Sulfur DeNitrators

[jnb]

that's enough air and I don't know exactly how to say this - I'll just get to the point - If you research your sump setup and have everyone vote - I believe the conclusion may be that you are running a nitrate factory.

Maybe I am wrong, but at this point in reefkeeping I believe everyone has gotten away from filter pads and bioballs.

Originally posted by skydancer
hello gents,
With regards to aeration...
I have a pretty standard sump where the drain box has two filter pads and below it about 4 gal of bioballs. The tank return runs thru the pads and thru the bioballs.
I let the de-nitrifier output drip on top of the pads and the nitrate-free water runs thru the bioballs and down to the sump. From there it goes thru a sponge and into a compartment that either gets pumped to the skimmer or returns to the show tank.
Is that enough aeration, or should I feed the effluent line into the cylindrical "column" of the skimmer thru the air inlet opening?

With regards to your comments about the hair line algae... I'm very encouraged... Maybe finally I will get rid off that ugly green scene. Interestingly but not surprisingly though the heaviest concentration of hair algae is on the top of the tank closest to the lights. I have a 36 inch tall tank and very little algae is on the bottom of the tank comparatively speaking.

[skydancer]

Jnb, your point is well taken. In all my research about the sump set up I also came to the conclusion that I'm running a nitrate factory.
I also have a very heavy fish load in my 250G tank.
Powder blue tang - large
Yellow tang - XL
Regal tang-XL
Kole tang-L
Coperband butterfly - L
Magnificent foxface - L
Dwaf lion fish -M
4 gobies (3M, 1L)
1 dragonet,
2 damsels
3 large clown fish

Did I forget someone? So the reason for the bioballs is so that I can quickly convert the waste to nitrates. Then I'm hoping the de-nitrifier will take the nitrates out.

Is there any merit to my reasoning? Feel free to shoot holes..

[jnb]

that is a nice load - you meant nitrites down further - and IMO I think you are better eliminating the pads and the bio balls as long as you have enough rock to convert ammonia to nitirites - if you decide to do so - remove some balls every couple of days till they are gone - and at least cleans the pads and letting the sulfur hardware effluent to the pads/bio balls - is sort of not right - just let the effluent drain somewhere near the skimmer intake

based on all my study - this is what I recommend

Originally posted by skydancer
Jnb, your point is well taken. In all my research about the sump set up I also came to the conclusion that I'm running a nitrate factory.
I also have a very heavy fish load in my 250G tank.
Powder blue tang - large
Yellow tang - XL
Regal tang-XL
Kole tang-L
Coperband butterfly - L
Magnificent foxface - L
Dwaf lion fish -M
4 gobies (3M, 1L)
1 dragonet,
2 damsels
3 large clown fish

Did I forget someone? So the reason for the bioballs is so that I can quickly convert the waste to nitrates. Then I'm hoping the de-nitrifier will take the nitrates out.

Is there any merit to my reasoning? Feel free to shoot holes..

[skydancer]

I have 600 lbs of live rock in the tank.

I thought the live rock converts the ammonia to nitrites, and...
the bioballs (via aeration - drain tank water running thru them) will convert nitrites to nitrates and...
the Sulfur De-nitrifier will convert Nitrates to Nitrogen gas and out of the water column...

Do I have it all wrong?

[skydancer]

Also, I understand the reasoning being against bioballs. Bioballs get dirty and become their own nitrate factory.

But, why are you against a regularly cleaned filter pad? How else can I "trap" debris that comes down from the tank?
Don't some people use a sock in their sump?

[grochmal]

The live rock will also convert nitrite to nitrate and (to some degree) nitrate to nitrogen.
Live rock is probably the best "filtration" system you can use.

[jnb]

cool, lots of rock - and you are right - the bioballs and pads do harbour debris but you are cleaning your pads so I back up a notch - when I had pads and they caught little pods, etc - i felt bad so I took out all pads and letter the skimmer pull what it can, with real good water movement my sump floor catches debris not pulled by the skimmer and I vacumn the sump floor when doing water changes

i am only against pads if they are not cleaned and also I won't use them because alot of what they are catching I would lke to go back to the tank - pods, and other stuff I can not see that is beneficial as food.

