NEW plumbing method for an ULTRA QUIET REEF TANK!!!! LONG !!!!

[redfishsc]

I have a question regarding doing this on smaller tanks.

I have a 25, 20l, and 15 that I'd like to drill and do a herbie-type overflow.

However, these tanks are currently set up and I simply don't have the ability to partition off a section of the tank for a tall overflow in the tank. I can clean the rockwork out and put all coral/rock in the sump, and drill the tank, and set it back up. No time/room for a large overflow.

I was hoping to do this by just having the standpipes in the tank itself (hidden by rockwork).


However, if I do this the way you guys are doing it, my water levels would drop to a dangerously low level (and possibly flood the sump).


Is there any way to do this without having to have several inches between the two pipes?

[gonorth16]

hi all, well after reading all these pages my eyes are burning. I'm setting up a 120aga and want to use the herbie method. Anyone with pic's of plumbing under tank w/ a sump- skimmer/return/fuge set-up? Any imput would help alot. Thanks,peter

[redfishsc]

There's some good pics on this page:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...344892&page=47


Essentially this is a very simple setup. One pipe is used continuously for water return, and it actually sits about 2" or more below the surface of the water in your overflow chamber. The flow going through it is regulated by a gate valve underneath, near the sump, where you have easy access. You just fiddle with the gate valve until you get the water amount going into the tank matching the water level going out of the tank, while still providing enough pressure to keep the main drain line from getting air into it.


The second pipe is 100% emergency-backup and has no valve on it. If the valve on the main return gets plugged up, water level rises up to the emergency drain.... and you'lll know something it wrong by the tricking noise it will make.


I'm still trying to figure out how to do this without the use of an overflow chamber inside the tank.

[Rhodes19]

Hi gonorth16,

Here's my set up.

Originally Posted by Rhodes19

Cool beans! Thats what I did. I changed my plumbing over to a Herbie style an it works nicely. The over flow is abut 4" down and there is some waterfall noise but not much. That will be fixed once I can get a gate valve. No body around here carries them so I'll have to look on line. Any recommended vendors? I have a ball valve on it now and its working, but I can't fine tune it like I would like. Here are some pics.

Here is a stand pipe with an emergency overflow.




Here are 2 of the drain lines and the return line going into a flexible 1" tube.




Here are the 2 drain lines going into 1 1/2" pvc and a ball valve on the T.




The return up the back.




And the return over the back. I decided not to go with a spray bar at the moment.




Its nice to have some quiet in the sump. Thanks to every one for sharing.

[gonorth16]

do i put both 1" drains into a 1-1/2 pcv and then the gate valve to the sump? but where would I come off for the fuge section? I have a 40g breeder for a sump and it's set up like this return/skimmer-return-fuge . Thanks,Peter

[redfishsc]

Rhodes, do you have a total of 4 drain lines (two connected to the valve and two "backup-emergency" drains)? From your pics it seems as if both your main drain line and your emergency drains are connected to the ball valve.



Gonorth--- not sure I understand what you're saying (I've been writing too much for class lately and brainfried, sorry). Does your water drain from the tank to the skimmer and also into the refugium, or does your return pump send water to the skimmer and refugium?

[gonorth16]

Originally Posted by redfishsc

Rhodes, do you have a total of 4 drain lines (two connected to the valve and two "backup-emergency" drains)? From your pics it seems as if both your main drain line and your emergency drains are connected to the ball valve.



Gonorth--- not sure I understand what you're saying (I've been writing too much for class lately and brainfried, sorry). Does your water drain from the tank to the skimmer and also into the refugium, or does your return pump send water to the skimmer and refugium?

my 2 drains will go to the skimmer and fuge. do i tee both 1" drains together, then a gate valve, then a tee w/ one leading to the fuge w/ another gate valve, and the other to the skimmer area. If yes do i increase the 1" drain to a bigger size? and what size pipe should the fuge inlet be? Thanks,Peter

[redfishsc]

Originally Posted by gonorth16

my 2 drains will go to the skimmer and fuge. do i tee both 1" drains together, then a gate valve, then a tee w/ one leading to the fuge w/ another gate valve, and the other to the skimmer area.

If your two drains are both "herbie" drains (and not emergency backup drains) then yes, that would work. But honestly you might be able to skip the first gate valve (before the tee) if you have a gate valve on the line going to the skimmer area and gate on the fuge line. It may be a bit tricky to dial in, but if you use a good gate valve, it shouldn't be too difficult.

