Why scare newcomers into using dry rock?

[ap123]

I honestly believe there's more than one way to build a successful reef tank.

I'm not so afraid of pests, but. Large or small, most of us have a budget, and decisions have to be made on where and when to splurge. In the past I've had systems I purchased used, so I splurged on excellent LR and upgraded equipment a little at a time.

If my budget was unlimited, I'd love to begin with the same rock I used when setting up my first tank--very fresh Vanuatu (sp?).

Now I'm setting up a larger system, beginning from scratch, I'm going to invest more in the lights from the start and use mostly dry rock. I've seen successful tanks built from dry rock, and I'm hoping I'll be able to do the same. This is new to me, and I'm sure there will be a learning curve, but ime there always is.

[Green Chromis]

Hi dthorn, I'm glad your live sand in a bag worked, I use fresh sand collected from the ocean, which includes all those bad worms and other living organism that thrive in the sand on our local reef areas where all our hard and soft corals live. Keep up the good fight and maybe we can help a new reefer or two to setup a new tank the way we use to in the old days, the 90's and early 2000's before all this save the reef, don't buy live rock nonsense started. The locals where most of the rock is collected use more live rock for building homes and roads than we will ever use in the aquarium trade. One more thing, everyone should dive on a reef a few months after a Typhoon or Hurricane moves through an area, you would be surprised at all the new live rock that is torn from the bottom of the ocean and becomes a new reef area.

[dkeller_nc]

While I would not advise a true newbie to setup a tank in the way that you describe (no time allowed for cycling), you are very much following in the path of reef tank history. It was very common, perhaps even universal, to set a tank up in the early 1990's with live rock that was cured in a separate container, and stock it with fish and corals the same day. In fact, this is how it's done at big aquarium conventions by well-heeled vendors that setup a huge display tank in a few hours.

And you are spot-on that much of the $5 - $8 per pound "live rock" at the LFS doesn't really resemble true live rock obtained from a reputable vendor like Premium Aquatics or Tampa Bay Saltwater. And if I can convince them, I always advise a true newbie to go this route - I distinctly remember spending hours looking at all of the fascinating micro-life on the live rock that I set my first reef tank up with in 1990.

That said, I do question the idea that all of the micro-life is necessary to run a successful reef tank; I've seen quite a number of tanks based only on dry rock that were spectacular. But these were tanks that were setup by skilled aquarists; IMO, setting up one's first reef tank with only dry rock is not the way to go.

[firemountain]

Live rock brings in the good and the bad. Mine had some Aptasia that exposed on it. It didn't show up until 2 months later. I have successfully treated to date with Aptasia-X.

Then one day a bristle worm popped up...cool! Now I look for him when I get the chance. Good learning experience. I believe someone who doesn't get live rock is missing out.

[Pomacanthus1]

Without the incredible diversity of colors and critters that come with using lots of live rock, it seems like it'd be hard to call an aquarium a proper 'reef' aquarium. Instead it's just a tank for fish and corals and whatever invertebrates you choose to ad to it. Yes live rock comes with the good and the bad, but in my experience the good far outweighs having to deal with a few aptasias and gorilla crabs. That said, it is possible to get some pretty wild stuff hitchhiking in on the rock.

I know that when I set up my next tank, I'll be using a ton of live rock. I do worry about how the quality compares to what was available 10 years ago, though. So far I have not been all that impressed with what I've seen in the area LFS, so hopefully Premium Aquatics and Live Aquaria are still known for their good rock these days.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by firemountain

Then one day a bristle worm popped up...cool! Now I look for him when I get the chance. Good learning experience. I believe someone who doesn't get live rock is missing out.

Bristleworms are all good until they kill your $100 Helfrichi firefish. I'd use caution with cave dwelling fish if you have a lot of bristleworms.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Pomacanthus1

I know that when I set up my next tank, I'll be using a ton of live rock. I do worry about how the quality compares to what was available 10 years ago, though. So far I have not been all that impressed with what I've seen in the area LFS, so hopefully Premium Aquatics and Live Aquaria are still known for their good rock these days.

Aside from TBS (and maybe 1 or 2 other shops), you are going to be disappointed. I recently got some "super premium" (or whatever they call it) rock from DFS and it far inferior to my LFS live rock. I'm in week two of curing it and it still reeks (even with scrubbing it every three days). I had a peak of 8 ppm ammonia from all the dead matter. Very little coraline, not much life (that is living).

Most all LR nowadays is shipped on boats to the US. Some, like TBS, is genuine (and shipped in water!) good stuff, but you pay for that. The stuff under $8-10/lb is pretty crappy -- at least from what I have seen / bought that is true.

