NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[PowermanKW]

Originally Posted by Herbie

Hey all,
Well I came up with this mostly by accident but it works VERY well with no inherent dangers of overflowing or starving the pump of water! Note: I am not, by any means, an expert on plumbing reef tanks or fluid hydraulics/dynamics. I am just an average reefer on a quest to make my tank perfectly quiet or as much as possible! I am a complete layman and you are to use any of this info AT YOUR OWN RISK !!!! This modification will only work with built in overflow boxes with 2 bulkheads drilled in them!!!
If you are Tired of a loud noisy in tank overflow and that annoying bubbling gushing noise in your sump, then read on........
I was tired of that too!!! My Oceanic 58 RR tank is in my living room so I was very concerned that it MUST be VERY quiet! I was on a mission to solve this problem.
I started with the Standard Reef Ready tank with 2 drilled holes inside the built in overflow chamber.One for the return and one for the pump. This is how most if not all Reef Ready tanks are made. The 2 drilled bulkhead is KEY to this whole method!
The tank came with the perferated stand tube, the one with a "million" holes in it! As you all know the water "fell" about 20" to the bottom of the overflow with a LOT of noise and splash!!! NOT ACCEPTABLE!!! So, I set out to make myself one of the "Durso" stand pipes (GREAT idea by the way!). I was able to mostly quiet down the overflow to acceptable levels. It was very hard to even notice the difference in noise because the water "crashing" into the sump was overpowering at that point. I tried everything I could think of to quiet it down. Different lengths of plumbing under the water level, air bleeds offs, slowing or speeding up the main pumps flow.........I tryed everything I could think of!
I eventually started to play around with the ball valves that I had plumbed in line when I plumbed the return system. NOTE: This was a last resort move just to see if it would quiet it down, and I had NO plans to run the tank with the return plumbing restricted.
I was able to get the tank COMPLETELY silent when I matched the return water from the overflow to the pumps output when running at max pressure running in the tank. RISKY right???....................READ ON !!!
I quickly noticed that the "dorso" at that point was not doing anything as I was able to set the height of the water in the overflow box with the ball valves on the return! So out came the "dorso pipe". I also know how touchy this set up was as far as maintaining the "perfect balance" between pump and return. Or so I thought ..............as most people do! So I set it and watched it for hours, marked the water level in the "open" stand piped overflow. Marked it with tape so I could see how the water level moved around.........it didnt once it stabilized.
Then I started to play around with the flow rates into the overflow box without touching the ball valves for adjustment at all. I pumped in more water with another small pump to simulate a return line starting to be restricted. The water level came up in the overflow box and STOPPED at a higher point with more flow and no adjusment on the ball valves!!! That is because at a slightly higher water level there is MORE head pressure pushing the the water down the return at a higher rate. WOW...........That is HUGE !!!!! The water level is somewhat self leveling ....to a point! Now you cant completely close off your return line and expect not to overflow beause it WILL. So I came up with a VERY IMPORTANT SAFETY FEATURE!!!!! I took out the rigid pump output line inside the overflow box and set it up as a higher (just below the intake overflow box "teeth") safety return plumbed directly to the sump, above the water a little bit. It should be empty at all times unless something is out of wack with the main return line! I just plumbed my pump output over the top of the tank like you would on a canister filter on a tank with out the built in overflow box.
So here is my final setup...........
On the main 1" return bulkhead in the overflow box I have a 1" piece of solid pvc that goes up to approx 1/2 to 3/4 of the way up inside the overflow( glued to the bulkhead). It must be sealed at the bottom or glued. (this is to keep the water IN the overflow box when power is out so you dont flood your sump.) I also have a 1" coupler on top of the pipe so I could insert that perferated pipe so that it is WAY above the water line and capped of so snails and large particles can not clog it.( I have about 10 or 12 inches of perferated tube so it will be next to impossible to stop the flow of water. Anything that will clog this would have clogged a "durso pipe" a long time ago!)
On the 3/4 bulkhead I have the solid tube (glued to the bulkhead) about 1 " below the teeth of the overflow box with a strainer cap on it (or I could have used some of the perferated pipe with a reducer bushing). The return for this goes directly to the sump just above the water line. It will only flow water in the event of a restriction in the main return line.........I kept this "emergency return" above the water level in the sump in case it was draining water I would be able to hear it! This tube should never have water flowing through it unless there is something wrong in your main return or someone fooled with the adjustment of the ball valves. It should probably be tested from time to time to be safe.
I ran the pump out put that used to go through the 3/4 plumbing in the overflow box, directly to the tank and over the rim. Like a normal tank running a canister filter. I am planning on adding a sea swirl where I can hook up this line to in the future. Make sure you dill a 1/8 " or slightly larger hole in the output line about 1/2" below the running level of the tank water to prevent a back siphon in the event of a power outage.
I feel that my tank is completly safe running like this and I have run it through all kinds of test scenarios. The only thing that could go wrong is if the main return gets completely shut off for some reason. The smaller emergency return would have a hard time keeping up. But anything under complete blockage of the main return........the emergency return could handle. ( You have just as much chance as completely blocking a normal or "durso" return as a this slightly restricted return.).
If the water level in the overflow gets to high (for whatever reason) , the emergency return will "kick in" start flowing water and you WILL know it because its return is above the water level in the sump and it will be a loud crashing return of water into the sump. It could even run like this for quite some time athough it will be the loud splashing bubbling noise that you will want to fix ASAP.
If the water level drops in the overflow it will just bounce back and forth to above and below the main stand pipe as the pump continues to fill the overflow box, also making lots of noise but continuing to run. You Will know it.
I keep the water level in the overflow box about 6" below the teeth of the overflow, although the main standpipe is about 6-8 inches below that water level. That is the KEY. to keep the AIR out of the return line! So it doesnt create a siphon and pull air it in. Making for LOTS of noise and bubles in the sump.
The "Durso" standpipe works GREAT for quieting down the overflowbox but is very hard to set it up to keep the sump quiet. This is most of the problem I have read from most people complaining about noise!Myself included.
With my tank set up like this my 58 RR flowing about 500 GPH is running COMPLETELY SILENT with just a slight hum of the pump! My 16 G bowfront with an Aquaclear 300 is slightly LOUDER than my 58. This is NO JOKE. I am very honest about this!
O.K. now its time to rip me up about this !!!!!!! Let me know any problems anyone can see with this setup or improvements that could be made. I am sure I have leftout some impotant info as I am getting tired of writing now! But feel free to ask me any questions or concerns you may have about this modification. I will see if I can take some pictures this weekend and get them posted as well because I am sure some of this may sound confusing!!!!
I hope this can help a few other reefers out there who cant sleep ,watch t.v., or even hold a conversation next to there tanks because they are to LOUD !!!
O.K. let the complaints and questions fly !!!!!!!!
HTH...........Herbie

