Euro-Reef Eheim NW Thread - Page 4

kentrob11 · 10/15/2006, 07:35 AM

Baja- have you measured the air pull on your 4100's? Do they have the stock needlewheel in them? I'm getting about 3100LPH collectively from the 4 I have on my skimmer (very similar to yours) but have heard there is potential for more.....

bond007069 · 10/15/2006, 09:04 AM

Baja, are you unhappy with the 4100 performance?

Jim_S · 10/15/2006, 09:42 AM

In the past, ER has offered discounted rates on pumps and impellers for current ER product owners. I hope they make the decision to continue doing so.

Jim

hansmatt · 10/15/2006, 02:19 PM

If you purchase a new system, they will offer a 30 day grace period where you can get a free impeller upgrade. New impeller is supposed to be announced this week (says Euroreef) but no word posted on their site. No word on what pumps & models will get them, or when (though some are getting them direct with the new pumps from Euroreef)

baja_hammer2003 · 10/15/2006, 02:48 PM

after about 1 1/2 years on them 1 makes alot of noise and 1 leaks cleaned many times new o-rings. No never put a gage on them to see how much air they pull it has been a great skimmer. would like to up grade pumps soon. was wondering if the needle wheels would fit in a 1262? something i plan to look into

sjm817 · 10/15/2006, 08:43 PM

I want to see if a normal 1262 can be changed to a NW with an impeller swap. I've seen several failed attempts to convert 1260s. After the great investigative work done by the people in this thread, it seems the Deltec, H&S 1260s are for all intents and purposes, 1262 pumps. The reason the 1260 conversions haven't worked is the larger volute is needed which the 1262 has.
$110 for H&S impeller + $130 Eheim 1262 = $240 Eheim "1260" NW?

kentrob11 · 10/15/2006, 09:58 PM

How about $130 1262 plus a $5 mesh wheel?

McCrary · 10/15/2006, 10:06 PM

The impellers that both H&S and ER use are worth the extra money, IMO.

sjm817 · 10/15/2006, 10:08 PM

I like the look of that ER NW. I have an RS250 which uses the SP5 GenX 6000 pump. The new NW for these pumps are out very soon too. I'm curious to see if it looks like the Eheim NW.

kentrob11 · 10/15/2006, 10:09 PM

I agree....I was just thinking in terms of a cost effective alternative that produced the same results. If someone could reverse engineer the new ER needlewheel/impeller assembly they'd have a sweet thing going.....

McCrary · 10/15/2006, 10:25 PM

H&S/Deltec and ER spend a lot of time testing impeller designs. There are cost effective alternatives, but they will not provide the same bubble consistency and size that the big companies provide in their impellers.

mavgi · 10/15/2006, 10:36 PM

i have the eheim 1260 H&S pump it's the same impeller as the ER have i pull with this pump in my air meter 15 l/min with my gen x 6000 modify with the mesh i pull about 22 l/min . the different between the eheim pump work more quite then the gen x . one thing i don't know to explain the eheim pull dark brown color and the gen x pull dark green color .
the gen x pull more skimmate then the eheim but i think it's because the pump pull more air.
more then that with the mesh material the pump take more watt then the regular impeller.

mavgi · 10/15/2006, 10:37 PM

sorry d/p

kentrob11 · 10/15/2006, 11:07 PM

What did the 1262 pull with the meshwheel? I am getting appx 3100LPH out of my 4 Gen-X 4100's on the skimmer I built for my system using gutterwheels but the meshwheel seems to work even better according to experiments I did with a Gen-X 1500 I had laying around. I would consider switching to 1262s if I could get at least what I'm getting out of the 4100's now......

UCanDoIt · 10/15/2006, 11:24 PM

I know that the average H&S Eheim gets 850-900lph or 3400-3600lph total. A lot will depend on how much backpressure is getting from the volume of skimmer body water on each pump. On my H&S A200 single Eheim, I was getting 1,000lph, it was pretty impressive.

cerreta · 10/16/2006, 03:00 AM

I agree with Turbosnail. The mesh wheel mods and GG mods are too inconsistent. I have not gotten one to even match the air draw of my ER pinwheel.