Yes some people do amd many of the best reefers out there - but do the majority of the best reefers - not sure but don't think so.

Originally posted by skydancer
Also, I understand the reasoning being against bioballs. Bioballs get dirty and become their own nitrate factory.

But, why are you against a regularly cleaned filter pad? How else can I "trap" debris that comes down from the tank?
Don't some people use a sock in their sump?

[Siffy]

Sorry for asking here, but how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites? The only benefit/difference I'd see would be the anaerobic processes going on inside the rock at the same time. Those obviously aren't high enough to affect the situation substantially as people still have nitrates even with ~3lb/gallon live rock while continuously adding nutrients.

skydancer, as for your ph, have you tried the taking a cup of tank water and aerating for an hour with indoor and also a cup aerated with outdoor air? That's the only way to know the answer to "do I have enough aeration?" If the ph changes, then the answer is no. If the ph doesn't change, then the answer is yes and something else needs to be looked at, like alkalinity. The reef buffer is a quick fix and should not be a long term solution.

[jnb]

they don't create nitrate, they just have no zone of converting nitrite to nitrate and harbour debris which exacerbates the issue - it is pretty much documented if you search RC

Originally posted by Siffy
Sorry for asking here, but how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites? The only benefit/difference I'd see would be the anaerobic processes going on inside the rock at the same time. Those obviously aren't high enough to affect the situation substantially as people still have nitrates even with ~3lb/gallon live rock while continuously adding nutrients.

skydancer, as for your ph, have you tried the taking a cup of tank water and aerating for an hour with indoor and also a cup aerated with outdoor air? That's the only way to know the answer to "do I have enough aeration?" If the ph changes, then the answer is no. If the ph doesn't change, then the answer is yes and something else needs to be looked at, like alkalinity. The reef buffer is a quick fix and should not be a long term solution.

[Siffy]

Originally posted by jnb
they don't create nitrate, they just have no zone of converting nitrite to nitrate and harbour debris which exacerbates the issue - it is pretty much documented if you search RC

I realize they don't create nitrates, but they provide a surface area on which nitrobacters reside. Live rock does the exact same thing. As for searching RC, we both know that's impossible.

[billpa]

Originally posted by Siffy
Sorry for asking here, but how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites? The only benefit/difference I'd see would be the anaerobic processes going on inside the rock at the same time.

Bioballs used in your typical Wet/Dry create highly oxygenated water, which is very efficient at converting amm. to nitrites to nitrates (aerobic bacteria) but is unable to convert nitrates to free nitrogen because it lacks a low oxygen environment. LR and sandbeds are used to create a suitable low oxygen enviornment for nitrate-consuming bacteria to live. Same thing goes for a denitrator. You are recirculating the water in the chamber(s) until almost all oxygen is depleted. The Sulfur is merely a place and a food source for this bacteria. As the media is colonized over a period of weeks, the effluent rate can be increased...and the capacity of which the denitrator can convert nitrate to free nitrogen increases as well.

Originally posted by Siffy
Those obviously aren't high enough to affect the situation substantially as people still have nitrates even with ~3lb/gallon live rock while continuously adding nutrients.

Perhaps but substantially less than a tank without LR or a tank with bioballs. There are other several ways to reduce nitrates...refugium, dilution, less feeding, skimming....and people choose one or several in conjuction....but wet/dry filters and bioballs isn't one of them....at least for reef tanks.

EDIT: But wet/dry filters work extremely well for FO systems where reasonably elevated nitrates are not dangerous to (most) fish.

[jnb]

given the quality of what RC offers (not necessarily from me) the search function is very valuable - if it works - which it does if you become a premium member - it is well worth whatever it cost 25 or 35 - I forget a year is it? that is if you are always looking solutions, I'll have to bow out of the bio balls discussion as I do not have enough experience to argue my believes (which may very well not be valid)

Originally posted by Siffy
I realize they don't create nitrates, but they provide a surface area on which nitrobacters reside. Live rock does the exact same thing. As for searching RC, we both know that's impossible.

