Feeding Large Predators, Please Read

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by jjp2121
I have a 125 with a medium lime wrasse, small Huma, medium blue angel, blennys, goby, small parrot and a clown. My wife wanted some fish to school together in the tank. The LFS sold us 4 green damsels and said they would be fine. They were fairly small in size, but not smaller than the Blennys.

I looked in the tank a few minutes after release and only saw 3. 15 minutes later I was down to 1. Now there are no damsels to be seen. I don't think damsels hide??

Who is the culprit? Does this mean that I cannot add any more small fish to the tank or are the damsels just helpless? Is the culprit going to start picking off other critters?

Id say it was the Huma Huma or the Wrasse that got them. Maybe even the parrot. Id say youd have to go with something larger like an Anthias.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
Not necessarily, guppies are ok for treats. Just because they can adapt to brackish or marine does not mean that their body composition will increase to the proper levels of HUFA's.

It is the proper type and not amount of fat that is required by predatory marine species.

If you have a large tank with plenty of rock work, then dump a significant amount of guppies in the tank about once a week.

This is mainly for instinct behavior and exercise more than nutrition.

Take care,
Ed

Sorry, Im new can you explain what HUFA is?

Thanks in advance.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
Very true Mike. Frozen prepared foods are best when feeding our captive guest.

When weaned over to accept prepared mixtures you get to select the nutritional value of the food.
Second, there is little to no concern about passing a parasite or bacterial disease through their diet.

Live foods can cause serious health concerns. Marine to marine animal can pass disease, and there are a few fresh water bacteria that can be passed to marine as well. Most are carried by goldfish.

Fresh water fish as food not only carries very little nutrition, but causes fish to become obese.
With humans, when we acquire fat in storage it shows on top of our muscle between the layer of skin, or in other words is easily noticed.
With fish fat develops first amongst their organs constricting the proper movement and function to keep the animal healthy.
This can lead to liver, kidney, or several other diseases, all of which are fatal.

Living in an enclosed system without proper swimming space will cause a fish to become lethargic. Fish as any other animal needs exercise.
First ensure that your fish have an adequate sized container. Second, create situations to make your fish move about.

Placing a favorite treat (maybe shrimp) in a bored out dead coral skeleton will make your fish work at retrieving their meal.

Many fish love clams and have the ability to crack open the shell.
Slightly crack open the shell of tiny rock clams (local deli) and place them in the tank. Not only will fish such as triggers or puffers get a work out in, but they also grind down their teeth as they would in nature.

Research, research, research each individual species you intend to own. This will ensure a lengthy life of your livestock.

Take care,
Ed

Just an addition to this great idea. Ive heard of putting the mussels or clams (when buying them live, not sure how this applies if they are already frozen or dead) in a bucket or small container of salt water to have them open and release any toxins that they have been storing due to shipping etc so that his is not ingested nor introduced to your tank.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
Give it the remainder of the week before going to live foods.

Try glass shrimp if you have to take the live route.

Ed

New to hobby. Can you explain the difference between Ghost shrimp, glass shrimp and Salt Water feeder shrimp? If you have the cash can you offer a cleaner,coral banded, clown etc or other type of shrimp as food for say a Tusk, Trigger,Puffer or even a Lion?

Thanks in advance.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by Putawaywet
FWIW, I had the opportunity to observe a necropsy on a Voltan Lion that had succumbed to apparent natural causes. To everyone's surprise the liver cross sections uncovered an abundance of fatty deposits within the tissue.

This animal as well as it's tankmakes were fed 6-7 days/week on a mixed diet that consisted of alternating days of raw shrimp, clam and capelin. Needless to say, everyone in the tank appeared fat and happy with the emphesis on fat.

Post necropsy the diet was changed to a couple days of shrimp or clam, followed by a day or two of large krill, followed by a day of fasting.

Several years after the change in diet all fish have slimmed down significantly and there have been no additional losses that can be attributed to nutrition issues.

So, not only is it import what you feed to your animals, but the "how much" and "how often" plays a major part in the equation as well.

