New EcoTech Marine Vectra Return Pump

[locito277]

They won't do a straight replacement for you?


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[Rue28]

Originally Posted by locito277

They won't do a straight replacement for you?


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We haven't established that there is a problem with the pump....

I wanted to have them disprove my test findings when the pump is disconnected from my system.

They want to focus on my plumbing and have me switch to a larger pump and ignore the M1.

They marketed a pump to perform 1600gph at 3' head pressure. My bucket test says that the pump pushes 1100gph at 3' of head pressure. (I have to look up the exact results... These are from memory... If wildly off I will edit in the morning)

I refused to break down my skimmer loop which is powered by an L1. Once I refused to switch those pumps they said "we cannot help you if you won't help us".

I refused because to reach my desired throughout on my skimmer of 1,000gph I had to hard plumb the pump to 1.5' outlet pipe with the adapter kit and it would be a major pain to break it out of that loop.

I had previously informed them that I had switched the M1 for a much smaller pump (750gph rating at 0') which was producing a much higher % of output than the M1 which anecdotally but not scientifically produces the "feeling" that the M1 is underperforming.

I wanted to give them an opportunity to give me a scientific "the M1 is working to factory spec"... Instead I got "switch out to a bigger pump, which will achieve your desired flow and we cannot help you any other way"... Which ignored my original question.

It's a long and boring story best not told late at night typing with thumbs on a small screen!




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[locito277]

I feel you man I hope they do right by you. I got 4 pumps sitting on standby. About to return them to be honest with you


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[EcoTech Marine]

Rue28-

I've said before in this thread and I'll say it again: I would be happy to replace your M1 to rule out that the pump is malfunctioning and I'm sorry that your experience with our CS team was frustrating.

Our CS team is made up of hobbyists using experience to guide them along their recommendations with respect to pump selection based on filtration setups. Given your system with a chiller, a UV sterilizer, a flow meter, and a filter mat, fed by multiple 90's, barbed reducers and 3/4" plumbing, I don't believe the M1 is the right pump for this task. It is also possible your pump is defective, and again, we'd be happy to replace it. Regardless, arguing back and forth like this is just pointless.

If you would like to exchange your pump for a new one then that option exists. If you have already returned your products to BRS then this is all essentially behind us.

[locito277]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Rue28-

I've said before in this thread and I'll say it again: I would be happy to replace your M1 to rule out that the pump is malfunctioning and I'm sorry that your experience with our CS team was frustrating.

Our CS team is made up of hobbyists using experience to guide them along their recommendations with respect to pump selection based on filtration setups. Given your system with a chiller, a UV sterilizer, a flow meter, and a filter mat, fed by multiple 90's, barbed reducers and 3/4" plumbing, I don't believe the M1 is the right pump for this task. It is also possible your pump is defective, and again, we'd be happy to replace it. Regardless, arguing back and forth like this is just pointless.

If you would like to exchange your pump for a new one then that option exists. If you have already returned your products to BRS then this is all essentially behind us.

Seems like the right thing to do


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[chercm]

Originally Posted by chercm

do i need to have to reef link to get this firmware update ? back to the main question that a lot of us -Apex users are asking , is the Vetra going to be able to use the wxm on it ?

so sorry guys but i prefer to hear it from the devil's mouth himself

@tim Marks , appreciate on your reply on this pls

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

Rue28-

I've said before in this thread and I'll say it again: I would be happy to replace your M1 to rule out that the pump is malfunctioning and I'm sorry that your experience with our CS team was frustrating.

Our CS team is made up of hobbyists using experience to guide them along their recommendations with respect to pump selection based on filtration setups. Given your system with a chiller, a UV sterilizer, a flow meter, and a filter mat, fed by multiple 90's, barbed reducers and 3/4" plumbing, I don't believe the M1 is the right pump for this task. It is also possible your pump is defective, and again, we'd be happy to replace it. Regardless, arguing back and forth like this is just pointless.

If you would like to exchange your pump for a new one then that option exists. If you have already returned your products to BRS then this is all essentially behind us.

Tim,

Why replace something that is not proven defective? Do you have no trouble shooting steps to test a pump once it's at the consumer's location?

(Also, this is the first time that a replacement pump has been offered)

What started this journey down this rabbit hole was the insistence from both you and your CS team that the problem was my plumbing and ignoring the test that I performed independent of the aquarium setup.

I have done tests with none of my equipment, tests with no chiller, tests with no UV and tests with no roller mat....and you keep going back to my system is too complex for the M1 when I just wish to establish that the M1 that I received is performing to your specifications.

I see marketing materials for a pump and reference against those materials to make my purchasing decision.