[Siffy]

Originally posted by billpa
Bioballs used in your typical Wet/Dry create highly oxygenated water, which is very efficient at converting amm. to nitrites to nitrates (aerobic bacteria) but is unable to convert nitrates to free nitrogen because it lacks a low oxygen environment. LR and sandbeds are used to create a suitable low oxygen enviornment for nitrate-consuming bacteria to live. Same thing goes for a denitrator. You are recirculating the water in the chamber(s) until almost all oxygen is depleted. The Sulfur is merely a place and a food source for this bacteria. As the media is colonized over a period of weeks, the effluent rate can be increased...and the capacity of which the denitrator can convert nitrate to free nitrogen increases as well.

I agree with this completely, but it doesn't address my question. People seem to want to blame bioballs for creating nitrates from nothing, and that simply can't happen.

Originally posted by billpa

Perhaps but substantially less than a tank without LR or a tank with bioballs. There are other several ways to reduce nitrates...refugium, dilution, less feeding, skimming....and people choose one or several in conjuction....but wet/dry filters and bioballs isn't one of them....at least for reef tanks.

EDIT: But wet/dry filters work extremely well for FO systems where reasonably elevated nitrates are not dangerous to (most) fish.

I obviously know this as I'm responding to a thread about denitrifiers. I feel like I'm being talked down to by a couple people here, so I'm going to stop bothering. Yes, I've read this entire thread. Yes, I know how the Nitrogen Cycle works.

Dilution is a poor method to attempt the reduction of nitrates. Skimming will not reduce them (it indirectly reduces the causes, but not directly). And less feeding may not be possible.

[Siffy]

Originally posted by jnb
given the quality of what RC offers (not necessarily from me) the search function is very valuable - if it works - which it does if you become a premium member - it is well worth whatever it cost 25 or 35 - I forget a year is it? that is if you are always looking solutions, I'll have to bow out of the bio balls discussion as I do not have enough experience to argue my believes (which may very well not be valid)

I've been told the search function doesn't work any better/more often for premium members.

[fishdoc11]

Originally posted by Siffy
I've been told the search function doesn't work any better/more often for premium members.

It works 99% of the time for me.

I feel like I'm being talked down to by a couple people here, so I'm going to stop bothering. Yes, I've read this entire thread. Yes, I know how the Nitrogen Cycle works.

FWIW it looks to me like your question was answered very well. I really don't see why you feel like you are being talked down to.

Chris

[Siffy]

My original question was "how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites?" Which is impossible.

I asked that after seeing them called nitrate factories, like that's a bad thing. It's exactly what you want them to be.

I felt talked down to when the topic went from nutrient amounts like I'd brought up to "how bioballs work". Especially after mentioning the anaerobic zone qualities of live rock.

[fishdoc11]

My original question was "how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites?" Which is impossible.

Yeah, that was the question that was answered. Maybe something is being lost in communication??????

[Fishboy42]

Good points billpa

Originally posted by Siffy
how are bioballs going to create more nitrates than live rock with the same amount of input nitrites? The only benefit/difference I'd see would be the anaerobic processes going on inside the rock at the same time.

I don't think bioballs are going to create significantly more nitrate than rock, the only thing I can think of is that dead bacteria and detritus building up in the bioballs are left there to decay or be broken down further by bacteria, whereas the same things in live rock are used by worms, pods, and other life and so they are re-incoorporated as biomass and not solubilized back into the water. If the water is mechanically filtered before going into the bioballs, it will help, of course bacterial biomass will still build up, but perhaps detritus accumulation will be lower. If there are mechanical filters in the system that are cleaned frequently, any detritus generated by the biofilter could be removed from the system before it breaks down further, assuming it is flushed from the filter.

I also believe that in lightly-stocked systems and in reeftanks, bioballs simply aren't needed with the amount of rock usually being used, in that case they only serve as a trap for detritus and do generate nitrates from the trapped materials. I think you're right about the anaerobic processes in the rock, but for most tanks that is probably, like you said, not going to make a huge difference in nitrate reduction.