[PowermanKW]

Originally Posted by jthomps123

Not taken out of context. You stated if starting from scratch a bean drain is more practical. It is NOT more practical regardless of situation. Even starting from scratch a herbie is more 'practical' because its easier, cheaper, and quicker. Do I need to look up the meaning of the word practical for you too? WRONG AGAIN.

Good for you Skippy. Now you want to argue an opinion. You win. You happy. Two people disagreeing on an opinion of what is more practical. Shocking.

OH really? Here is what YOU said "the Herbie needs a overflow box like a RR tank" and "Even a modified Herbie with two equal sized holes would be good, but you need to partition them off with a weir like a coast to coast or some sort of overflow box." = WRONG AGAIN! I have a herbie drain with two standpipes on street 90 elbows right into the back of my tank... no weir OR overflow and NO fear of draining to the bottom of my tank. Period.Then you do not have a Herbie. No matter how much you want to argue..you simply do not have a Herbie. What you have is jthomps123. Do a write up, start a thread, and tell everyone about your wonderful overflow. You do not even understand the simple mechanics behind what you are doing. With an overflow box, the water level can change independent of the tank, if flows become unbalanced between overflow and return, the water level in the box will change and self regulate to a point. If all you have is two stand pipes sticking in your tank without them separated from your main body... well that is just retarded. So do you drain your main tank down to the main drain level when the pump is off...you would have to. So let me see, drain a few quarts from my overflow box... or drain a few inches from my tank when the pump is off. Tough decision.
Never did Herbie say, to my knowledge, that this method is only usable on reef ready tanks. If he did show me. He titled the thread new plumbing method for a quiet reef tank. WRONG AGAIN.You are just being obtuse at this point. The Herbie Method was designed by Herbie, the way Herbie wanted. What you are doing is something totally different. Even if I built my tank and wanted to do a custom Herbie... I could call it Herbie for convenience so folks would get it, but by that point, it isn't a Herbie..... all it is is a drain with a gate valve to keep air our and a backup full flow drain. Again...do a write up, give it a name...and post it up for review. But I tell you... you will get tore up if all you want to do is say some other guy on the web called it this and I think it works better.
WRONG... herbie drain with 3 pipes is MORE failsafe than a bean. 2 empty pipes = more flow than 1.9 empty pipes. FACE. PERIOD. OK Skippy, 1980 called and they want their word back. The funny thing is you are flat wrong, and you don't even understand the basic mechanics of why. A Herbie uses a stand pipe for an emergency drain. Water will get to that level and overflow, but it will suck air and vortex as well. IF..IF you had 3 inches of room in your main tank the most flow you will ever get from it is what a pipe can flow with 3" of head pressure, now add a second one and it will do the same thing. Now stick with me here Jr.... the open channel drain in the Bean will overflow just like the Herbie. However, if the main gets clogged, and the tank backs up, the open channel drain will become submerged, fill the pipe, and then it will be converted to a TRUE siphon. Instead of flowing what 3" will over flow into a stand pipe, it will now flow what a pipe with 4 feet of head pressure will flow or how ever much the difference in height between the tank level and the sump level is. IT WILL FLOW MORE THAN A HERBIE EMERGENCY DRAIN. FACT. So a Bean with a true siphon back up, and another emergency stand pipe will flow more than two Herbie emergency drain stand pipes. Period. FACT. If you purposely refuse to accept reason, I can't help you. More failsafe is only obtained because he added an extra drain. If this same extra drain is added to a herbie setup it has more emergency capacity.