At full power I have stated that the pump draws 10% more than your rating (88w) and produces 1132gph rather than the 1800gph in your marketing materials as witnessed by my testing.

Many people in this hobby enjoy the engineering of their tank builds and buying the "right" gear to keep the inhabitants alive.

Part of my decision to buy the M1 was the specs on this page http://ecotechmarine.com/products/vectra/vectra-m1 where you state the output is 0.75" and right next to a beautiful output graph.

Input/Output

Input: 1 inches
Output: .75 inches

Knowing that I was wanting to put this pump in line with a chiller that has 0.75" fittings I thought that this graph would be valid for that size pipe... OK, I was wrong... or mislead.

So a discussion back and forth may be pointless for you... but I believe that buyers should be aware that your marketing materials are deceptive. At the very least your graph should say "* with output adapter fitted and pipe diameter increased".

[alton]

Rue what is your voltage at the wall receptacle when the pump and all your equipment is running? And in case I missed it what meter are you using to measure watts/amps? My M1 works fine, I will check the amperage this weekend. Since you are being offered a new pump, why not take the offer?

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by alton

Rue what is your voltage at the wall receptacle when the pump and all your equipment is running? And in case I missed it what meter are you using to measure watts/amps? My M1 works fine, I will check the amperage this weekend. Since you are being offered a new pump, why not take the offer?

Apex is measuring the amps and volts.

New pump?... Don't need it.

I just love the science of the aquarium hobby and enjoy some of the challenges. It gives me a chance to play engineer / mad scientist.... If a manufacturer says x and you think the pump is producing y then I like to understand why. In this example I claimed y and the manufacturer refused to validate y or x... they just wished I'd go away.

Ordered Abyzz pumps to replace the Vectra's and they arrived today.

[02tts]

So another issue I ran into with my (3) pumps is that for the last month or thereabouts I haven't been able to control them using the reef link. It was thought the reef link was bad so I was sent a new one. No change, pumps wouldn't connect and stay connected to the reef link which meant manual feed mode - not a fun experience when trying to walk the wife through it over the phone when out of town on business. Anyway, I finally received (3) new RF modules today which has hopefully fixed the issue. They have stayed connected for several hours now but that doesn't mean anything as this was the case before, time will tell if they continue to work. It is unknown if all (3) RF modules were bad or just one or two as I was told that one bad RF module can cause all pumps not to register with the reef link due to interference, which makes sense.

So, I am hoping this is the last of the issues as these pumps are just now maybe reaching 5 or 6 months of usage. Also looking forward to the forthcoming update I read about so that the one closed loop pump I have can run at 100%.

For me personally, this unfortunately continues to raise some eyebrows when it comes to the reliability, longevity and QC on these pumps or the components used.

Just food for thought.
Take it for what it's worth.




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[jduck]

Originally Posted by Rue28

Apex is measuring the amps and volts.

New pump?... Don't need it.

I just love the science of the aquarium hobby and enjoy some of the challenges. It gives me a chance to play engineer / mad scientist.... If a manufacturer says x and you think the pump is producing y then I like to understand why. In this example I claimed y and the manufacturer refused to validate y or x... they just wished I'd go away.

Ordered Abyzz pumps to replace the Vectra's and they arrived today.

You can't rely on apex for amp/volts. Mine is close but not acurate
You need to get an actual killawatt meter

[Eastamherstbias]

Originally Posted by Rue28

Tim,

Why replace something that is not proven defective? Do you have no trouble shooting steps to test a pump once it's at the consumer's location?

(Also, this is the first time that a replacement pump has been offered)

What started this journey down this rabbit hole was the insistence from both you and your CS team that the problem was my plumbing and ignoring the test that I performed independent of the aquarium setup.

I have done tests with none of my equipment, tests with no chiller, tests with no UV and tests with no roller mat....and you keep going back to my system is too complex for the M1 when I just wish to establish that the M1 that I received is performing to your specifications.

I see marketing materials for a pump and reference against those materials to make my purchasing decision.

At full power I have stated that the pump draws 10% more than your rating (88w) and produces 1132gph rather than the 1800gph in your marketing materials as witnessed by my testing.

Many people in this hobby enjoy the engineering of their tank builds and buying the "right" gear to keep the inhabitants alive.

Part of my decision to buy the M1 was the specs on this page http://ecotechmarine.com/products/vectra/vectra-m1 where you state the output is 0.75" and right next to a beautiful output graph.

Input/Output

Input: 1 inches
Output: .75 inches

Knowing that I was wanting to put this pump in line with a chiller that has 0.75" fittings I thought that this graph would be valid for that size pipe... OK, I was wrong... or mislead.

