Algae Scrubber Advanced

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule.

[Gorgok]

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...


Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.


Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.


Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

[srusso]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule.

Most bleeding edge info for LEDs is being posted on the algae scrubber forum. Cant link to it b/c of RC rules but with google you can find most things...

[srusso]

Originally Posted by Gorgok

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...


Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.


Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.


Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

I would first play with distance from the screen before making anything final, at least if you cant dim the LEDs.

Good thinking, a lot of people overlook needing to make the screen easily accessible/removable.

[Gorgok]

I can dim them somewhat, but i'll make sure i can adjust distance from the screen as well.

I really have to decide if i want to hang the whole deal from the top of my stand, which would be pretty safe and easy all things considered, or make a stand/mount to sit/grip the sump, which would be easier to make a hinge with but overall way more complicated....

[pskelton]

LED scrubber light design considerations.

I would like to build a LED light for my scrubber. Aside from color considerations (I think Floyd’s experiment will answer that question) I wanted to discuss LED layout, LED wattage, lumen output, How many LEDs per square inch of screen, and optics v/s no optics. I was wondering if we have enough information yet to put together a basic rule of thumb. Kind of a getting started guideline from what others have made work so far.

[Rafi]

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.

* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
i dont think that skimmer is necessary for soft coral reef tanks( for SPS i think it must be) cause its eliminate the foods that Dissolved in water.believe it or not its been 6 month that i remove my skimmer cup and its only job is feeding air on water and every thing is really good condition with ATS.

* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?


i didnt have experience about that3 questions
* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
good. more pods and amphipods. and the algae that you'll collect will be a nice , fresh and really healthy food for all of your fishes specially tangs and clowns and damsels
* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?

I use it for about year and the half and I haven't any problem for using it in my tank.
ask me and if I knew about it I'll share them with you

* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?
the only problem will be Water pump failure. Have a good water pomp have a good ATS!

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by Gorgok

I hope that 9 3W ~660nm reds and 4 4500K whites is enough for my screen. I built this...


Unlike my lights, i didn't go through the heatsink for wiring.


Well mostly. I didn't want to spoil my lens with holes for the wires.


Its alive!

Now i just have to figure out a way to mount the lights (and make the other one, heh) and re-mount the screen with these in mind. Currently its just sort of hacked into place. I really want to be able to swing one out of the way to remove the screen better...

Ditch the white LEDs. You will get nothing out of those compared to all red. Until I determine different, I am suggesting a 50:50 mix of 630nm:660nm and nothing else. If you have to choose one, keep this in mind. Hort growers (plants) see more growth from 630 than 660, watt for watt, because 630s have more intensity. However one guys that picked 660s for his scrubber gets great growth; this may be due to the need for a few extra LEDs for brightness and thus a better distribution pattern (for 3W deep reds - there are 5W DRs available too)

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by der_wille_zur_macht

Floyd,

Eagerly awaiting your LED test results. I have the drive to find/build just about anything conceivable when it comes to LEDs but I am really lacking any specific knowledge about what exactly it is you'd want to build when it comes to an ATS. I see you've mentioned several specific things in this thread - ratios of different wavelengths, mentioning people have had success with specific approaches, describing that distribution and spectrum are important, etc. Could you possibly link to some of your sources for that info? I'm interested to do some research while I wait for you to be our test mule.

I am also eagerly awaiting having time to do the frakkin experiment. Holiday time is bad with 4 kids, plus all of our birthdays are within 3 months of each other Oct-Jan. Add in acrylic projects and tank maintenance and something has to give. Sorry for the delay.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by pskelton

LED scrubber light design considerations.

I would like to build a LED light for my scrubber. Aside from color considerations (I think Floyd’s experiment will answer that question) I wanted to discuss LED layout, LED wattage, lumen output, How many LEDs per square inch of screen, and optics v/s no optics. I was wondering if we have enough information yet to put together a basic rule of thumb. Kind of a getting started guideline from what others have made work so far.

I would do 50:50 630:660 for now.

As far as layout, as evenly distrubuted as you can get.

Recent results show that you can use 1/2 the total wattage versus T5HO, but you may want to go a little higher and then you can dial back the photoperiod; better to have more intensity and shorter period than less intensity and longer period. If you have a screen sized for feeding rate, I would suggest higher wattage/sq in. So 0.5-0.75 Q/sq in of screen (dimensional area, double sided screen, light on both sides) for a screen sized to the tank, and about 1W/sq in for a feeding-sized screen (which would be double the photosynthetically active algae spectrum over T5HO 3000K, effectively).

I do not suggest optics whatsoever, the point of optics is to drive the light down to the bottom of the tank, and we want the opposite - maximum spread = bare LEDs.