Quote:

The reason the 1260 conversions haven't worked is the larger volute is needed which the 1262 has.

There is no reason to buy a whole impeller. Just cut the vanes off the stock Eheim 1262 impeller and push an ER pinwheel into place. They sell these on the website for about $30.00. That is a cheap solution. You will get the new design PW too. When I looked at the impeller that came with the Eheim 1262, you could see that this is the exact mod ER had done. It was obvious that they just chopped the vanes off the 1262 impeller that came with the pump.

cerreta · 10/16/2006, 03:01 AM

Ok, I have some more insight to share. I have done a bit of digging and discovered some valuable information.

First, H&S does in fact make their own volute assembly.

Second, Deltec uses the 1262 volute on the 1260 pump. I saw this first hand. I finally had the chance to inspect a Deltec. It was the AP701 model.

Third, the ER uses the 1262 because it not only has the proper sized volute, but it does in fact have more windings in the motor assembly which will allow it to perform better in higher head applications i.e., on skimmers that are 36" and taller. I donâ€™t recall specifics from physics days, but I think additional windings require more current draw (amps) but not necessarily more power consumption (watts).

Lastly, the 8 ports in the center of the ER 1262 impeller (vs. 4 ports on the H&S and Deltec) allows for greater passage of fluid through the impeller to the rotor (magnet) so that it can run cooler.

After a couple days of running, the air draw remains the same, 15lpm. I was wondering something. The ball in the air gauge bounces. I am only reporting the average air draw where the ball appears to read. I do not report the max inflections. Are others observing the bounce when testing? Are you guys reporting max inflections, or the average air draw? Mine will at times pull 22 with inflections, so I just want to compare notes.

More on the Deltec I saw. I must say I was disappointed with the craftsmanship. This was the first thing I noticed. Three facets here: First, they use extruded acrylic, not cell cast acrylic. At top dollar, I donâ€™t want to see a skimmer body with vertical lines due to the extruded material. Second, they use glue to bond the seams. This is what is commonly used in lower end units. The acrylic glues tend to run a tad and have bubbles in them. It just does not meet up to the standards of the bonding techniques used by H&S and ER which is the hot weld technique. This is a grey bead that runs along the joints and gives a very nice appearance and long lasting durability. Third, they use a black material for the reinforced areas and the dome that connects the body to the neck. Iâ€™m not sure if this is plastic or acrylic, but I was not fond of it. Others may like it though.

Ok, here are the things I liked. The Deltec did have reinforced areas surrounding high stress areas on the body. They also optimize the pumps to the body. I have heard this comment several times before but failed to understand the meaning until I saw it.

In all the testing we, the hobbyists due, it evolves around pulling as much air into the body as possible. But, the question (at least I have failed to ask) is can the skimmer handle more air draw to produce the most effective skimmer in terms of performance. Determining skimmer efficiency and skimmate quality is very subjective. It is easy to measure power consumption and air draw, but determining the quality of skimmate is probably something that is best left to the manufacturer.

With this in mind I notice several small modifications to the Deltec Eheim pump. First, the impeller pins are longer than those made by ER or H&S and they are graduated in diameter. They are also stiffer that the ER. The ER uses a more flexible plastic in their design. I prefer this over the stiffness, but not sure it matters in performance. BTW, someone commented that ER and H&S have the same pinwheel. This is not true, look at my photo comparisons. The ER pinwheel is longer and has 8 holes vs. 4. It also has three rings of continuous pins, whereas the H&S has some pins removed in specific locations.

The second modification I noticed is that the pump output has been dremmeled to round out the sharp edges. The work looks obviously done by hand, not machine, so it makes me wonder how consistent this practice is. There was no dremmel work done to the intake. I did notice that the intake volute had a threaded Â¾â€ FPT just like the ER1262 does. So that confirmed my belief that Deltec does use the 1260 with the 1262 volute. It makes me wonder if the 1262 pushes more total water volume. The turbulent water flow appears to be greater in the skimmer body than when I used the 1260 pump. The extra flow may not be a good thing, giving a compelling reason why Deltec and H&S have opted to use the 1260 pump vs. the 1262 and going through the hassles of changing the volute. I wish I could find a way to measure this difference. Any ideas? I also notice larger bubbles in the skimmer neck. I think the pump may push too much water, creating larger bubbles. Again, less desirable.