Of course for some systems (any heavily-stocked FO system-- like my clown system mentioned earlier), live rock does not provide enough surface area or air/water interface for proper oxygenation and habitat for nitrifying bacteria--but bioballs can do both, and like you say, their job IS making nitrates. Of course this leads to a nitrate build-up that is costly and time-consuming to control with water changes, so I guess that's why I'm watching this thread!

As far as preventing nitrates, I'm not going to reduce my feeding, and I doubt others will want to either, but skimming (especially with ozone I'm finding) surely helps prevent the eventual formation of nitrates (although doesn't directly remove them), and mechanical filtration (if cleaned frequently) will prevent lots of material from breaking down. HTH

-Matt

[jnb]

siffy - I promise - it does work - maybe even more than 99% of the time - you can contact RC membership and they will confirm or do a global thread somewhere - can't even guess how many dollars it has saved me and life saved or better nutured (I guess it also has made me spend money)

Originally posted by Siffy
I've been told the search function doesn't work any better/more often for premium members.

[skydancer]

Originally posted by skydancer
I have 600 lbs of live rock in the tank.

I thought the live rock converts the ammonia to nitrites, and...
the bioballs (via aeration - drain tank water running thru them) will convert nitrites to nitrates and...
the Sulfur De-nitrifier will convert Nitrates to Nitrogen gas and out of the water column...

Do I have it all wrong?

So back to my original question above.
I think we have a consenses that bioballs is not a good thing for reef tanks even the heavily stocked ones because they trap detritus and other things that decay... So I'm thinking of slowly removing them, again.

But without bioballs which elements in the reef would convert amonia to nitrite and then to nitrate? If it is live rock then what BillPA wrote "LR and LSB are low oxygen environments acting as a de-nitrifier" is not the environment to convert amonia to nitrites.

I'm very clear on the "last step" of the nitrogen cycle and the denitrifier's ability to convert nitrates to nitrogen via a low-oxygen environment.

I guess am trying to understand the high-oxygen vs the low-oxygen environment in the reef without bioballs.

1) Amonia to Nitrite is done by _______?
2) Nitrite to Nitrate is done by _______?
3) Nitrate to Nitrogen is done by the _______ and partially by the Sulfur De-nitrifier.

Can someone fill in the blanks above?

De-Nitrifier UPDATE:
Day 14: a couple of days ago I increased the drip rate to about 5 drops/sec. The effluent still measures ZERO or very close to it for Nitrates. The tank water's Nitrates are still at the 30-50 level.

[Siffy]

Originally posted by skydancer
So back to my original question above.
I think we have a consenses that bioballs is not a good thing for reef tanks even the heavily stocked ones because they trap detritus and other things that decay... So I'm thinking of slowly removing them, again.

But without bioballs which elements in the reef would convert amonia to nitrite and then to nitrate? If it is live rock then what BillPA wrote "LR and LSB are low oxygen environments acting as a de-nitrifier" is not the environment to convert amonia to nitrites.

Mainly your liverock (outer parts) and livesand (upper portion). They're big oxygen rich/high oxygen environments for converting ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate. Both those processes use up oxygen, NH4 + O2 (dissolved in the water) -> NO2 and then NO2 + O2 -> NO3. Of course those equations are neither balanced nor complete, they're more complicated but enough for an explanation.

Liverock and livesand are both aerobic and anaerobic environments. It just depends if you're talking about their surface (or relatively close to) or their inner portions.

Originally posted by skydancer
I'm very clear on the "last step" of the nitrogen cycle and the denitrifier's ability to convert nitrates to nitrogen via a low-oxygen environment.

I guess am trying to understand the high-oxygen vs the low-oxygen environment in the reef without bioballs.

1) Amonia to Nitrite is done by _______?
2) Nitrite to Nitrate is done by _______?
3) Nitrate to Nitrogen is done by the _______ and partially by the Sulfur De-nitrifier.

Can someone fill in the blanks above?

To fill in all your blanks simply would be to just say bacteria. I don’t know the specific species names for them, but there are literally thousands if not millions. Wish I could see a list for the reef actually. They grow on everything. From the glass of the aquarium, your snails, your sand, your rock, to your skin. They’re just all different types consuming different things. The ones living where oxygen is present perform ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate.