How old are you? How sad i've reduced you to this.




And the combining form:
1 : siphon : tube : pipe

http://www.aquaticmanagement.com/siphdrain.html

You should know there are always more than one definition for a word.

A siphon is also a medical term, and it also is a slang term. But that is not what we are talking about here.I don't really know what factor of safety you want to give something. If a Herbie ran for 5 years with out incident, then it would be 100% safe for 5 years. When we talk about hypothetical scenarios, well then take a guess. Is the Bean 100%...99.9% just to add the factor of total uncertainty. Is a Herbie 99.9%...97%... Who know. Pick a number you are comfortable with. It's an opinion...everybody has one. What I do know for a fact is that there is more safety, and more back up capacity in the Bean design over the Herbie design which is only dealing with two holes in a pre drilled tank. That is FACT. You get to be the judge on how needed it is, how practical it is, or how unnecessary it is. Knock your self out.

There is huge misconception in this hobby that any drain with no air is a siphon. That is simply false. A True siphon, as pointed out by the #1 definitions is a bent tube that lifts water by the difference in height of two unequal legs. Period. You seem to be quite happy living in, and perpetuating this misconception. Ignorance is when you don't know, refusing to understand.... well that is something different.

Doing any of these overflow has to be done with safety in mind. It is important to understand the mechanics of what certain features are going to do for the system. You my friend have added nothing to this system, and are bent on perpetuating ignorance. I'm sorry for that. I will continue to take my time and explain what I know to anyone that asks. They are free to take it or leave it as we all are when it comes to taking advice on the web by a stranger. You can feel free to take it or leave it to. If you want to argue opinions...well I'm done with that. If you want to prove my mechanics wrong, if you want to point out my errors, knock your self out. So far I find your argument completely lacking. I have been moving fluids for over 20 years. I have explained the ins and outs of both and the mechanics behind them and can go deeper but there is no need. So far you've read a write up, misunderstood it, and want to sit here and tell me I'm spreading misinformation. God I love the web. It does not get any better than that. Have a good night.

[teesquare]

I am just curious...Have either of you actually owned a system with the BeanAnimal overflow?
Why the need to argue over such semantics? I *DO* hope you guys take it down about 1200 notches - or you will likely get this thread closed...maybe worse.

[PowermanKW]

Originally Posted by teesquare

I am just curious...Have either of you actually owned a system with the BeanAnimal overflow?
Why the need to argue over such semantics? I *DO* hope you guys take it down about 1200 notches - or you will likely get this thread closed...maybe worse.

Nope, all I have is a true Herbie on my RR tank. At times I wish the Bean was never brought up, but it is unavoidable. Both are constantly compared.

I'm done. No more from me.

[jthomps123]

A submerged drain with a dry emergency drain has been known as a Herbie drain since 2004. Likewise with bean, just because I change a little bit of the process here and there but keep the same concepts doesnt make my overflow original.