The third modification is the obvious clipping of some pins on the pinwheel in specific locations. Some were completely removed while others were only half length. This is evidence that Deltec optimizes the pump to a specific body. Trimming the pins will consequently decrease the air draw and possibly water flow output, thus producing a more efficient skimmer. Furthermore, this disputes the idea that we should try to draw as much air into the skimmer as humanly possible. So, you can expect to see the same Eheim 1260 pump used on several Deltec bodies, but each impeller pinwheel with have a different pin configuration depending on model. I do not believe H&S or ER have utilized this strategy for optimizing pumps to the body design.

So tomorrow, I will have another look at my Eheim and see if ER did any dremmel work. If not, I may attempt this and see if it improves air draw (now I feel like I have no idea what I am doing). Thus trying to only improve the things I can measure.

I received an H&S volute in the mail yesterday. So, now that 1260 WVP pump that I bought can be used for further testing. The only problem is that H&S uses metric fittings, so I have to find a way to adapt the air intake to US plumbing.

Here is a bit more insight on the skimmers that is useful to know. Deltec USA is a sole importer of the Deltec skimmers. They produce all warranty information, literature, ownersâ€™ manuals and tech support for the Deltec skimmers sold here in the USA. They do not manufacture the skimmers here. They are imported from Germany. However, I think they do service work and repairs, but this is not confirmed information. H&S sells to the US market but does not have the investment that Deltec does here in the US. Therefore, Deltec should offer better turn-around time for repairs, product delivery and customer support in the US market. This comes at a cost. In fact, Deltec skimmers cost more than ER and H&S skimmers for this reason, IMO. Try finding prices on skimmers in the European market and you will discover that H&S products cost more than Deltec products. One can conclude that you get what you pay for, but in this case, buying a Deltec equates to paying for their marketing fees and US investments too.

So back to my original argument before I began all the testing. I believe that the Euroreef skimmers do belong up their in the top three with H&S and Deltec. Because they cost less does mean they can not be as good. Importing fees drive up the costs of the German products. So does the common thought that German innovation is far superior to American innovation in the aquarium hobby. In any case, these three manufacturers have slightly different techniques for building a high quality pinwheel skimmer. I do not think you can go wrong with owning any of these skimmers, especially now, when all three employ an Eheim pump.

McCrary · 10/16/2006, 03:57 AM

Thanks for the info Scott. It will be interesting to see how the pinwheel designs could modified. I am curious as to why specific pins would be removed and why a softer plastic would be used for the pins. It would be fun to craft a mold and do some work on a custom impeller.

baja_hammer2003 · 10/16/2006, 04:57 AM

Great info please keep us updated on this.....................thanks

Rickster88888 · 10/16/2006, 05:25 AM

Thanks for the effort in the review..... Do take more pictures!!!

Just a thought, I wonder if it is possible to machine a mold out of maybe aluminium and make your own custom pinwheel with pourable plastics?..

baja_hammer2003 · 10/16/2006, 05:36 AM

That is what i`m wondering pour mold or a vacuum mold i think this would be worth the effort

kentrob11 · 10/16/2006, 07:02 AM

Good writeup- I am anxious to see how the stock 1260 performs with the 1262 volute and ER needlewheel....

scarletknight06 · 10/16/2006, 10:41 AM

cerreta,
what model deltec's did you pull the eheim impellers out of to compare? From what I have read, they do not customize the impeller to the body size of each skimmer model they make. Each impeller may be modified as you say, but I dont think they are modified for each different skimmer.

For instance. The ap851 and the ap701 use the same pump, but the 701 being much shorter can't handle the full air draw of the eheim 1260, so you are supposed to use the air tap to drop it down to 600lph I believe. It seems that by providing the air taps is the way they "customize" the air draw to body type of each skimmer, which is something H&S does too.