Personally I'd recommend, though, that you put your drains only going to your skimmer and use something else to push flow into the refugium if your fuge is a separate tank.

The way my system is set up, I have one tank for sump and one tank for fuge. The main drain line goes into the sump, and this is where I'd put the ball valve. I don't have a "herbie" setup yet, but both main and emergency drain lines would go to the sump.

My return pump sends water back into the display tank and also into the refugium--- I use a tee and two ball valves (one for display tank, one for fuge) and dial in the flow to whatever I want. Flow in my fuge is slow so I can siphon out junk as it settles.

If yes do i increase the 1" drain to a bigger size? and what size pipe should the fuge inlet be? Thanks,Peter

I'll let someone else answer that one, as I think it would be greatly dependent on how much water flow you are pushing.

[Rhodes19]

Originally Posted by gonorth16

do i put both 1" drains into a 1-1/2 pcv and then the gate valve to the sump? but where would I come off for the fuge section? I have a 40g breeder for a sump and it's set up like this return/skimmer-return-fuge . Thanks,Peter

Hi gonorth,

For your 120, I would go from 1" and tie them into 1 1/2" pvc. I say that because my initial set up on my 180 was 1" all the way and I was getting a lot of bubbling/gurgling noise (was also using Duros pipes). By opening up the diameter of the pvc you give the water more room to move in and essentially slow it down by moving bigger volume of water. I hope that makes sense. As for emptying the water into the sump/fuge you could either have it empty into the skimmer section or split it after the gate valve and it go into both the skimmer and fuge. Going to the skimmer sections might be the easier of the 2. HTH

[Rhodes19]

Originally Posted by redfishsc

Rhodes, do you have a total of 4 drain lines (two connected to the valve and two "backup-emergency" drains)? From your pics it seems as if both your main drain line and your emergency drains are connected to the ball valve.



Gonorth--- not sure I understand what you're saying (I've been writing too much for class lately and brainfried, sorry). Does your water drain from the tank to the skimmer and also into the refugium, or does your return pump send water to the skimmer and refugium?

LOL Yeah, it does look like all 4 line are going to the ball valve. Actually, the 2 main drain lines are 1" going into 1 1/2" pvc then tie into a 1 1/2" T. The 2 3/4" emergency lines are actually going into the sump right behind the T. They do look like they are going into the T thought.

This might be a better picture.

[Rhodes19]

Originally Posted by redfishsc

Personally I'd recommend, though, that you put your drains only going to your skimmer and use something else to push flow into the refugium if your fuge is a separate tank.


+1. Also, tying in your 2 drain lines into a T and then into 1 gate valve will make the system easier to dial in. I've never used used 2 valves but everything I have read indicates that it was more difficult to dial in and balance.


I'll let someone else answer that one, as I think it would be greatly dependent on how much water flow you are pushing.

Go with 1 1/4 - 1 1/2". I went with 1 1/2" and have been happy with it. I found a 1 1/4" gate valve that I used in place of the 1 1/2" ball valve and it worked well but I was getting some gurgling noise. Barely noticeable. My wife couldn't tell the difference but I could. It would be fine, but for some reason I am a little anal when it comes to small noises (and this is from a guy that plays the bagpipes ) so I put the 1 1/2" valve back in. As soon as I can get a 1 1/2" gate valve, I will replace the ball valve.

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by ErikS

How do you figure? The air will enter through the mesh above the waterline. Without air the water won't flow - period. You doubt me? Plug the vent behind your toliet & flush - be ready to run.

I'm guessing it's silent because you've dialed the pump way back.

Maybe I'm not following this right, but when you siphon water from the tank into buckets, without any air in the hose, it's pretty quiet.

[teesquare]

You are onto something Engloid!
There is another thread here on RC titled something like "Safe and Silent Overflow System" that uses a fully submerged primary siphon, and has a higher gph carrying capacity than my herbie system. I have installed both kinds, on different system, and the BeanAnimal style (Safe and Silent) handles much more flow and is dead silent. Period.
T

[Rhodes19]

Originally Posted by Engloid

Maybe I'm not following this right, but when you siphon water from the tank into buckets, without any air in the hose, it's pretty quiet.

If I remember the post correctly, I think the argument was more over terminology and the definition of what a siphon is and is not and whether the Herbie method was a siphon or not. The bottom line is that no air goes into either the Herbie method or the BeanAnimal method and that is what makes them quiet. FWIW, the Herbie method is gravity fed where as BeanAnimal's is a siphon, and siphons do have a higher flow rate.

