Pedal laceration in Gigantea

[Dan]

After re-reading this thread and thinking about it some more, I do not believe a pathogen is involved. It recovered in QT without antibiotics. That is what changed my mind. Beuchat also has a haddoni and crispa in the same DT. They also got "sick" when the new gig was introduced. Looks more and more like anemone warfare. Over the years, I have also tried mixed anemone species tanks. Sometimes you just cannot put certain individuals together. As a general rule, different species of the same genus seem to be compatible, while species from different genus not so much. Again, in general. Individuals may vary, with E. quadricolor as a wildcard. Presently, I have H. crispa, H.magnifica, E.quadricolor together for years and doing great. Have tried to add a gig only to have all get "sick". Removal of the gig returned the others to normal. I tried this mix twice with the same result. That gig now resides in it's own tank, recovering without antibiotics. In the past, however, I lost a gig trying to mix, not realizing what was happening.

Is there anyone out there who is successfully keeping Heteractis and Stichodactyla together just fine for years? Please post.

Beuchat - How large is your display tank? What else is in there? Maybe remove the other anemones, do a large water change in the DT, then return the gig to the DT. Also, how is the water flow? Maybe put the circulating pump from QT next to the gig in the DT. It seems to like it.

Dan

[BonsaiNut]

Dan I'm not sure I agree with you. First, he is using water from his DT in his QT, so if there are chemicals in the DT, wouldn't they also be in the QT? Additionally, the kind of behavior he is describing with his gigantea has been observed in other tanks that contain only giganteas... in other words, a tank with one or more healthy giganteas, and a third gigantea is added and the new anemone starts to decline even when two others are doing well in the same environment.

[Dan]

I believe the water in QT is changed frequently to control ammonia, so any irritants would be diluted quickly. True about multiple gigs. Its just that from a biological perspective, pathogenic infections do not behave this way. Puzzling. If we were experimenting, removing the other anemones, then adding the new gig back to DT would be the thing to test. Not sure what else Beuchat can try, other than set up another tank for the new gig. Then maybe try mixing again in a few months. Sure is amazing to see the recovery that gig makes when removed from DT, with or without antibiotics.

Dan

[beuchat]

Weel I am not sure. I think there is a possible "chemical" interaction between them. Maybe when introducing new anemones, the bacteria is transfered to existing nems already in the tank.

In my case the crispa was not looking very good before introducing the mag, and the hadonni was introduced at same time, so aclimatation problems are mixed with the theory of pathogen transfer or allelopathy.

I will keep going in same direction since I want to keep them together and I descart a complete water change.

The tank contains some sps and some LPS and the hadonni (the crispa I returned to the LFS to avoid more "influences" in the situation)

So let´s see how it goes when returned back to DT next week. I am using DT water mixed with antibiotic, changed every 48 hours. In last three days the gig is not so big as used in QT (but looks healthy). I will post pics tonight.

Thanks for your inputs!

[BonsaiNut]

Originally Posted by Dan

Puzzling.

Agreed. And I certainly don't have any answers, I am just talking out loud.

One thing that I have wondered about is the presence of reproductive "matter" in the water. It has been noted that when stressed, these anemones will sometimes spawn. Because both S. gigantea and S. haddoni are synchronous spawners, there is a possibility that one stressed anemone continues to release sperm or eggs or other signaling chemicals into the water as it inflates and deflates, possibly causing other anemones stress or triggering inflation/deflation among the other anemones present.

Maybe spawning behavior by one species triggers defensive chemicals from another? (Now I am just hypothesizing widely)

[Dan]

Originally Posted by BonsaiNut

Agreed. And I certainly don't have any answers, I am just talking out loud.............

............Maybe spawning behavior by one species triggers defensive chemicals from another? (Now I am just hypothesizing widely)

I am only speculating as well. Since we do not perform controlled experiments, all we can do is compile our observations and hope to eventually be able to draw some more definitive conclusions. And your hypothesis is actually correct. Corals will release defensive chemicals in response to detecting other corals' chemicals (including reproductive chemicals). This has been documented during the annual spawning event. I have read this in a scientific journal, but cannot now remember where (maybe Science?).