Also, the difference in air draw between models like the ap702 and ap902 is the head pressure due to the skimmer's height.

cerreta · 10/16/2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Each impeller may be modified as you say, but I dont think they are modified for each different skimmer.

You are right. They test different PW configs until they get one that works the best for that model skimmer. Then all of those models will get the same PW modification. I was not clear on this point. Thanks.

Quote:

what model deltec's did you pull the eheim impellers out of to compare?

Ap 701

Quote:

Good writeup- I am anxious to see how the stock 1260 performs with the 1262 volute and ER needlewheel....

I did this already. I posted the results on page 2. The 1260 had the same power consumption, 40watts, as the 1262, but uses 0.69amps vs 0.71 or so amps for the 1262. The air draw was 15lpm for each model. What I am curious about is how much water the 1262 pushes in compared to the 1260. I think there is more turbulence with the 1262.

Anyone have ideas on how I can test this?

What I will try and test today is the 1260 pump fitted with the H&S volute, and the Deltec mod by rounding the exit inside the housing.

Quote:

Thanks for the effort in the review..... Do take more pictures!!!

Dude, are you joking

I posted about 20 pictures on page two. Did you see them? If so and you still want more, than what are you specifically wanting to see. I took over 150 pics when I tested the pumps and only posted a fraction of those.

Quote:

Just a thought, I wonder if it is possible to machine a mold out of maybe aluminium and make your own custom pinwheel with pourable plastics?..

Not a project for me. I like the idea, but not sure I see the reason for this. You can buy the ER PW direct from ER for $26.50. It is proven and tested.

They also sell volutes and air intakes for the pumps for around $30. I'm sure the price will go up for the eheims, but ER is an excellent source to buy specific skimmer parts for the DIY project.

I think the touch part will be converting the eheim metric outlet to US fittings. You could just screw in a 3/4" pipe into the threads, but the internal diameter will be greatly reduced.

Will this slow down the water output? This may be a solution to slowing down water output from the 1262.

Jim_S · 10/16/2006, 12:54 PM

I set the skimmer up after cleaning it on Wednesday night. Here is what the skimmer has produced since then

I am VERY pleased with the results to say the least. This pump is silent and delivers awsome results.

I run this skimmer on a 125 with a 50 gallon sump/fuge.

The stocking list is as follows:

Blueface Angel (large)
Yellow Tang (large)
2 maroon goldbar Clowns (large/small)
Psuedochromis (small)
Flame angel (small-med)
Algae Blenny (small)
Zebra Moray (large)

Jim

10/15/2006, 09:42 AM	#78
Jim_S Timo Boll Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 5,333	In the past, ER has offered discounted rates on pumps and impellers for current ER product owners. I hope they make the decision to continue doing so. Jim __________________ We will survive in this world of competition, shooting guns and our ammunition... Bradley Nowell Current Tank Info: We're recreating the ocean in our livings rooms. With that said, I've had some ups and downs.

10/15/2006, 02:19 PM	#79
hansmatt Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 681	impeller upgrade If you purchase a new system, they will offer a 30 day grace period where you can get a free impeller upgrade. New impeller is supposed to be announced this week (says Euroreef) but no word posted on their site. No word on what pumps & models will get them, or when (though some are getting them direct with the new pumps from Euroreef)

10/15/2006, 08:43 PM	#81
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	I want to see if a normal 1262 can be changed to a NW with an impeller swap. I've seen several failed attempts to convert 1260s. After the great investigative work done by the people in this thread, it seems the Deltec, H&S 1260s are for all intents and purposes, 1262 pumps. The reason the 1260 conversions haven't worked is the larger volute is needed which the 1262 has. $110 for H&S impeller + $130 Eheim 1262 = $240 Eheim "1260" NW? __________________ - Scott

10/15/2006, 10:06 PM	#83
McCrary Can't Stop Time Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,079	The impellers that both H&S and ER use are worth the extra money, IMO. __________________ Matt Patience is the best remedy for every trouble. Titus Maccius Plautus (254 BC - 184 BC), Rudens