Brett

I think this is a valid point. Most Wild animals dont eat everyday like humans. So even a day or two break makes them have a better apatite but i wouldnt let it get to a point where they are knocking each other off in the tank either.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by aquaticjack
Great Article I would have to strongly agree with Feeding Goldfish causing long term issues. Damsels are a bit more costly however better in the long run for the preidtor I have had a few large preditors that it took awhile to train to eat other things I have a large tessalata eel now that I am having that issue with but eventually it to will eat its natural diet..

What are you feeding it? Anyone have suggestions on diet?

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
With a juvenile (under 4'' body length) it should be fed a very small amount daily.
Skipping a day every once in awhile won't hurt, but remember to never feed more than what will produce a slight bulge in the abdomen.

Are you gut loading the Ghost Shrimp before offering them as food?

I like to feed chunks of shrimp with the shell (provides calcium) to lions and other large predators; strips of marine fish flesh are also good for the diet.

Ed

Can you elaborate on what exactly is "GUT LOADING"?

Thanks.

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
An accidental stinging would be bad and is always a possibility, however there are many more reasons not to feed any predator by hand.

In the case of lions, they have a grasping row of teeth like cartilage that can tear your skin.
In that case a bacterial infection is a possibility.
Next is the contaminants that our natural oils and bacteria from our skin that may pass on to our fish.

In the case of fish with larger teeth, such as a moray species, I have witnessed a shopkeeper have two fingers skinned and sliced in a flash.

These fish don't love or appreciate us, they only recognize a food source and if your fingers get in the way, then so be it...

Be careful,
Ed

Funny that his comes up. I found this the other day. Another reason NOT to hand feed.

Not for the faint of heart...
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...olonial+hilton

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by EdKruzel
Yes, any of the light bodied shrimp have very little nutrition and greatly benefit from being gut loaded.

I would make a mash of Cyclopeeze, nori, shredded table shrimp, DT's w/oyster and some Selcon.

Eat until full and place in the main tank.
It is a similar diet that I used on the grouper in my gallery which had vibrant coloration.

Ed

What is DT's w/ oysters? Sorry for all the questions....still learning all the acronyms and abbreviations on this board; but taking notes...lol.

Thanks

[MeskeetDog]

Originally posted by BRabbitC
When I lived out west I used to catch Cray fish for them. That was out of the Pacific but I don't want to buy cray fish here. I'll have to look around and see what I can find. I really, really don't want to feed them only frozen fish. Maybe I can get some frozen uncooked shrimp on sale in the grocery Store or something to insert instead of a dozen a wk.

Think it would be okay to give them a dozen small Goldfish once a month or so?

Ive wondered that too. How about Crawfish/Crawdads for puffers and eels etc? You get the calcium from the shell and help wear down the beak too. But the nutritional value Im not so sure about. Crawfish you can get cheaper (maybe even free) than lobster and other similar species right?

[EdKruzel]

Wow, that's a bunch of questions since my absence, I hope to answer them all.

HUFA = Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acids.

Glass and Ghost shrimp are usually the same being that is a common name and not the species name.

Gut loading is when you take a live food item such as the glass shrimp (which have no real nutritional value) and allow them to stuff themselves eating as much of a good food source as possible and then feeding them to your livestock.

DT's is a brand of phytoplankton that is a valuable for many of the creatures we keep.

I'm not sure about crawfish, I'd rather stick to shellfish or clams from the seafood deli to ensure the proper nutrients and not adding saturated fats as with fresh water fish. Saturated fats cannot be digested properly by marine fish.

[anbosu]

I live in Florida and one of the best things for my tank has been live bait. You can usually buy 5 dozen live shrimp for $4 or so and then freeze what you don't feed immediately. My fish also enjoy cut frozen squid and pretty much anything else I put in there. I have a lionfish, lunare wrasse, six line soapfish, and snowflake moray eel and they all eat all of these plus formuala one and other prepared frozen foods.

Oh yeah, and any crabs or snails I try to add to the tank also.

[alanbetty]

I also have a Fuzzy Dwraf Lionfish. I have been feeding him live freshwater feeded fish about 3x a week. I tried the fish flesh on a feeding stick without success. Now he won't even look @ the live fish. Any suggestions or comments?