If emergency drains overflow in a herbie they too become siphons. Once again in a bean the 1st emergency drain has already been tapped because the 1st siphon has been closed off more than in a herbie to allow drainage in the open channel. The 2nd emergency drain is necessary in the bean, a second emergency in a herbie is completely overkill. 3 Drains in a bean have less drainage capacity than a Herbie due to the main drain being more closed down than in a Herbie.

As to what happens in a submerged drain - many persons smarter than you or I call it a siphon.

A Herbie uses a stand pipe for an emergency drain. Water will get to that level and overflow, but it will suck air and vortex as well. IF..IF you had 3 inches of room in your main tank the most flow you will ever get from it is what a pipe can flow with 3" of head pressure, now add a second one and it will do the same thing. Now stick with me here Jr.... the open channel drain in the Bean will overflow just like the Herbie. However, if the main gets clogged, and the tank backs up, the open channel drain will become submerged, fill the pipe, and then it will be converted to a TRUE siphon. Instead of flowing what 3" will over flow into a stand pipe, it will now flow what a pipe with 4 feet of head pressure will flow or how ever much the difference in height between the tank level and the sump level is. IT WILL FLOW MORE THAN A HERBIE EMERGENCY DRAIN. FACT. So a Bean with a true siphon back up, and another emergency stand pipe will flow more than two Herbie emergency drain stand pipes. Period. FACT. If you purposely refuse to accept reason, I can't help you.

I want to visit this claim that a 3" submerged airless drain will flow less fluid than a U siphon of the same length. What makes you think that gravity ceases to exist without a U siphon? Do you really believe what you just wrote? Do you actually believe that the principles that make a submerged drain flow more than a drain that lets air in is different than the princples behind a U siphon? If anything a U siphon having to pull water over a U against gravity will flow LESS fluid than a submerged drain. Apparently what you fail to understand is that the hydrostatic pressure being created by water falling in a submerged drain is the same engine that powers a U siphon. You understand way less than you believe so please stop stating empty 'facts'.

20 years of moving fluid and you state the above?!? Talk about a blowhard.

[solos2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CECTD...layer_embedded

How about this easy fix?

[d2mini]

Hey guys, i have a question.
On the top of page 42 i posted a pic of my plumbing/overflow and over the past week the water level has dropped a few inches in the overflow but not really in the sump. Why would the water level in the overflow not be staying consistent? I'm used to the water level in the overflow staying the same and the level in the sump dropping. Or does my gate valve just need to be closed off a hair more to regulate it meaning it's an adjustment issue and not just evaporation?

[Cjsparky]

Probably just a dynamic difference in your pump output. I would make an uneducated guess that a herbie needs to be adjusted every now and then...

CJ

[Nick Fiordaliso]

Does any one have any detailed pics of this set up? I cant access any of herbies origonal pictures.

[das75]

here's rban's diagram that shows a Herbie. When I ran mine, I left the emergency (or backup) dry.

[Nick Fiordaliso]

Thanks DAS75. I don't have any water in my emergency line. The overflow box is only filled about half way. Is this ok?

[das75]

can't see any problem having the overflow half way up other than a bit of the waterfall noise. I lengthened my primary standpipe a bit to raise the overflow level to quiet it down.

[shaggss]

Great Idea!

One question if someone could be so kind to answer.

I understand that the gate valve on the drain line (to the sump) sets the height of the water in the overflow? Correct?

If so, by closing this valve, does it decrease the water flow?

Thanks to all in advance especially to Herbie!

[shaggss]

Sorry one more!

What ATO is everyone using with the Herbie if the water level in the sump varies?

Cheers

[das75]

Basically you want to adjust the valve so the amount draining matches the return pump flow. Open too much, just a open noisy standpipe, closed too much you're overflowing into the backup drain.

Found once adjusted wasn't a lot of variation in the sump other than from evaporation. Didn't have a ATO on the Herbie system but using a furnace humidifier float valve for ATO on my main display.

[hazmat319]

OMG.....I read this entire thread trying to FULLY understand how to plumb my tank using the Herbie Method. I missed out on A LOT of Judge Judy due to the pages and pages of bickering. Don't you people realize some of us have important things to do, shows to watch?!

After having a VERY noisy 90 gallon tank in Texas I plan on plumbing my 75 this way. My concern is I'm not sure how much water my sump will take. This might just have to be a "try and find out" experiment. But I'm assuming from reading and reading and reading that I don't have to have my main drain line super low in the overflow? Right? The higher it is the less water will drain into my sump when the pump is off? But I want it low enough so I don't create a vortex?