[dkeller_nc]

You can get the real deal, but the sources are dwindling. The afore-mentioned Premium Aquatics and Tampa Bay Saltwater are sources, and another one is LiveStockUSA. The catch is that if you want flown-in Indo-Pacific Manado live rock that's extremely fresh, you're going to have to wait on it; shipments come infrequently, and on an irregular schedule.

[Paul B]

That and I like to talk a lot and share my crazy theories. All driven, by logic, strong analytical skills, and a strong drive to do what works for me instead of doing what everyone says is right.

All my theories are "crazy" but my theories used to be the only theories until Al Gore invented the internet, now everyone has a theory.

It was very common, perhaps even universal, to set a tank up in the early 1990's with live rock that was cured in a separate container, and stock it with fish and corals the same day.

We also did that in the 1970s but we had no live rock or live coral, We didn't even have dead rock. We could have used cinder blocks I would imagine but we used dead coral as that was all that was available. We cycled with a shrimp, worm, hamburger, flounder or whatever we had for dinner. To me a live fish is not that much different from a dead shrimp as that shrimp used to be alive, swimming in the sea until someone killed it to put in a tank and let it rot. I, and the shrimp feel that that shrimp had the same rights as the fish but I am not sure as I can't read their constitution as I don't read "fish".
I started my tank with live rock that I collected by SCUBA diving all over the Caribbean and the South Pacific. I bleached it in the hotel room as there was no use for live rock at the time and all that growth was considered bad as we just wanted a nice looking "white" dead rock. I carried it all home on my lap in the plane as it was legal at the time and the Super Model stewardesses just looked at me kind of weird. I think the best way to start a tank is with live rock but if I had to do it all over again I would use mostly dead rock with some live rock. Then I would drive to a salt water cove and collect all sorts of muddy, algae and amphipod covered rocks to throw in there. But I don't live in Utah where it would be a longer ride. In the decades I have had my reef I have had what are considered pests like flatworms, crabs, hair algae Godzilla larva et. But no time have I ever had to intervene and kill any of those things (except the crabs) I also never dipped a coral in anything to kill pests. Flatworms, invasive algae, invasive snails, Atilla the Hun all left on their own. I considered them interesting and they never bothered anything. The tank straightened out itself and is still running just the way I like it. The little Godzilla's are growing a little large and their tails are scratching my ceiling but that's about it.

[AirForceAquariu]

As always I love Paul B's stpries and thoughts on things. Experience is the best teacher, and boy does he have it.

As for my own newbie experience, I started my 60g tank with 28lbs of gorgeous purple encrusted rock from the LFS, started the cycle, then added 30lbs from Tampa Bay Saltwater (thanks richard!) which has been thrilling to watch. Sure I am huntin 2 what I think are red mithrax crabs, and there is some ominous clicking that I believe is a pistol shrimp, but the good far outweighs the bad. I have sponges galore, I have some hidden cup corals popping up, a few mystery anems (no I don't think they areaiptasia, yes I will eventually post a pic to confirm), spaghetti worms, a few snails, baby brittles, bristle worms, and things I have yet to identify. It is hours of entertainment.

I did the split to cut down on cost. The pests would only really be a hassle if I hadn't done any research first and was scrambling to look things up. I feel like I have a small piece of the ocean in my tank rather then some of the manicured (albeit gorgeous) tanks that other reefers enjoy. It's 6 this way anf half dozen the other clearly, but those are my 2cents and my experiences.

[jimrawr]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

I'm just re-entering the reef hobby after an 8+ year haitus and I'm really surprised by how much there has been a shift from using pure live rock/sand to dry materials, especially the rock. A mere 8 years ago I feel like if you talked about using dry rock in your tank people would laugh, but now it is common place.

I understand that people like control and get scared about "pests", but I am I alone in feeling like you miss out on a HUGE part of what makes reefing awesome when you use almost all (or all) dry rock? I feel like people who never used live rock and went straight to dry rock, in the false belief that it would eventually end up "live", are really getting hoodwinked. I understand a veteran reefer maybe just wanting a tank they 100% control, but man real live rock is just so awesome. The best part about reefing, IMO, has always been seeing what comes alive on your rock/sand as the tank matures. It's not the bacteria or the "scary" aiptasia or mantis shrimp, it's all of the other stuff that you are GUARANTEED to get, which you can't artificially recreate: sponges, feather dusters, random corals, non-decorative clams, crabs, snails, starfish, pods, worms, macro algaes and countless other random and safe creatures that turn up over time. This is not even to mention how much EASIER it is to keep a healthy tank when you start with proper live rock. The tank cycles fast and almost takes care of itself (with proper cleanup crew added).

It's just so much fun to watch a tank with real live rock mature over time. So, why does it seem like newcomers are "scared" more toward dry rock these days? There's NOTHING like starting a tank with 90-100% live rock, not this "mostly dry rock and I'll add a few pieces to seed it" stuff.

Am I alone here?