Dan

[beuchat]

Today's pic, in QT with antibiotic:

[deangelr]

Excellent work with this anemoen beuchat.. This is serious dedication

[5Starreef]

Today, I got a Gigantea from my LFS. It did not look good in the LFS tank, it was deflated but I wanted to give it a try. Following the steps of Beuchat , It is in a QT tank with antibiotics like he did and explain in this thread.

I don´t want to jailbreak his treat , if beauchat doesn´t mind I will post my
experience here.

Thanks for this good information

[beuchat]

That's fine

The more experiences we have the better
Conclusions we can reach

[5Starreef]

The first picture was yesterday at 7 PM. As soon as I arrived from the LFS, I put it in a 6 Gal QT and antibiotic. It is not a good picture but as we can look at the stomach is outside down and it was deflate.



The second picture was taken today at 10 AM, after a water change from DT with antibiotic. It was looking much more better.



This picture is right now at 9 PM. I am doing a water change and adding new antibiotic. I didnt get its mouth in the picture but it was close, and it is inflated and looking better.

[elegance coral]

Thanks to both of you for documenting your experiments.


5stareef,
What antibiotics are you using? What dosage are you using? When you change water and add more antibiotics, are you just adding the percentage that you remove with the water change, or how are you handling this?

[OrionN]

Originally Posted by beuchat

Well, the antibiotic is cloramfenicol, I am afraid it is forbiden in the United States, in fact is toxic for humans so even it is no longer used in veterinary. The dosage is 50 mg/l of pure cloramfenicol (white powder)

.....

Please becareful with cloramfenicol. The reson it is not in use anymore is that ti can cause aplastic anemia (complet failure of the bone marrow) which is fatal if not treat with bone marrow transplant. I was suprise that you can get it until I saw that you are from Spain

[papa_dog]

Wow, amazing thread and amazing dedication.

Thank you for documenting it (I'll be following along) and good luck.

Cheers,
K.

[OrionN]

5Starreef, h
Please indicate which antibiotic and dosing regiment, how much/how you dose it. That would help a lot, especially if your anemone end up doing well

[5Starreef]

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay

I am dosing Baytril 136Mg tablets. The QT is 6 Gal tank , I put 1/8 of the tablet every water change. I am doing water changes every 12 hours. Every water change is a full new 6 gal of water from the DT. I put the older 6 gal water in a bucket with bleach to kill the rest of the antibiotic.

This picture was taken the second day in the morning during the water change.


The anemone was throwing small black things during the treatment, as we can see in the last picture.

This picture was taken after 4 hours from the morning water change.


This one was taken about 9 PM. I notice a lot of improvement at this time.
We can also see my setup:


There are two Koralias one 3 and one 1 working alternatively. The other pump is to take the water out for the water changes. It is also a heater. I am keeping the temperature at 79º. The anemone is in a basket to be sure it is not going to the Ks. Also I was monitoring my PH, all the time was between 8.1-8.2. I am using a APEX.

This is a picture of the 3rd day in the afternoon:


The next two pictures are from today at 2 PM 2 hours before to put it in the display Tank:



Now in the DT. It is still in the basket because I dont want to remove its base from the basket, I rather to get it acclimates in the basket and remove it later.


I was also monitoring the ammonia during the treatment.

[beuchat]

Hi,

After 10 days in the QT with antibiotics these are the pics:





I have removed him from QT and placed in DT. The specific gravity was 1024 in QT and 1025 in DT so he tends to float, I needed to put a small weight on him in order to avoid a dangerous free swimming.

Please note in the following pic the brown staff wich remained in QT. This are rest of previous ingested food. I believe the infection begins with bacteria attached to this "rotten food" and the anemone needs to get rid of them in order to recover (this is the reason he opens the mouth)



I will keep updating.

I am happy to hear that the procedure seems to have worked in 5starreef's case.

Now we need to achieve a total recuperation in DT!.

[jeffreylesser]

Originally Posted by 5Starreef

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay

I am dosing Baytril 136Mg tablets. The QT is 6 Gal tank , I put 1/8 of the tablet every water change. I am doing water changes every 12 hours. Every water change is a full new 6 gal of water from the DT. I put the older 6 gal water in a bucket with bleach to kill the rest of the antibiotic.