[alanbetty]

I also have a DFL that only would eat freshwater feeder fish. He has been eating them 3x a week for about a month. Now when offered them he will not even look at them. I also tried the fresh fish on a stick idea with no avail. Any suggestions or help would be appreciater.

[EdKruzel]

Squid and Octopus are not highly recommended because of the oily content in thier flesh that will decrease your skimmers efficiency. There are many other foods available that will equal or exceed their nutritional levels.

alanbetty,
I highly recommend you read this topic from the first page on; you'll read how bad fresh water species are for saltwater fish. I'd let them settle for a minimum of three days before attempting to feed anything.

[nightime]

good luck

[bobparker]

great article thanks

[bzuka]

i haven't predators for the present what kinds of would you advice me to get

[EdKruzel]

I wouldn't advise anyone without details on the system to be used and the hobbyist's experience.

There are certainly too many "predators" in all classes of the hobby to generalize without details.

Smaller systems can support Pseudochromis, Leaf Fish and Frogfish as an example, but very large systems are needed for Sharks, Snappers, Groupers and Pilot Jacks.

[acoff87]

very interesting thread!
i too live in florida and am an avid fishermen(i know hurting fish - bad).
I often cast net live bait such as pilchard, mullet, mojhara, pinfish, grunt, etc. As well as catch blue crab.
Would there be anything negative about using any of the above
live/frozen as feeders.
My main concern is parasites from fresh or live food items, but would this risk be eliminated if i freeze everything prior to feeding?
Also what about left over scraps from the fillet table?

[EdKruzel]

If you're the one doing the filleting, then sure. Just be sure it wasn't something sitting in the sun all day, fresh is best.

If parasites are a concern and the fish will accept frozen (prepared foods) then that's the way to go. Otherwise you can go with a "FreshWater" dip before using the live.

[acoff87]

i would be doing the filleting, i dont like wasting any thing. i often feed my mantis shrimp fish scraps and rib meat. i figured it would be safe for the fish, just wanted a second opinion.

[Everyones Hero]

I've had my juvenile Zebra Lion for just over a week now. She won't eat. I've tried krill (which I heard can cause lockjaw after the fact), mysis, blood worms, brine shrimp, oyster & silversides, including whole, half, & just the heads rolled in garlic. Tonight I even tried a Golden Barb (FW fish that swims near the bottom of the tank.)

The 1st night it seemed to go after 1 piece of mysis, which I know is nowhere near enough to fill her up.

She started moving around & acted like she was stalking when I tried the oyster, but she was stalking a different part of the tank.

Tonight I added the Barb & it swam right at the bottom in the current of the powerhead just below where the lion was perched. The lion swam off, came back, then went away again. I filled a 5g bucket with SW from the tank, added the lion, then added the FW fish again. It paid NO interest to it. Again it seemed to stalk/attack but it was towards open water.

I'm going to say the body is about .5-.75" wide & the head is about twice as wide.

I'm waiting for the ghost shrimp to come in so I can try those. I know a week isn't very long, but I don't know when the fish last ate & I don't want it to starve.

[EdKruzel]

Juveniles can be very hard to start and the glass shrimp (gut loaded) are best to use; krill are okay once the fish begin to take prepared foods as long as you soak them in a vitamin supplement first.

Observing the body is how to determine health/need to to eat. Juvies are naturally thin, but if the abdominal region looks pinched, then it is imperative they eat.

Be careful that in your attempts you don't add so much food to the water column that it becomes waste and fouls the water. Lions are not true aggressive predators, they're ambush predators on prey small enough to fit in its mouth. If you have boisterous tankmates, it may keep the lion from feeding. Placing the lion in a bucket is also very stressful and will not help either.

[Everyones Hero]

So it is okay to feed krill? I heard it could cause lockjaw.

Most of the uneaten food gets pulled out or the Nass snails get it.

It's the only fish in a 55g (soon to be 75g.) I'm not adding anything else until it's eating & I know it's healthy.