On my third tank I used ceramic rock that was never in a tank before. Could not be happier. No pests, no algae spores, etc. IMO would not start another tank with live rock. Its costly and provides no benefit other than making the cycle quicker. Everything you want in your tank can be added when/how you want to later on when using dry rock. Want pods? Add some chaeto to the sump. Or even just put some chaeto in display and shake it around, you now have pods.

My last two tanks were started with 100% live rock. Ended up with bubble algae, aptasia, bryopsis and other unwanted. The largest being that I ended up with PO4 soaked rock that you have NO WAY TO KNOW prior to buying the rock. That was MONTHS to battle and not worth it. Paid a premium to have rock that was nothing but problematic.

Dry rock FTW. Of course everyone has their opinions - this is mine.

[firemountain]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Bristleworms are all good until they kill your $100 Helfrichi firefish. I'd use caution with cave dwelling fish if you have a lot of bristleworms.

I only have 1 bristle worm that is a baby......came in as a hitchhiker. Not a huge fan of them anyway...but a little diversity is good.

[Green Chromis]

Hi Jim, it sounds like you used low quality live rock. You need to get the rock fresh from the ocean, ex. Tampa Bay rock. I've seen some nice looking tanks with dry rock and after a while they become purple and hopefully covered with coral. The trouble with this rock is their is no life on it and no matter how much stuff you add later it will never equal the rock you get fresh from the ocean. Fresh live rock is very expensive and not everyone can afford it, but I would never setup a tank without it, know matter how large the tank is. Paul has the right idea about adding life fresh from the sea as I use live sand from the ocean reefs and mud and other substrate from Florida bay. Using rock, sand and other substrates fresh from the ocean can never be duplicated using dry rock, sand or what ever else you decide to add to your tank. The bacteria in and on the live rock is only a very small part of the reason for using high quality live rock.

[Pomacanthus1]

Originally Posted by shermanator

Aside from TBS (and maybe 1 or 2 other shops), you are going to be disappointed. I recently got some "super premium" (or whatever they call it) rock from DFS and it far inferior to my LFS live rock. I'm in week two of curing it and it still reeks (even with scrubbing it every three days). I had a peak of 8 ppm ammonia from all the dead matter. Very little coraline, not much life (that is living).

Most all LR nowadays is shipped on boats to the US. Some, like TBS, is genuine (and shipped in water!) good stuff, but you pay for that. The stuff under $8-10/lb is pretty crappy -- at least from what I have seen / bought that is true.

That's disappointing to hear, I can't imagine much of the more interesting macro-life that can come on LR would be able to survive a multi-week dry trip across the ocean. It seems like Marshal Island rock has also completely disappeared. If standard live rock these days is the rather sterile, chunky rocks with 30% coralline coverage that I have seen so far, then I guess I'll just have to make sure I get the real deal air-freight rock when the time comes.





Definitely looks more like what I remember. The pictures I've seen of TBS and Caribbean rock aren't very impressive, but maybe I just haven't seen good ones.

[tmz]

Live rock can be fun if it's live and fresh from a pristine areas of the seas when you get it . NSW or natural substrate can also be beneficial if you have access. I like the maricultured florida stuff shipped wet for the variety of life it offers. Unfortunately, muc of the life on that macroalges, corals ,sponges, boring calms etc perishes even with overnight damp shipping. I think a bit of seeding is all you need to get the viable organisms including pods, spongers ,microbiota mcrofuana,even viable corals , etc while a little qaurantine period for fresh live rock can help prevent introducing some of the more the more onerous pests. into the aquarium.

If the rock or live sand has viable nitrifying bacteria,it's already cycled and will in enough volume support an aquarium,. Trouble is there is no way to know that and much of what is sold as live rock includes a lot of death and decay as well as some viable pests.

One caution on dry rock worth iteration is the fact that much of it has loosely bound phosphate which will leach as well dried in organic material; it can promote nuisance algae . Curing it is important to minimize leaching in the aquarium.

[Paul B]

Live rock can be fun if it's live and fresh from a pristine areas of the seas when you get it .

Is this live and fun enough? This is from "tropical" New York in the Sound in my favorite tide pool. Manta rays are not there this time of the year as the many Supermodels posing for pictures on boats scare them away and the water is 6" deep. They also hate the way the bay ices up in the winter.

This video was taken with an underwater camera so turn the volum up. I collect some "rock" here (which is asphalt and maybe some parts that fell off a 1955 Oldsmobile) but covered in bacteria and amphipods.



If I find any "pests" here, I just shoo them away.

[jimrawr]

Paul B I love your posts.. Something about the way you write cracks me up. You need a TV show man!

[Paul B]

I'm lucky I have a TV set much less a show.

[gmlee]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

What makes you say that?

The u shouldn't be in the hobby in the first place