I want to do the math here to be sure. You are using 1/8 of a Baytril(enrofloxacin) 136 Mg tablet. So 136/8 = 17Mg per 6 gallons, or 2.83 Mg a gallon. If that is correct, that is a significantly lower dose than I was using. I was up around 20Mg a gallon. Your anemone looked better at the end than mine did in "QT" for sure. FWIW the gigantea you are working with appears to be a lot smaller than the other two as well. Im not sure what conclusions to draw. Interesting. I wish you continued success in your DT. Please keep us posted.

[5Starreef]

Originally Posted by jeffreylesser

I want to do the math here to be sure. You are using 1/8 of a Baytril(enrofloxacin) 136 Mg tablet. So 136/8 = 17Mg per 6 gallons, or 2.83 Mg a gallon. If that is correct, that is a significantly lower dose than I was using. I was up around 20Mg a gallon. Your anemone looked better at the end than mine did in "QT" for sure. FWIW the gigantea you are working with appears to be a lot smaller than the other two as well. Im not sure what conclusions to draw. Interesting. I wish you continued success in your DT. Please keep us posted.

My Gigantea is about 5-6 inches.
The first and the second day I was dosing 1/8 tablet for 5 gal.
The third day I was dosing 2/8 per 6 gal.
The 4rd day at 8 am I saw the anemone was not doing well, it was inflated but its mouth was open, at this point I change the full water for water of the DT, I did not add the antibiotic. Immediately the anemone inflated in full and close its mouth. I left the anemone in the QT until 4 Pm then I put it in the DT.
The anemone was throwing the brown/black staff that beuchat was talking about in his last post, during all the treatment, when I was adding 2/8 the anemone was throwing a lot more of the brown/black staff.


This is how it looks today. I try to have the clowns away for a while, but as soon as the light went on they were hosting it.




In my case I saw that the anemone was much better the second day that the following days, but the last two day was throwing more black staff from his mouth than the days before.

The anemone was not expose at lights at any time during the treatment.

I think the anemone is not fully recover, it is all the time inflated, but sometimes is a 100% at sometimes at 75%. We will see how this is going...

[jeffreylesser]

Without the lights, some of the expelled matter was probably zooxanthellae. I saw this in the anemone I was trying to QT. There is probably not much of an option here as most antibiotics break down in UV light(Enrofoxacin included). I am sure it probably has happened with other anemone I have QT'd in the past, but myself I usually use a larger system(20 gallon) with some filtration, so the expelled matter is not as noticeable as it is in these small containers. Good Luck.

[beuchat]

Hi guys,

Today's videos of the s. gigantea back in DT after 24 hours reintroduction . Also you can see the s. hadonni present already in the tank. Both of them look inflated and healty, sorry for the low quality (I needed to reduce the size of the files).

Maybe I won the battle?






I hope they will continue like this! . I am slowly getting crazy taking care of my anemone with bipolar disorder....

[deangelr]

I hope so too Beuchat! for your sake haha

[deangelr]

Is enroflaxin as effective as chloramfenicol? Seems like this stuff would be helpfull for us dedicated anemone keepers

[Winwood]

Man I have been follwing this thread from the beginning and am in utter amazement! Recently I tried to rescue an ailing gigantea using similar methods but was unable to obtain a sufficient amount of Baytril. I was able to retrieve a tiny amont from a friend who had some left over from when he had to treat some of his birds. I used this in the initial treatment which yielded similar results to what both of you have documented. However, I was unable to retreat the specimen after the first water change and the anemone recessed and eventually passed.

My question is two fold;
1. Is there more commonly available antibiotics that may produce similar results? and
2. How does someone obtain baytril from a veterenarian or other source without first injecting their dog or cat with a terrible bacterial infection? I called 5 vet offices and none of them would sell me the product despite a lengthy and detailed explanation of what I was using it for.

[OrionN]

Baytril is a floroquinolne that only use in pets here in the US. Similar medications that use in human is Cipro (used a lot in chicken feed). Use a floroquinolone for human from your doctor would be OK I think.