Originally posted by skydancer
De-Nitrifier UPDATE:
Day 14: a couple of days ago I increased the drip rate to about 5 drops/sec. The effluent still measures ZERO or very close to it for Nitrates. The tank water's Nitrates are still at the 30-50 level.

The turnover of a coil denitrifier should be between .6x-1x per hour, meaning it should take a quantity of water an hour to an hour and a half to enter and then exit that system. But it varies with the oxygen and nutrient levels of your system. It should be faster for a sulfur denitrifier, but that’s still why you’re having to adjust the drip rate. You’re reaching the equilibrium point for your system where all the oxygen gets used up at a point in the middle. Then all the nitrates get used up before the water leaves the unit. Your optimal drip rate will be 1 less than a rate where you can detect nitrates as you likely already know and are trying to achieve.

The inside of your liverock and lower portions of a deep sand bed are anaerobic (low or no oxygen because the water in it doesn’t get turned over multiple times per hour) and will act with denitrification properties. Without the sulfur addition, this process is hindered as the denitrification will produce O2 gas in addition to N2 gas and water. The nitrobacters have to use up the O2 again before going back to NO3 for their source. When the sulfur is present N2 and SO4 compounds are the bulk created keeping the environment no oxygen instead of low oxygen.

Pretty pictures here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle
And more info, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification

This has been my general understanding, and would love for someone with a chemistry degree correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstanding something as I may be.

[skydancer]

Thank you Siffy, very good summary.

So I've decided. Bioballs are gone, but slowly...

[billpa]

Originally posted by Siffy
I agree with this completely, but it doesn't address my question. People seem to want to blame bioballs for creating nitrates from nothing, and that simply can't happen.

I obviously know this as I'm responding to a thread about denitrifiers. I feel like I'm being talked down to by a couple people here, so I'm going to stop bothering. Yes, I've read this entire thread. Yes, I know how the Nitrogen Cycle works.

Dilution is a poor method to attempt the reduction of nitrates. Skimming will not reduce them (it indirectly reduces the causes, but not directly). And less feeding may not be possible.

Honestly...I do not know why you thought I was "talking down to you". That wasn't my intention at all. However, in hindsight, I do feel like you are trying to start an arguement. If you like bioballs...so be it. I don't care. Different strokes

As far as dilution being a poor method to attempt to reduce nitrates...I'm not sure what data you have to back that up. I have many times reduced my nitrate levels significantly with consecutive and sometimes large water changes.

Skimming will reduce them indirectly. You are taking out organics before they can break down. How hard is that to understand?

And yes less feeding may not be possible...but it also may be possible I know that my hand gets a little heavy at times....am I the only one that overfeeds my fish!

The point is...there are many ways to reduce nitrates...if bioballs work for you...more power to you.

[skydancer]

Biilpa, just to keep the record straight..
I was the one asking questions about bioballs since I'm currently using them in my reef. So you may be a little confused as to Siffy's comments. I don't think he endorsed the use of bioballs.

But neither here nor there, this thread started as a Sulfur DeNitrifier discussion and evaluation of the units.

Logman17, Jnb and I have bought Sulfur Di-nitrifier's from Midwest Aquatic and we are comparing notes, experiences, progress and results.

Thank you all.

[jnb]

I just received my nitrate test and will test tonight; I know I am starting with less nitrate then some and midwest has told me, in that case, my denit. unit may take a little longer to get going - but it has been almost two weeks so I expect 0 out of the unit and 5-10 in the tank. I have notied my ph is dropping a bit - but this may be in part to the rowaphos i installed sunday but I think this happens too, when the denit. unit starts becoming effective (with bacteria pulling out 02, etc)

Originally posted by skydancer
Biilpa, just to keep the record straight..
I was the one asking questions about bioballs since I'm currently using them in my reef. So you may be a little confused as to Siffy's comments. I don't think he endorsed the use of bioballs.

But neither here nor there, this thread started as a Sulfur DeNitrifier discussion and evaluation of the units.

Logman17, Jnb and I have bought Sulfur Di-nitrifier's from Midwest Aquatic and we are comparing notes, experiences, progress and results.

Thank you all.