So a discussion back and forth may be pointless for you... but I believe that buyers should be aware that your marketing materials are deceptive. At the very least your graph should say "* with output adapter fitted and pipe diameter increased".

You replace something to make the person happy..... It is not an omission of guilt in any way.
Every time you say your plumbing is irrelevant makes me laugh. It is a variable that should be taken seriously.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by Eastamherstbias

You replace something to make the person happy..... It is not an omission of guilt in any way.
Every time you say your plumbing is irrelevant makes me laugh. It is a variable that should be taken seriously.

I guess you don't understand my point.... if the pump doesn't hit performance with a simple run of 3' of pipe and no elbows then you can say that the pump has a performance issue.

By adding a loop of equipment and pipe adapters you add variables to the equation that are far harder to resolve and return a true binary good / bad result.

Following KISS theory the simple "bucket" test is the best way (IMHO) to validate the pump's performance without any unknowns in the back pressure equation.... how much pipe is in a 1/3 HP chiller?

[StashuDave]

Rue,
I think you are missing the point of replacing the product...they really can't determine the pumps performance without having it in hand. You in turn would also have a 2nd pump to either verify or nulify your experience. This gives both parties a chance to see the results. If your replacement pump gives the exact same performance....then you will at least know that it isn't a defect issue, then you can explore determining how/what is affecting performance.

As far as your determining the flow based on pumping water into a bucket for a period of time and then extrapolating.... On my Vectras, they slowly start up and ramp up to their set speed. Im trying to picture how you turned the pump on and set your stopwatch, etc..... This just seems really unscientific and cumbersome, and you are using it as the basis of your argument that the pump is underperforming/ overrated.

I think swapping the pump out is really the first step, anything else is really just chatter.

[naterealbig]

Originally Posted by StashuDave

Rue,
I think you are missing the point of replacing the product...they really can't determine the pumps performance without having it in hand. You in turn would also have a 2nd pump to either verify or nulify your experience. This gives both parties a chance to see the results. If your replacement pump gives the exact same performance....then you will at least know that it isn't a defect issue, then you can explore determining how/what is affecting performance.

As far as your determining the flow based on pumping water into a bucket for a period of time and then extrapolating.... On my Vectras, they slowly start up and ramp up to their set speed. Im trying to picture how you turned the pump on and set your stopwatch, etc..... This just seems really unscientific and cumbersome, and you are using it as the basis of your argument that the pump is underperforming/ overrated.

I think swapping the pump out is really the first step, anything else is really just chatter.

Very well put Dave. It is evident that Rue did not do any real research before purchasing this pump for his system - this was made obvious as soon as he claimed 6 feet of head pressure for his set up. What is sticking out to me here, is Rue's obstinate attitude as Tim continued to reach out, ask for information, admit that there might be something wrong with this particular pump, and offer a replacement. Even the"bucket" test was not realistic, as some of the factors that were not divulged by rue was how the pipe was connected to the pump, the diameter of the pipe, and how may 90 degree turns there were: all things that would have affected "y".

His ignorance was vetted by himself again in his last challenge - "how much head loss in a chiller?". Umm well, it's a heat exchanger - which is inherently designed for a high surface area to volume ratio, which results in a relatively large amount of head loss. So the answer to that question is, well, "substantial" and certainly cannot be discounted

Great job Ecotech for maintaining composure here, as Rue essentially called you and your company liars. Shame on everyone else for jumping on the bandwagon without asking relevant questions.

While I usually don't jump into these conversations,i think it is important for potential buyers of these amazing products to understand that this conversation is a very inaccurate snapshot of the Ecotech experience.

Rue:. I hope that one; you purchased a suitably sized Abyzz pump based on "newly" calculated head loss values, and two; that you don't run into any problems with it. You certainly will not receive the same level of care, engagement, and responsiveness from another company.

Cheers

[peiloy3196]

I use a M1 in a very low head application. It takes water from the bottom of an acrylic cylinder which passes through a magnetic basket type filter that is designed for low head before going through the pump suction. From the discharge it goes straight up and then through a 90 and a 45 back into the tank which in all is 24" high. I built it as a demo unit for the filter. My point is that at this low head my M1 performs as advertised. When it was first installed it did have low flow but once I calibrated it for that system it was great. This is the reason for me asking if it was calibrated for the change in system of the "bucket test".

[mhurley]

Rue,
If you are not willing to take Tim up on his offer, either take this discussion to PM's or move on from it. He's made you a very reasonable offer and if you don't want to take him up on it, that's fine, but this forum won't be your sounding board to yell about it.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by StashuDave

Rue,
I think you are missing the point of replacing the product...they really can't determine the pumps performance without having it in hand. You in turn would also have a 2nd pump to either verify or nulify your experience. This gives both parties a chance to see the results. If your replacement pump gives the exact same performance....then you will at least know that it isn't a defect issue, then you can explore determining how/what is affecting performance.