1W or 2W LEDs are great for distribution. One thing I've learned is that there is not much actual lumen output difference between 1W and 2W, it's not 2x like you would think, it's more like 1.1x, and 3W are not 3x a 1W, it's more like 1.8x (it's a marketing thing, hard to explain). This is why I chose a 1W fixture and I did 3/4" spacing.

LEDs get more efficient (on a lumens/watt basis) as you dim them so you could do 3W and dim them.

Remember that these are just educated guesses. I can't guarantee this will work perfectly. Just based on what I've read.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by Rafi

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

getting the scientific data that you refer to would require some pretty expensive equipment. Getting relevant data would require that the person running the experiment actually understands how to properly construct and maintain a scrubber, and has access to pretty expensive equipment. For now, all we have is the proof of thousands of people worldwide successfully running scrubbers. And it is thousands.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!

Scrubbers have an extremely low chance of being dangerous to a system if constructed and maintained properly. If Alk/Cal/Mag dosing is done with 2-part type supplements and no water changes are performed, then the ionic balance can get skewed due to dilution, and an occasional PWC should be performed. If a calcium reactor or kalkwasser is used, this is not an issue, but the occasional PWC can't hurt, and by occasional I mean 5-10% every month or two. Again, not easy to test ionic balance, so I err on the side of caution.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.

No, yellow LEDs are not what you want. You want 630nm and/or 660nm red. No whites of any kind, there's not enough red or blue component to them to do anything. If anything else, throw in one 425nm blue (looks violet almost) or 455nm blue (royal blue) for every 7 or 8 reds.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* Skimmers in cooperation with scrubbers - Advantages and disadvantages.
i dont think that skimmer is necessary for soft coral reef tanks( for SPS i think it must be) cause its eliminate the foods that Dissolved in water.believe it or not its been 6 month that i remove my skimmer cup and its only job is feeding air on water and every thing is really good condition with ATS.

All corals prefer to have massive amounts of food in the water column. Coral reefs have an incredible amount of food floating through the water column compared to our tanks. On person's tank (you know who), which is a 90 gallon system running 2 100-gallon rated scrubbers, has been running a continuous feeding system and recently achieved a food sautration level of approximately 50% of that of an actual reef and the dual-scrubbers could not keep up, and the corals were not adversely affected.

Excess food (organics) in the water do not adversely affect corals. Excess waste (inorganics) do. Skimmers remove organics before they can become inorganics. Scrubbers remove inorganics after they have been digested by the tank inhabitants. That is the (main) difference. If you run a tank with a skimmer only, then you will have low food and high waste (need PWCs). If you run a tank with a scrubber, you will have high food and low waste. If you run both, you will have low food and low waste.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* Scrubbers and carbon dosing - Competition or cooperation?
* Approaches to achieve 3D-scrubbing in both open and closed designs
* Ozone and UV combined with an ATS - good or bad?
i didnt have experience about that3 questions

Carbon dosing (I'm not an expert, so forgive me if I screw this up) is basically feeding the bacteria so the colony can grow faster and consume waste at a higher rate. It is effective at reducing waste, but this technique works in direct competition with the function of a scrubber, so they don't play well together - your scrubber will suffer because the bacteria 'get there' first.

You can get 3D in an open box if you put an enclosure around the screen with the bottom open (like if the screen terminates into a sump chamber). You will get some 3D growth. Closed bottom will probably get a little better. Either way the submerged section will get little if any growth.

Ozone and UV are not something I know a lot about.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* Effects on livestock - Good and bad
good. more pods and amphipods. and the algae that you'll collect will be a nice , fresh and really healthy food for all of your fishes specially tangs and clowns and damsels

+1 on pods. Microscopic food particles are also left in the water column for these guys to feed on in the tank so your pod, sponge, and filter feeder growth in the tank will explode.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* Long term usage of an ATS and how to collect data about it?

I use it for about year and the half and I haven't any problem for using it in my tank.
ask me and if I knew about it I'll share them with you

Right now 3 years is about the longest that the vertical waterfall type scrubber has been around. I have been using one for just over a year and have had little if any problems, besides the situations I created myself.

Originally Posted by Rafi

* How to avoid crashes - what are the safeguards?
the only problem will be Water pump failure. Have a good water pomp have a good ATS!

+1, cleaning said pump more often will lengthen life as well.

I just read this the other day regarding metals in DSBs.

Coral Magazine, Nov/Dec 2001, page 89:

"The primary material that cause trouble are metals, especially the toxic heavy metals that are often called "trace elements". These toxic materials are often added by aquarists in excessive amounts as additives for no good reason, and in most cases they become poisons in concentrations above those in natural sea water. In addition, most organisms get all the "trace elements" they can use from well-formulated foods."

