New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by SPotter

Tim, do you have anything to add to internal temp issues and testing that you have been doing?

Hi Steve-

We selected the Vectra's internal motor temperature cutoffs based on the temperatures reached on the outside of the pump: we don't like any of our products reaching above 55C. What we found out this summer was we actually had originally cut the L1 off quite a bit lower than a 55deg C external temperature and quite a bit below its maximum rated internal temperature.

We did more testing within our environmental chambers and decided we felt safe raising the interior temp cutoff by 5deg C. This resulted in an external temperature that is still below 55deg C at ambient temperatures between 75 and 80deg F. But most importantly, this minor change maintains the internal temperature of the motor at a very safe margin of safety versus its max rated operating temperature while allowing the pump to hit its max power draw at low head pressures and high flow conditions continuously.

For everyone who is running their pump submerged, this will have ZERO effect on their experience with our product as submerged L1's were never reaching internal motor temps coming anywhere close to our limit in the first place. For those running the pumps externally in environments where the pump was hitting its thermal limit, we won't experience the slow down issue and the pump will run at its 130w full time. This will not add more heat because in the fringe conditions previously described the L1 was not necessarily running at 130w anyway, it was running below that on average due to hitting the thermal threshold and being instructed to slow down.

This experience shows one of the true benefits and joys to DC technology and the smart Vectra pumps. Not only do we know what is going on inside the pump and can monitor it remotely, we can make changes on the fly to optimize the product based on conditions that we may not have expected when we initially developed it.

Thank you for your patience and I personally wish you much success on your reef tank endeavors. I apologize it took so long to get you going again and appreciate you being understanding.

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Hi Steve-



We selected the Vectra's internal motor temperature cutoffs based on the temperatures reached on the outside of the pump: we don't like any of our products reaching above 55C. What we found out this summer was we actually had originally cut the L1 off quite a bit lower than a 55deg C external temperature and quite a bit below its maximum rated internal temperature.



We did more testing within our environmental chambers and decided we felt safe raising the interior temp cutoff by 5deg C. This resulted in an external temperature that is still below 55deg C at ambient temperatures between 75 and 80deg F. But most importantly, this minor change maintains the internal temperature of the motor at a very safe margin of safety versus its max rated operating temperature while allowing the pump to hit its max power draw at low head pressures and high flow conditions continuously.



For everyone who is running their pump submerged, this will have ZERO effect on their experience with our product as submerged L1's were never reaching internal motor temps coming anywhere close to our limit in the first place. For those running the pumps externally in environments where the pump was hitting its thermal limit, we won't experience the slow down issue and the pump will run at its 130w full time. This will not add more heat because in the fringe conditions previously described the L1 was not necessarily running at 130w anyway, it was running below that on average due to hitting the thermal threshold and being instructed to slow down.



This experience shows one of the true benefits and joys to DC technology and the smart Vectra pumps. Not only do we know what is going on inside the pump and can monitor it remotely, we can make changes on the fly to optimize the product based on conditions that we may not have expected when we initially developed it.



Thank you for your patience and I personally wish you much success on your reef tank endeavors. I apologize it took so long to get you going again and appreciate you being understanding.

That's great news Tim. Do you know how long before the updates will be ready?

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by SPotter

That's great news Tim. Do you know how long before the updates will be ready?

EE submitted the firmware to CompE but we're going to wait until Monday, after MACNA, because we're all going to be there and would rather be at the office for deployment in case of issues.

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

EE submitted the firmware to CompE but we're going to wait until Monday, after MACNA, because we're all going to be there and would rather be at the office for deployment in case of issues.

Makes sense. So now the big question.....you guys releasing anything new at Macna??????

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

I've reviewed the photos from CS and I'm seeing the following, please correct me if I'm wrong on anything:

• Pad roller filter with two ~1.25" 90's and a ball valve feeding it, a union and smaller diameter pipe (1"?) for output. Horizontal and vertical length of runs unknown.
• Two media reactors being feed with 3/4" silicone tubing, barb adapters and going into two ball valves and 3/4" barbs fittings and silicone tubing for output. Horizontal and vertical length of runs unknown.
• 1/3rd HP chiller being fed/returned by two ~1" PVC lengths, two 90's, two 3/4" barbed adapters, 3/4" silicone tubing, and two 90 degree 3/4" barb adapters. I can't determine the head pressure caused by the chiller alone but I'm seeing as much as 6' of head online popping up during some basic research. What is the horizontal run to this chiller? It appears to be in a completely different room and is plumbed through a wall.
• UV sterilizer being fed by 1" PVC and incorporating at least two 90's and two unions. A UV sterilizer features a screw type flow of water through a small diameter tube around the bulb itself and my assumption is this would contribute some pressure for sure.