[teesquare]

That sounds like a pretty good understanding Rhodes. The other added feature of the Bean method is an additional pipe which gives one more safety/redundancy/backup, and most important to those of us with wives to answer to...overflow prevention!

[TheFishMan65]

I don't really want to start an argument. But for the same pipe size the Herbie will have a greater flow (but not by much) and if all other constraints are the same. If you build a herbie and then attach a U at the top to make it a siphon (nit pick siphon by definition must go up and over - this was the argument before) the Bean design has more bends and a slightly longer pipe and will therfore flow less water - but I am not sure it is at the level we can measure..

[teesquare]

Fish- I am not sure I am understanding what you mean - and I too am not interested in an arguement.
I run BOTH the Herbie - and the Bean sytle sytems, side by side, and my experience is exactly the opposite of what you state above....?

Can you clarify?

Thanks,

T

[TheFishMan65]

T

If the height of the water in and out is the same the pressure one both systems is the same. The flow is determined by the characteristics of the pipe. More bends, rougher surface, and longer pipes all tend to reduce the amount of flow water can handle. In the example above the Bean has more bends and less flow.

Are both system the same hieght difference for in and out. Is the pipe longer/kinkier/dirtier (sludge does build up) on the herbie? I believe you, but fluid mechanics ays your wrong. So maybe something else is restricting the flow.

[teesquare]

Both of my systems are plumbed from the main floor to the basement. There are two rooms side by side that are each dedicated to 2 separate systems.

Actually, the Bean system has about 8'' less vertical drop. Neither system has any elbows below what is in the overflow of each......
So, you feel that the sanitary tees w/long turn or sanitary ells that are characteristic of the bean style - actually impede the suction/siphon enough to make it drain slower than the Herbie? Bear in mind that there are 2 active drains with the Bean - ne full siphon, one "open channel" which is a Durso type of pipe, and then a full emergency overflow....
And - in all the Beans I have installed thus far - the siphon is full, and there is a slight amount of water going thru the opnen channel as well.....
I thought that a full siphon will drain at a constant rate, and the typical non-siphon rules that most plumbing charts show- do not really apply equally...
T

[TheFishMan65]

I think maybe we are talking different languages

If you take the whole Bean design yes it flows more. I was considering only the main drain for each (flows with no air). Accrording to fluid mechanics (I am an EE so maybe I am reading it wrong) any bend will restrict it some. Probably not noticable if the only difference is the bend.

It is also hard to compare you to systems since that valve for each is actually the limiting factor so it is a little hard to say they are exactly the same. Got any pictures. I am sure the bean flows more just curious why. How are the valves for flow configured - are they closed to the same amount?

I know that bends make a difference. I originally had enough flex tubing that I could pull my sump out from under the stand. When I got rid of my extra bends/loops the drain could not keep up.

[teesquare]

Yes I was thinking whole systems...
But, I am still curious about the loss calculations that you have made - because when I have looked up flow charts, all the loos calc are based on PRESSURED, not siphon scenarios.
So I am curious as to how we can make a common sense approach available to all whan discussing the differences/similaries of the plumbing approaches available.

I have a build thread for my latest system of my own :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1762906

And please leave a comment!

Thanks,
T

[TheFishMan65]

If you look at Bean's Thread post 1644 you will see a list of how much a pipe will take given a set head pressure (I think this is feet - read a couple post I asked for clarification). This is ideal case scenario.

Yes the maximum flow is based on the pressure difference of input and output (and pipe size). The path it takes can make a big difference. Got any extra airline hose around. Cut off an inch and blow through it. Now do it with 50 feet - harder isn't it. Now straighten it and it should be easier. DISCALIMER: I have not tried this experiment.

I think the common sense rule is: keep all plumbing runs as straight as possible, and when a bend is required make it as broad as possible (hence the sanitary tees). How critical is this? Only such that at your pump's maximum output your drain can take it. Remember most of us are choking back the full flow with a gate (mine balanced without a gate which is why I know how much a few bends can hurt).

[teesquare]

No arguement there!

The only question I have really is ...*IS* there a difference in head loss calc when we are PUSHING water ( or blowing thru an airline) vs PULLING or suction/siphon....? Make sense?

I posted that question on Bean's thread. Hope to get some input from others as well.

T

[puggsli1]

Hi guys, I'm getting ready to order a 90 gal tank with a center internal overflow. What would be the ideal hole size for the main drain, emergency drain, and return line?

[TheFishMan65]

What size return pump? or what flow rate? I would guess 1.5 for drains and 1 for return, but really don't know the specifics.