10/15/2006, 10:08 PM	#84
sjm817 On Yer left! Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 18,777	I like the look of that ER NW. I have an RS250 which uses the SP5 GenX 6000 pump. The new NW for these pumps are out very soon too. I'm curious to see if it looks like the Eheim NW. __________________ - Scott

10/15/2006, 07:35 AM	#76
kentrob11 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: O'Fallon, IL Posts: 4,520	Baja- have you measured the air pull on your 4100's? Do they have the stock needlewheel in them? I'm getting about 3100LPH collectively from the 4 I have on my skimmer (very similar to yours) but have heard there is potential for more.....

10/15/2006, 09:04 AM	#77
bond007069 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,193	Baja, are you unhappy with the 4100 performance?

10/15/2006, 02:48 PM	#80
baja_hammer2003 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: fla Posts: 261	after about 1 1/2 years on them 1 makes alot of noise and 1 leaks cleaned many times new o-rings. No never put a gage on them to see how much air they pull it has been a great skimmer. would like to up grade pumps soon. was wondering if the needle wheels would fit in a 1262? something i plan to look into

10/15/2006, 09:58 PM	#82
kentrob11 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: O'Fallon, IL Posts: 4,520	How about $130 1262 plus a $5 mesh wheel?

10/15/2006, 10:09 PM	#85
kentrob11 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: O'Fallon, IL Posts: 4,520	I agree....I was just thinking in terms of a cost effective alternative that produced the same results. If someone could reverse engineer the new ER needlewheel/impeller assembly they'd have a sweet thing going.....

10/15/2006, 10:25 PM	#86
McCrary Can't Stop Time Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,079	H&S/Deltec and ER spend a lot of time testing impeller designs. There are cost effective alternatives, but they will not provide the same bubble consistency and size that the big companies provide in their impellers. __________________ Matt Patience is the best remedy for every trouble. Titus Maccius Plautus (254 BC - 184 BC), Rudens

10/15/2006, 10:36 PM	#87
mavgi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: queens n.y Posts: 2,209	i have the eheim 1260 H&S pump it's the same impeller as the ER have i pull with this pump in my air meter 15 l/min with my gen x 6000 modify with the mesh i pull about 22 l/min . the different between the eheim pump work more quite then the gen x . one thing i don't know to explain the eheim pull dark brown color and the gen x pull dark green color . the gen x pull more skimmate then the eheim but i think it's because the pump pull more air. more then that with the mesh material the pump take more watt then the regular impeller.

10/15/2006, 10:37 PM	#88
mavgi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: queens n.y Posts: 2,209	sorry d/p

10/15/2006, 11:07 PM	#89
kentrob11 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: O'Fallon, IL Posts: 4,520	What did the 1262 pull with the meshwheel? I am getting appx 3100LPH out of my 4 Gen-X 4100's on the skimmer I built for my system using gutterwheels but the meshwheel seems to work even better according to experiments I did with a Gen-X 1500 I had laying around. I would consider switching to 1262s if I could get at least what I'm getting out of the 4100's now......

10/15/2006, 11:24 PM	#90
UCanDoIt Moved On Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 1,684	I know that the average H&S Eheim gets 850-900lph or 3400-3600lph total. A lot will depend on how much backpressure is getting from the volume of skimmer body water on each pump. On my H&S A200 single Eheim, I was getting 1,000lph, it was pretty impressive.