As far as your determining the flow based on pumping water into a bucket for a period of time and then extrapolating.... On my Vectras, they slowly start up and ramp up to their set speed. Im trying to picture how you turned the pump on and set your stopwatch, etc..... This just seems really unscientific and cumbersome, and you are using it as the basis of your argument that the pump is underperforming/ overrated.

I think swapping the pump out is really the first step, anything else is really just chatter.

The method used to perform the bucket test and all fittings / pipe lengths and materials were provided to ecotech.

I threw out the first gallon / two of each test as those readings appeared "slow". Ecotech did not confirm the ramp up time or offer any suggestion as to how to run the test differently.

The test was observed by an aerospace engineer who assisted me with method and analysis.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by mhurley

Rue,
If you are not willing to take Tim up on his offer, either take this discussion to PM's or move on from it. He's made you a very reasonable offer and if you don't want to take him up on it, that's fine, but this forum won't be your sounding board to yell about it.

I had taken it offline and moved on until he lied about what occurred to try and save face.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by peiloy3196

I use a M1 in a very low head application. It takes water from the bottom of an acrylic cylinder which passes through a magnetic basket type filter that is designed for low head before going through the pump suction. From the discharge it goes straight up and then through a 90 and a 45 back into the tank which in all is 24" high. I built it as a demo unit for the filter. My point is that at this low head my M1 performs as advertised. When it was first installed it did have low flow but once I calibrated it for that system it was great. This is the reason for me asking if it was calibrated for the change in system of the "bucket test".

This was exactly my question to ecotech support when I noticed lower flow than I was expecting....

"Is there a way to calibrate this pump".... I never got an answer to that question.

[mhurley]

Move on or take it offline.

[Rue28]

Originally Posted by naterealbig

Very well put Dave. It is evident that Rue did not do any real research before purchasing this pump for his system - this was made obvious as soon as he claimed 6 feet of head pressure for his set up. What is sticking out to me here, is Rue's obstinate attitude as Tim continued to reach out, ask for information, admit that there might be something wrong with this particular pump, and offer a replacement. Even the"bucket" test was not realistic, as some of the factors that were not divulged by rue was how the pipe was connected to the pump, the diameter of the pipe, and how may 90 degree turns there were: all things that would have affected "y".

His ignorance was vetted by himself again in his last challenge - "how much head loss in a chiller?". Umm well, it's a heat exchanger - which is inherently designed for a high surface area to volume ratio, which results in a relatively large amount of head loss. So the answer to that question is, well, "substantial" and certainly cannot be discounted

Great job Ecotech for maintaining composure here, as Rue essentially called you and your company liars. Shame on everyone else for jumping on the bandwagon without asking relevant questions.

While I usually don't jump into these conversations,i think it is important for potential buyers of these amazing products to understand that this conversation is a very inaccurate snapshot of the Ecotech experience.

Rue:. I hope that one; you purchased a suitably sized Abyzz pump based on "newly" calculated head loss values, and two; that you don't run into any problems with it. You certainly will not receive the same level of care, engagement, and responsiveness from another company.

Cheers

I always appreciate that there are many perspectives in a conversation.

A) This forum has a very small snapshot of a technical issue that spiraled well out of control. Ecotech support were provided with photos, video and a detailed list of every fitting, pipe and fixture in my system. I got nothing back from them of a technical nature.

B) Never disputed that a chiller adds a lot of head loss... which is why I did flow tests with and without it. Without it the improvement was there but indicative of a 2' addition in head.... not 12'.

C) Abyzz answered a technical question immediately that I posed to them when the pumps arrived yesterday. No e-mail and wait 24 hours system. Simple question, simple scientific and immediate answer.

[SPotter]

Originally Posted by EcoTech Marine

EE submitted the firmware to CompE but we're going to wait until Monday, after MACNA, because we're all going to be there and would rather be at the office for deployment in case of issues.

Tim, do you know if this was deployed today?

[frogspawn74]

I have an m1. It stopped working over the weekend of course. I haven't contacted eco tech yet but thought I would at least ask here if anyone has seen this happen. Looked all over for codes and can't find what mine is doing.
Pulsing red light from control knob. And all LEDs flash white when the knob is not lit. Completely unplugged from cleaning it and if I spin the magnet the control knob flashes red also. (Assuming magnetic energy is causing it)
Anyone seen this. Also the power supply is pulsing green.

[02tts]

My saga of unresolved issues continues.....more to come.


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