1.25" and the outlet is 1" I have a 1" to 1.5" adapter to get to 1.5" return piping.

OK to use hard plumbed PVC from the outlet of the pump all the way to the return?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jharding08

I have the DC-6000 and it DOES fit in the return section, submersed.

If I do it that way, do I put a downturn on the inlet still, so it pulls more water on startup? The inlet volute is 1.25" and the outlet is 1" I have a 1" to 1.5" adapter to get to 1.5" return piping.

OK to use hard plumbed PVC from the outlet of the pump all the way to the return?

Well, shucks, now I have to do the return section speech.

Return section criteria (both submersible and external pumps,) involves the safeguarding of equipment in the system. The return section needs to be large enough to not only accomodate a submersible pump, or elbow for an external pump, but also contain enough water volume so the pump can run several days, without running dry due to evaporation when your ATO fails, and you are not home. Average daily evaporation is ~ 2gallons per day. This can vary depending on ambient conditions. So when I spoke of the return section being too small, that is what I was referring to.

Dropping a submersible in the return section will decrease the volume in the return section, making the safety margin even smaller. Using an elbow on the intake plumbing of an external pump, increases the "run time" a bit, at the expense of head pressure on the intake as water level decreases, but will give you a bit more time to discover the problem, before the volute burns up. Putting an elbow on the intake of the waveline, would do the same thing, however, you would be back to square one on the 10x rule. Submersibles are not subject to the 10x rule because generally, there is no plumbing ahead of the inlet, so the intake is always flooded.

I know what I would do, but then I have facilities that others don't. I do think that, ignoring the volume issue, submersible is a solution for you. But you are going to have to put some thought into safeguarding the pump (either external or submersible) with either a mechanical w/electrical backup, or electrical w/mechanical backup, ATO with a low water cutoff for the pump. Ultimately though, without the passive failsafe of volume, there is some risk. I have a box of pumps in storage that present the results of running dry (no pictures of them,) so it is something that needs consideration.

An elbow on the pump inlet will not make the pump pull more water at startup. Nothing will. We don't want the pump pulling water anyway, we want it to push water, the whole concept behind head height above the volute inlet, and keeping the intake side unrestricted.

Hard pipe from inlet to outlet on the return side is fine, however RLSS sells a silicone rubber connector that provides some isolation, for use with skimmers.