10/16/2006, 03:01 AM	#92
cerreta Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,551	Ok, I have some more insight to share. I have done a bit of digging and discovered some valuable information. First, H&S does in fact make their own volute assembly. Second, Deltec uses the 1262 volute on the 1260 pump. I saw this first hand. I finally had the chance to inspect a Deltec. It was the AP701 model. Third, the ER uses the 1262 because it not only has the proper sized volute, but it does in fact have more windings in the motor assembly which will allow it to perform better in higher head applications i.e., on skimmers that are 36" and taller. I donâ€™t recall specifics from physics days, but I think additional windings require more current draw (amps) but not necessarily more power consumption (watts). Lastly, the 8 ports in the center of the ER 1262 impeller (vs. 4 ports on the H&S and Deltec) allows for greater passage of fluid through the impeller to the rotor (magnet) so that it can run cooler. After a couple days of running, the air draw remains the same, 15lpm. I was wondering something. The ball in the air gauge bounces. I am only reporting the average air draw where the ball appears to read. I do not report the max inflections. Are others observing the bounce when testing? Are you guys reporting max inflections, or the average air draw? Mine will at times pull 22 with inflections, so I just want to compare notes. More on the Deltec I saw. I must say I was disappointed with the craftsmanship. This was the first thing I noticed. Three facets here: First, they use extruded acrylic, not cell cast acrylic. At top dollar, I donâ€™t want to see a skimmer body with vertical lines due to the extruded material. Second, they use glue to bond the seams. This is what is commonly used in lower end units. The acrylic glues tend to run a tad and have bubbles in them. It just does not meet up to the standards of the bonding techniques used by H&S and ER which is the hot weld technique. This is a grey bead that runs along the joints and gives a very nice appearance and long lasting durability. Third, they use a black material for the reinforced areas and the dome that connects the body to the neck. Iâ€™m not sure if this is plastic or acrylic, but I was not fond of it. Others may like it though. Ok, here are the things I liked. The Deltec did have reinforced areas surrounding high stress areas on the body. They also optimize the pumps to the body. I have heard this comment several times before but failed to understand the meaning until I saw it. In all the testing we, the hobbyists due, it evolves around pulling as much air into the body as possible. But, the question (at least I have failed to ask) is can the skimmer handle more air draw to produce the most effective skimmer in terms of performance. Determining skimmer efficiency and skimmate quality is very subjective. It is easy to measure power consumption and air draw, but determining the quality of skimmate is probably something that is best left to the manufacturer. With this in mind I notice several small modifications to the Deltec Eheim pump. First, the impeller pins are longer than those made by ER or H&S and they are graduated in diameter. They are also stiffer that the ER. The ER uses a more flexible plastic in their design. I prefer this over the stiffness, but not sure it matters in performance. BTW, someone commented that ER and H&S have the same pinwheel. This is not true, look at my photo comparisons. The ER pinwheel is longer and has 8 holes vs. 4. It also has three rings of continuous pins, whereas the H&S has some pins removed in specific locations. The second modification I noticed is that the pump output has been dremmeled to round out the sharp edges. The work looks obviously done by hand, not machine, so it makes me wonder how consistent this practice is. There was no dremmel work done to the intake. I did notice that the intake volute had a threaded Â¾â€ FPT just like the ER1262 does. So that confirmed my belief that Deltec does use the 1260 with the 1262 volute. It makes me wonder if the 1262 pushes more total water volume. The turbulent water flow appears to be greater in the skimmer body than when I used the 1260 pump. The extra flow may not be a good thing, giving a compelling reason why Deltec and H&S have opted to use the 1260 pump vs. the 1262 and going through the hassles of changing the volute. I wish I could find a way to measure this difference. Any ideas? I also notice larger bubbles in the skimmer neck. I think the pump may push too much water, creating larger bubbles. Again, less desirable. The third modification is the obvious clipping of some pins on the pinwheel in specific locations. Some were completely removed while others were only half length. This is evidence that Deltec optimizes the pump to a specific body. Trimming the pins will consequently decrease the air draw and possibly water flow output, thus producing a more efficient skimmer. Furthermore, this disputes the idea that we should try to draw as much air into the skimmer as humanly possible. So, you can expect to see the same Eheim 1260 pump used on several Deltec bodies, but each impeller pinwheel with have a different pin configuration depending on model. I do not believe H&S or ER have utilized this strategy for optimizing pumps to the body design. So tomorrow, I will have another look at my Eheim and see if ER did any dremmel work. If not, I may attempt this and see if it improves air draw (now I feel like I have no idea what I am doing). Thus trying to only improve the things I can measure. I received an H&S volute in the mail yesterday. So, now that 1260 WVP pump that I bought can be used for further testing. The only problem is that H&S uses metric fittings, so I have to find a way to adapt the air intake to US plumbing. Here is a bit more insight on the skimmers that is useful to know. Deltec USA is a sole importer of the Deltec skimmers. They produce all warranty information, literature, ownersâ€™ manuals and tech support for the Deltec skimmers sold here in the USA. They do not manufacture the skimmers here. They are imported from Germany. However, I think they do service work and repairs, but this is not confirmed information. H&S sells to the US market but does not have the investment that Deltec does here in the US. Therefore, Deltec should offer better turn-around time for repairs, product delivery and customer support in the US market. This comes at a cost. In fact, Deltec skimmers cost more than ER and H&S skimmers for this reason, IMO. Try finding prices on skimmers in the European market and you will discover that H&S products cost more than Deltec products. One can conclude that you get what you pay for, but in this case, buying a Deltec equates to paying for their marketing fees and US investments too. So back to my original argument before I began all the testing. I believe that the Euroreef skimmers do belong up their in the top three with H&S and Deltec. Because they cost less does mean they can not be as good. Importing fees drive up the costs of the German products. So does the common thought that German innovation is far superior to American innovation in the aquarium hobby. In any case, these three manufacturers have slightly different techniques for building a high quality pinwheel skimmer. I do not think you can go wrong with owning any of these skimmers, especially now, when all three employ an Eheim pump. __________________ Cheers, Scott