I really don't think that 16' of head pressure for your system is unreasonable. Six feet of head pressure calculated for this system strikes me as not very likely; the chiller alone could be consuming 6' plus the barbed fittings, horizontal run and that doesn't even include any of the other accessories that also appear to be driven by the M1. My intention is not to be argumentative, my goal is for you to be satisfied and in order to accomplish that we have to be realistic about what you are trying to achieve and what your system represents.

No roller mat or reactors.... they are both fed from different pumps.

The Pentair has a 6" chamber around a 1" bulb... so 5" of pipe.... I don't think that it's that significant.

Still regardless of what plumbing I have why does the pump fall short 50% of marketed flow with just 3' of 1" pipe attached?

I know there are many unknowns with the pressure of the chiller (potentially high) and UV (suspect low) but exclude those and the pump is still under performing....

[peiloy3196]

Originally Posted by Rue28

No roller mat or reactors.... they are both fed from different pumps.



The Pentair has a 6" chamber around a 1" bulb... so 5" of pipe.... I don't think that it's that significant.



Still regardless of what plumbing I have why does the pump fall short 50% of marketed flow with just 3' of 1" pipe attached?



I know there are many unknowns with the pressure of the chiller (potentially high) and UV (suspect low) but exclude those and the pump is still under performing....

Just out of curiosity. Did you recalibrate when using the 3' of 1" pipe? If I understand the controller correctly once it's calibrated to a certain flow at its maximum setting it will try to keep that flow even when them system head changes. So if calibrated to your high head system and not recalibrated to your low head system it will try to maintain the maximum flow of the high head system when on the low head. This is just a guess though.

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by Rue28

No roller mat or reactors.... they are both fed from different pumps.

The Pentair has a 6" chamber around a 1" bulb... so 5" of pipe.... I don't think that it's that significant.

Still regardless of what plumbing I have why does the pump fall short 50% of marketed flow with just 3' of 1" pipe attached?

I know there are many unknowns with the pressure of the chiller (potentially high) and UV (suspect low) but exclude those and the pump is still under performing....

I know nothing about the test you performed aside from the information youve provided and i can assure you that we've done numerous and more precise testing on our products (including myself, personally). If it is true that the pump is performing at 50% its rated flow then it must be defective or there is an error in the test. Either is possible, our flow rates are as claimed.

You have a variety of 90's and reducers, a chiller (up to 6' of head on its own) and a UV sterilizer (not zero head). You still havent told us the horizontal run to the chiller or any other details about your system. What are the runs to the devices? What size plumbing? How many barbed reducers? This all MATTERS.

You are leaving us all to guess your head pressure while insisting it is only 6'. Again, I have no desire to be argumentative, but the evidence so far just isnt suggesting your head pressure is 6/7'.

If your pump is broken, we will replace it. If the pump is too small given your system, we can advice you on alternatives. What is not happening, however, is that the pump is producing 50% its rated flow and all is functioning normally. I can assure you, that is not the case. Help me to help you by providing us the information that we're requesting: the details of your plumbing system.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

I know nothing about the test you performed aside from the information youve provided and i can assure you that we've done numerous and more precise testing on our products (including myself, personally). If it is true that the pump is performing at 50% its rated flow then it must be defective or there is an error in the test. Either is possible, our flow rates are as claimed.

You have a variety of 90's and reducers, a chiller (up to 6' of head on its own) and a UV sterilizer (not zero head). You still havent told us the horizontal run to the chiller or any other details about your system. What are the runs to the devices? What size plumbing? How many barbed reducers? This all MATTERS.

You are leaving us all to guess your head pressure while insisting it is only 6'. Again, I have no desire to be argumentative, but the evidence so far just isnt suggesting your head pressure is 6/7'.

You have the photographs of both sides of the wall.... I run the chiller in another room to avoid my pump room getting hot. How much is a standard wall... 4.5 / 5"?

No need to get angry....

I tried to provide measurements and details to your team and all they wanted me to do was switch the pumps rather than do the math which is what I asked them to do.

I am not questioning your product testing... I simply believed the specific pump that I received to be under performing and asked for your customer service department to confirm that there was nothing available in the calibration program to push the output up.