I do plan on having an ATO (how does anyone live without one?) which I plan to put in my return area with my Eheim pump.

And....I know it was asked before and maybe someone else can chime in. If I regularly turn off the pumps/skimmer to feed my fish is there any special considerations I need to account for?

I turn off the pump....water drains into my sump....I feed the fish....and then just turn the pump back on and I'm back in business? No fiddling or having to shut down the gate valve etc?

Whew! This is longer than the Bryopsis thread!

[tcfab]

I am having a 120 gallon rimless built and I am going to be using a Reeflo Snapper pump for a return. I am estimating the tank will receive 1400-1500 gph of flow. Should I have the tank manufacture do 1.5" bulkheads for primary standpipe and 1.5" for emergency standpipe or stay with 1" on both?

[hazmat319]

Originally Posted by tcfab

I am having a 120 gallon rimless built and I am going to be using a Reeflo Snapper pump for a return. I am estimating the tank will receive 1400-1500 gph of flow. Should I have the tank manufacture do 1.5" bulkheads for primary standpipe and 1.5" for emergency standpipe or stay with 1" on both?

If you're having it built I would go with bigger drains. You can always close down a drain but you're SOL if your drain is too small. The only remedy to that is to buy a lesser pump.

I feel lucky that both the holes in my RR 75 are 1" bulkheads. Most are 1" and 3/4".
Maybe one of the guru's will check in here at some point.

[Beenalongtime79]

I agree w/ JThomps... your backup drain will eventually become a true siphon once it becomes completely submerged and all air is pushed out of the drain tube.... of course the siphon will break once the water level drops down and air once again enters the drain tube and thus the process will repeat itself indefinitely. Thus, a bad gurgling noise will ensue alerting everyone that there is something wrong with the tank.

Cheers,
John

[TheFishMan65]

I understand this so I will try and answer some questions. Powerman used to be really good at answering - he and I has some lively discussion about siphons too. I ended up agreeing with him.

I would agree bigger drains are always better.

There was a question about what the gate does on the return. It controls the height of the water in the weir. Close it some and the water backs to create more pressure (and a faster flow). Open it and the water level goes down for less pressure and a slower flow. In either case it matches the output of your return pump, unless you go too far out of range.

Turning off the pumps should not matter. You will just get some noise until the water level gets back up to the correct level. Then the head pressure will cause the flow to match the return pump.

There was a big discussion about the third drain in the Bean's design. Not to rehash an arguement, but when I read the thread. It was there striclty to make the adjustment of the valve easier. If you have lots of room (like a weir) for the level to adjust it is not really needed. Bean's design looked like he needed to keep the level pretty constant.

I hope I am helping.

[hazmat319]

Well you answered one of my questions so I appreciate it!! Thanks!

[TheFishMan65]

Your welcome. If you ask again I will try and answer. I have been offline since October and trying to catch up. Pages and Pages and Pages to read

[d2mini]

So i've been running this herbie setup for a few weeks now and noticing that the water level in the overflow changes with the water level in the sump. I will eventually have an ATO set up but right now I do not and I'm doing manual top offs every couple days. As the water evaporates and the level drops in the sump, the water level in the overflow follows suit. Is this normal?

This is an amazing setup though. Completely silent as advertised!

[TheFishMan65]

So i've been running this herbie setup for a few weeks now and noticing that the water level in the overflow changes with the water level in the sump. I will eventually have an ATO set up but right now I do not and I'm doing manual top offs every couple days. As the water evaporates and the level drops in the sump, the water level in the overflow follows suit. Is this normal?

This is an amazing setup though. Completely silent as advertised!

As the sump goes down the pump has to work harder to get the water back to the main tank - less water flow. Since less water is drained less pressure is needed to 'push' the water back to the pump. So yes, I would say it is normal.

I think that this is one of the reason BeanAnimal did three drains. It was easier to tune.

[jthomps123]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

As the sump goes down the pump has to work harder to get the water back to the main tank - less water flow. Since less water is drained less pressure is needed to 'push' the water back to the pump. So yes, I would say it is normal.

I think that this is one of the reason BeanAnimal did three drains. It was easier to tune.

The third drain in a bean is the emergency drain. It never sees water unless there is stoppage/cloggage in the first two drains.

I run a herbie with a ATO and constant level in my sump and have no problems with levels. If using an ATO I see no advantages to a bean drain.