10/16/2006, 03:57 AM	#93
McCrary Can't Stop Time Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,079	Thanks for the info Scott. It will be interesting to see how the pinwheel designs could modified. I am curious as to why specific pins would be removed and why a softer plastic would be used for the pins. It would be fun to craft a mold and do some work on a custom impeller. __________________ Matt Patience is the best remedy for every trouble. Titus Maccius Plautus (254 BC - 184 BC), Rudens

10/16/2006, 04:57 AM	#94
baja_hammer2003 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: fla Posts: 261	Great info please keep us updated on this.....................thanks

10/16/2006, 05:25 AM	#95
Rickster88888 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 96	Thanks for the effort in the review..... Do take more pictures!!! Just a thought, I wonder if it is possible to machine a mold out of maybe aluminium and make your own custom pinwheel with pourable plastics?..

10/16/2006, 05:36 AM	#96
baja_hammer2003 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: fla Posts: 261	That is what i`m wondering pour mold or a vacuum mold i think this would be worth the effort

10/16/2006, 07:02 AM	#97
kentrob11 Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: O'Fallon, IL Posts: 4,520	Good writeup- I am anxious to see how the stock 1260 performs with the 1262 volute and ER needlewheel....

10/16/2006, 10:41 AM	#98
scarletknight06 Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 2,342	cerreta, what model deltec's did you pull the eheim impellers out of to compare? From what I have read, they do not customize the impeller to the body size of each skimmer model they make. Each impeller may be modified as you say, but I dont think they are modified for each different skimmer. For instance. The ap851 and the ap701 use the same pump, but the 701 being much shorter can't handle the full air draw of the eheim 1260, so you are supposed to use the air tap to drop it down to 600lph I believe. It seems that by providing the air taps is the way they "customize" the air draw to body type of each skimmer, which is something H&S does too. Also, the difference in air draw between models like the ap702 and ap902 is the head pressure due to the skimmer's height.

10/16/2006, 12:54 PM	#100
Jim_S Timo Boll Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 5,333	Progress Update I set the skimmer up after cleaning it on Wednesday night. Here is what the skimmer has produced since then I am VERY pleased with the results to say the least. This pump is silent and delivers awsome results. I run this skimmer on a 125 with a 50 gallon sump/fuge. The stocking list is as follows: Blueface Angel (large) Yellow Tang (large) 2 maroon goldbar Clowns (large/small) Psuedochromis (small) Flame angel (small-med) Algae Blenny (small) Zebra Moray (large) Jim __________________ We will survive in this world of competition, shooting guns and our ammunition... Bradley Nowell Current Tank Info: We're recreating the ocean in our livings rooms. With that said, I've had some ups and downs.