Rather than follow the numbers I was given the run around and asked to break hard plumbed piping on a completely seperate system and switch to the more powerful pump.... which would have done little to prove the function of the M1 that I was asking about.

I don't know how much more specific I can be about the test protocol that I followed... If the pump doesn't perform to your specs pumping though an open ended 3' section of 1" pipe over a 2' lift then I was open to any other test of that pump that your team could suggest.

Tim, I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that your products will not reside in my aquarium... This will be my last comment on this topic.

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by Rue28

You have the photographs of both sides of the wall.... I run the chiller in another room to avoid my pump room getting hot. How much is a standard wall... 4.5 / 5"?

No need to get angry....

I tried to provide measurements and details to your team and all they wanted me to do was switch the pumps rather than do the math which is what I asked them to do.

I am not questioning your product testing... I simply believed the specific pump that I received to be under performing and asked for your customer service department to confirm that there was nothing available in the calibration program to push the output up.

Rather than follow the numbers I was given the run around and asked to break hard plumbed piping on a completely seperate system and switch to the more powerful pump.... which would have done little to prove the function of the M1 that I was asking about.

I don't know how much more specific I can be about the test protocol that I followed... If the pump doesn't perform to your specs pumping though an open ended 3' section of 1" pipe over a 2' lift then I was open to any other test of that pump that your team could suggest.

Tim, I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that your products will not reside in my aquarium... This will be my last comment on this topic.

No anger here, just sadness that you wont help us to help you.

[sleepydoc]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Hi Steve-

We selected the Vectra's internal motor temperature cutoffs based on the temperatures reached on the outside of the pump: we don't like any of our products reaching above 55C. What we found out this summer was we actually had originally cut the L1 off quite a bit lower than a 55deg C external temperature and quite a bit below its maximum rated internal temperature.

We did more testing within our environmental chambers and decided we felt safe raising the interior temp cutoff by 5deg C. This resulted in an external temperature that is still below 55deg C at ambient temperatures between 75 and 80deg F. But most importantly, this minor change maintains the internal temperature of the motor at a very safe margin of safety versus its max rated operating temperature while allowing the pump to hit its max power draw at low head pressures and high flow conditions continuously.

For everyone who is running their pump submerged, this will have ZERO effect on their experience with our product as submerged L1's were never reaching internal motor temps coming anywhere close to our limit in the first place. For those running the pumps externally in environments where the pump was hitting its thermal limit, we won't experience the slow down issue and the pump will run at its 130w full time. This will not add more heat because in the fringe conditions previously described the L1 was not necessarily running at 130w anyway, it was running below that on average due to hitting the thermal threshold and being instructed to slow down.

This experience shows one of the true benefits and joys to DC technology and the smart Vectra pumps. Not only do we know what is going on inside the pump and can monitor it remotely, we can make changes on the fly to optimize the product based on conditions that we may not have expected when we initially developed it.

Thank you for your patience and I personally wish you much success on your reef tank endeavors. I apologize it took so long to get you going again and appreciate you being understanding.

Tim-
Thank you for your replies to the thread and the information you've provided.

55 degrees is pretty hot for an external temperature - uncomfortably hot to the touch. It's not hot enough to cause immediate burns, and as long as the internal temperature is within spec for the motor it won't cause any operating issues, but the high internal temperatures will definitely contribute to more heating of the tank water. Since one of the main reasons many people run pumps external rather than submerged is to avoid heating the water, this is a potentially significant disadvantage of the Ecotech pumps.

Looking at the pump, there is a complete absence of any cooling fins, meaning the surface area available to radiate heat away from the pump in minimized. It looks pretty, but it is not very functional. Do you know why you chose not to make the housing more efficient at dissipating heat?

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

Tim-
Thank you for your replies to the thread and the information you've provided.

55 degrees is pretty hot for an external temperature - uncomfortably hot to the touch. It's not hot enough to cause immediate burns, and as long as the internal temperature is within spec for the motor it won't cause any operating issues, but the high internal temperatures will definitely contribute to more heating of the tank water. Since one of the main reasons many people run pumps external rather than submerged is to avoid heating the water, this is a potentially significant disadvantage of the Ecotech pumps.

Looking at the pump, there is a complete absence of any cooling fins, meaning the surface area available to radiate heat away from the pump in minimized. It looks pretty, but it is not very functional. Do you know why you chose not to make the housing more efficient at dissipating heat?