"In most cases, actually more of these materials probably enter the reef tanks in foods than in additives, and after they get excreted by animals and dissolve in the water they get bound directly into the algae that need them for growth. Fortunately, algae are often exported from reef tanks, keeping the level of trace metals low".

Many hold to the theory that "old tank syndrome" is caused by a buildup of heavy metals. Algae does absorb most heavy metals, however the rate of absorption is not well established. Better than NOT absorbing them at all, however.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Anyone using an ATS on an NPS tank with VHF*?









*very heavy feeding. The sentence did not have enough TLAs.

[Floyd R Turbo]

There is a scrubber NPS tank on another forum, but I'm not sure if he's doing a constant feeder or not.

[der_wille_zur_macht]

It strikes me as the perfect match, since it's a tank format that needs high availability of food yet good control of waste. I've daydreamed about converting my big tank to all NPS/gorgs/etc. but don't really want to make the leap on such a large scale without seeing that it has worked well for others.

[Floyd R Turbo]

yes I have that exact same dream. After seeing Gary Parr's presentation at MACNA I want it even more. His comments were that he feeds something like 5x a day, target feeds, and does darn near daily PWCs. NPS corals seem to be 'coming up' quite a bit lately. I was thinking that I was going to do a big SPS tank once I get all the stock cleared out of my house (right now, nothing it mine!) but NPS is sounding pretty cool. Oh yeah you need to keep them cool too. Cool...

[TheFishMan65]

Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt . But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder

[Floyd R Turbo]

I wouldn't mind, if I knew what the heck you were talking about!!! You are ahead of me man. I just now learned via google what a millicandela rating is. I also learned that they don't easily convert to lumens. So you got me there.

[TheFishMan65]

Ok, do you have lumen rating for your reds? I don't think they convert easily, but it will give me an idea.

Thanks

[EDIT]
Link to the ones you bought

[Floyd R Turbo]

No idea. Fixture was made for me custom. I'll see what I can get out of him.

[N728NY]

Originally Posted by Rafi

* How can we be scientific about ATS and provide empirical data to draw the correct conclusions?

I cant say the scientific things about ATS but Im using it and the result is awesome

* For what kind of tanks can an ATS be beneficial or dangerous?

I dont think that ATS could be a danger for any kind of tank. I saw it on fish only tank and I have it on my reef tank. as long as those algaes are in a safe zone there would be no problem, even when they are in tank they will be eaten by Tangs really fast!

* Light sources - can LED be more than experimental for ATS?

yellow leds are good,remember that ATS need a light with low kelvin.I use FPL Fluorescent with 2300K.

***Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the higher the kelvin rating on your lighting the better for the turf scrubbers? Please set me straight, have I been doing this backwards?

[Floyd R Turbo]

Yes, you have it backwards. 2700-3000K for T5HO and CFL. 630/660nm red with maybe 425/455 blue in a 7 red to 1 blue ratio (blue is optional) for LED.

[N728NY]

Originally Posted by TheFishMan65

Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt . But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder

This would be a more solid scientific thing to go by if you could either get a specific lumen or candela power that you need for the screens then you could easily run with that and convert that to any type of lighting that you desire to use (LED, CFL, Incondescent). Being wattage is only a measure of power which I am almost sure you will find that different brands of LEDs are going to have different mcds per watt (as it looks like FishMan may have discovered). Hope this helps a little, I'm an electrician so trying to throw what little knowledge I have about lighting. Maybe we could go back and see what cfl's worked best, see what the candela output was for that bulb, and then we could easily add as many LEDs we need to produce the same candela power?

[N728NY]

Holy Cow!!! I just replaced my cfls with a high kelvin rating! Going to definitely fix that tomorrow!! Maybe that's why I haven't seen a lot of growth! Thanks a ton!

[N728NY]

Originally Posted by N728NY

Holy Cow!!! I just replaced my cfls with a high kelvin rating! Going to definitely fix that tomorrow!! Maybe that's why I haven't seen a lot of growth! Thanks a ton!

LOL I just replaced them! Swapped some bulbs out from around the house. Wife won't be too happy. She hates the higher kelvin bulbs. She'll be happier when I tell her it was for the survival of the tank! How about wattage? I been using 13watt cfls (equivalent 60w incondescent). Have I at least been right on them?

[TheFishMan65]

I found a chart online; great reference if it is correct (I have no reason not to believe it)
13 watt CFL produces 850 lumen
18 watt CFl produces 1100 lumen
23 watt CFL produces 1600
Based on this run a 23, 13 then 18 for efficiency of lumens per watt. So at 1 watt per gallon that is somewhere between 61 and 69 lumens per gallon.
Now the problem with low power LEDs is that they are listed in MCD which apparently does not have a direct ratio to Lumens, but let me go see what I can find.