No problem! I always try to reply to this thread (and others) as often as possible.

The 55deg C number listed is the max allowable temperature, not necessarily the continuous operating temperature under normal conditions. In a room temperature of 72-75deg, the pump should not reach this temperature and will operate below 50deg C if it is clean and operating normally.

Any internal/external pump will always heat the water more when used externally than an equivalent external-only pump. This is because the nature of an internal/external is a compromise versus an external only pump. Our stator is potted in thermal epoxy vs pressed into a metal sleeve directly exposed to air. Essentially the outside of an internal/external pump's heat engine is insulated; it's just a part of this design.

Our experimentation with fins on the motor casing of an internal/external pump is that they are mostly for aesthetics. There is no forced air movement over the fins and due to the limitations of injection molding design there's no possible way for convection alone to move a significant amount of air past the fins, therefore they don't accomplish a noticeable improvement in thermal conductivity.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

No anger here, just sadness that you wont help us to help you.

Ok, this dialog has been frustrating me so I couldn't imagine what he's feeling. You have to first under stand his position and feelings of sinking some money in a product and its under performing to his expectations.

Whats frustrating to me and I assume him is he wants to focus not on his tank setup but you and CS do. He wants to focus on just the results of a pump and a pipe filling up a bucket. Pretty simple and straight forward results. It seems like you and CS are ignoring that all together. Why?

[EcoTech Marine]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Whats frustrating to me and I assume him is he wants to focus not on his tank setup but you and CS do. He wants to focus on just the results of a pump and a pipe filling up a bucket. Pretty simple and straight forward results. It seems like you and CS are ignoring that all together. Why?

Your question is fair. We want to establish what is going on one case at a time. It is confusing and can lead to problems trouble shooting if we look at two situations at the same time, ie the pump system AND the test that was run. Both are being communicated to us and both have a likelihood for miscommunication or misunderstanding.

Replacing the pump itself has also never been ruled out as an option, and we'd be happy to do that. This case has not been dragging out over weeks, we're talking about a few days. It's deeply saddening that we've not been able to satisfy this customer, I'm still happy to do so. Whether that be through replacement of his pump or by the customer answering the questions that I've asked and us helping him to calculate the actual pressure of his system.

[SPotter]

I will say that even though my frustrations grew over time and having to replace my pumps 4 times, the customer service has been great. I used to have an apex controller that started to have some problems. They wanted me to send the base unit back before a new one would be sent out which I did not find appealing. Each time i had to replace my vectras, a new one sent to me without being charged or required to give a deposit. I may have had problems with the product and hopefully that has been fixed with this new update, but CS has always been good to me.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by SPotter

I will say that even though my frustrations grew over time and having to replace my pumps 4 times, the customer service has been great. I used to have an apex controller that started to have some problems. They wanted me to send the base unit back before a new one would be sent out which I did not find appealing. Each time i had to replace my vectras, a new one sent to me without being charged or required to give a deposit. I may have had problems with the product and hopefully that has been fixed with this new update, but CS has always been good to me.

That's cool. I really don't like it when someplace wont cross ship or only do it with a full deposit. I bought a second brain to remove that issue and backup when a failure happens. I do that with all my pumps too.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Your question is fair. We want to establish what is going on one case at a time. It is confusing and can lead to problems trouble shooting if we look at two situations at the same time, ie the pump system AND the test that was run. Both are being communicated to us and both have a likelihood for miscommunication or misunderstanding.

Replacing the pump itself has also never been ruled out as an option, and we'd be happy to do that. This case has not been dragging out over weeks, we're talking about a few days. It's deeply saddening that we've not been able to satisfy this customer, I'm still happy to do so. Whether that be through replacement of his pump or by the customer answering the questions that I've asked and us helping him to calculate the actual pressure of his system.

Thanks. Always good to get both sides of a story.

[chercm]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

EE submitted the firmware to CompE but we're going to wait until Monday, after MACNA, because we're all going to be there and would rather be at the office for deployment in case of issues.

do i need to have to reef link to get this firmware update ? back to the main question that a lot of us -Apex users are asking , is the Vetra going to be able to use the wxm on it ?

so sorry guys but i prefer to hear it from the devil's mouth himself

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by chercm

do i need to have to reef link to get this firmware update ? back to the main question that a lot of us -Apex users are asking , is the Vetra going to be able to use the wxm on it ?

Or any other new module or future pump.... please. I would love an L1 or stronger.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Ok, this dialog has been frustrating me so I couldn't imagine what he's feeling. You have to first under stand his position and feelings of sinking some money in a product and its under performing to his expectations.

Whats frustrating to me and I assume him is he wants to focus not on his tank setup but you and CS do. He wants to focus on just the results of a pump and a pipe filling up a bucket. Pretty simple and straight forward results. It seems like you and CS are ignoring that all together. Why?

Thank you Jason2459.... I think that you get my issue here.

I don't deny that it's a beautiful product and possibly the majority of the units that hit the shelves work perfectly to their specifications. My issue was that not once did CS or Tim accept that there may be an issue with the M1 that I purchased and ask me to perform a test on it.

They simply wanted me to switch it for my L1 so that they could say... look more flow, it must be your plumbing.... or my bucket test was flawed.

I have never said that my calculations are perfect... but I did say that it was unlikely that my test had a greater than 50% error... which is how much my test results (when disconnected from my plumbing that we all agree is very difficult to agree upon a valid head # for) varied from the marketing materials...

I asked for a some sort of response that said "to test the M1 do this"....

The default response was "we cannot help you if you won't jump through our hoops".

I sent customer service photographs, videos and a detailed listing of every pipe fitting and measurement of every pipe. Their response was "change the M1 for the L1 and you will see the flow rate that you want.

When those inane questions come on a 24 hour email and wait basis it's a company that I chose not to do business with.

I just wanted 600gph through a chiller and UV sterilizer which are at sump level. I thought the M1 would be a good pump for that with capacity to spare... I was wrong to select the EcoTech product.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Your question is fair. We want to establish what is going on one case at a time. It is confusing and can lead to problems trouble shooting if we look at two situations at the same time, ie the pump system AND the test that was run. Both are being communicated to us and both have a likelihood for miscommunication or misunderstanding.

Replacing the pump itself has also never been ruled out as an option, and we'd be happy to do that. This case has not been dragging out over weeks, we're talking about a few days. It's deeply saddening that we've not been able to satisfy this customer, I'm still happy to do so. Whether that be through replacement of his pump or by the customer answering the questions that I've asked and us helping him to calculate the actual pressure of his system.

The trouble ticket in your system has been closed as "solved" in the last 24 hours.... it is not solved... you just hoped that I went away and you could put a spin on this public forum.

I will not allow you to publish such utter rubbish and imply that your company did anything to actually try and solve this issue.

This is the last post from your customer service manager -
Alex Young Tuesday at 15:40
Rupert,

The M1 is not powerful enough for your system. The L1 is powerful enough and will provide you the flow you require. Swapping them will show you this. If you do not want to swap them I cannot assist you any further. I am sorry you're displeased with your purchase.

Alex Young
Customer Service Manager

Which I replied to immediately with:

Rupert Connor Tuesday at 15:51
I purchased a pump that was rated to provide plenty of flow through my system... but is not performing at the specified flow rates.
You have failed to provide any support to validate that your equipment is working correctly.
Pump will be returned and I will spam this lack of support on every reef keeping forum I can find.
BRS has already agreed to take the pumps back for a refund.

[Rue28]

Also, if your output graphs are correct why would your customer service manager offer the following before performing any tests on my pump....clearly he knows that output is weak, particularly when running with the adapters that the pump ships with. Why else would he have offered an adapter to "significantly" increase flow?

How many people that own these pumps actually know what their flow rates are? I suspect that I am one of the few users who put a digital flow meter on them and can tell the difference between 400 or 600gph...

Alex Young August 31, 2016 10:03
Rupert,

Thanks for getting back to me. I can send you the adapter which will increase the diameter of pipe exiting your Vectra. This will increase the flow significantly.

Alex Young
Customer Service Manager

[locito277]

Did you upgrade the outlets? I bought them ahead of time but waiting to install


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by locito277

Did you upgrade the outlets? I bought them ahead of time but waiting to install


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I had already purchased the larger output adapters.... they helped a lot.

I increased my fliow on the L1 by 20%. Following that experience I jumped straight to the adapter install for the M1.

The technical support person did not know that I had them installed at the time that he offered them to me.

[locito277]

Man... And they sent you new pump too if I read correctly


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[Rue28]

Originally Posted by locito277

Man... And they sent you new pump too if I read correctly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No new pump.... they performed no trouble shooting on my existing pump.... they just wanted me to switch it for the L1 to prove that the bigger pump would push more water....

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that the bigger pump would push more water....