Warner Marine K series Cone skimmer Review !!!!!

[Gondore]

I find it very entertaining that most of the individuals posting on this thread giving Mojo a hard time either own or sell ATB skimmers. Based on what I have seen the comparison between the WM and the ATB seems to be a very logical one....except in one area....price.

[LunarDDS]

All of this clone hating would be a non-issue if the ideas were protected by a patent. Yes, I know there is a patent out there for cone skimmers but obviously it is not or cannot be enforced in this instance. In the end, the addition of more cone skimmers in the market will be better for the end users. Prices will drop and innovation will continue to compete for our business. Mojo seems to be overhyping this skimmer just as Mr. ATB seems to be very nervous about the competition. The ATB followers have been alerted and now you see the crap flooding begin. Don't hate- propogate. LOL People will still buy BMW's even though an Acura is out there. Same goes for the skimmer market.

[Creetin]

Originally posted by LunarDDS
All of this clone hating would be a non-issue if the ideas were protected by a patent. Yes, I know there is a patent out there for cone skimmers but obviously it is not or cannot be enforced in this instance. In the end, the addition of more cone skimmers in the market will be better for the end users. Prices will drop and innovation will continue to compete for our business. Mojo seems to be overhyping this skimmer just as Mr. ATB seems to be very nervous about the competition. The ATB followers have been alerted and now you see the crap flooding begin. Don't hate- propogate. LOL People will still buy BMW's even though an Acura is out there. Same goes for the skimmer market.

That all sounds good, But why innovate and spend time reasearch and money when someone will just rip it off and sell it?
I am in for cheaper goods, But at what price? We will lose the innovators and have a bunch of clones. Sea clones. LOL

[LunarDDS]

The only protection they have is a patent. Name calling and negative forum threads will not prevent knock offs. In this particular instance it is a win/win for all involved. Lets say the cone becomes the next great innovation. Everyone dumps there cylinders for cones. All the makers will make more than they are currently. I feel bad for the companies out there. They are trying hard to run a business and put food on the table for their families. A bunch of guys sitting on the couch with a laptop watching the algae grow in their tank with one hand on an air meter are making or breaking them. Kinda sad really. The market will ultimately drive what becomes of all this.

btw - I actually talked my lfs into carrying the warner line so I could get ahold of the cone. I didn't care so much about the cone but I am excited about the bubble ring. I liked the fact that the man has an idea and thinks he has an answer. That is the most important aspect of his cone skimmer. I'm pretty sure the ring will be on other bodies also but I wanted the cone bacause of the vbt.

[leonel04]

Well I'm the new guy with little experience, but one thing that get's me is how people get upset when someone compare their product with others, it's obvious we all compare products before we buy them. Look at Auto Racing for example, NASCAR, INDY,ETC., very rarely the most expensive car wins.. I know it..... Keep reefing and spent your money the way you like.....

Thanks..
Leo..

[leonel04]

mojo46825,
Thanks for all the info....

[uhuru]

Originally posted by Gondore
I find it very entertaining that most of the individuals posting on this thread giving Mojo a hard time either own or sell ATB skimmers. Based on what I have seen the comparison between the WM and the ATB seems to be a very logical one....except in one area....price.

what comparison? he doesn't even have an ATB to compare to, all I see are a couple of cheap shots at ATB with a disclaimer afterwards about how he doesn't mean to badmouth other brands ... kinda shady if you ask me. Yes, I'm an ATB owner, but it's not the one and only skimmer I've ever owned. I'm actually excited to see how this WM cone performs. I sincerely hope that it adds another great option for people. Unfortunately this review has lost all credibility to me. The OP is obviously overly excited and thus his judgment is biased.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by rhoptowit
seems like whenever i come back to this thread the creditability of the review dwindles.

That happened for me before this thread started, he ran around every forum on RC hyping a reveiw, but the weird thing was even before getting the skimmer he aready jumping to conclusions as if he had alloready tested it. Just like in this thred lots of jumping to conclusions.

I just think the manic skimmer reveiw threads do very little to help anyone, take your time mojo were not going anywhere

[rishma]

While I always enjoy reviews of new products, most people have a hard time providing objective unbiased information. People get passionate about a product and unfortunately loose credibility even when they may have some valid points to make.

I own an H&S skimmer, so I dont have a dog in this hunt; however, I am very disappointed by the weak comparisons to another companies products. It takes away from the validity of the other information presented here.

Mojo - do everyone a favor, share your information about the new WM skimmer. Let it stand on its own merit. dont degrade the thread or your own credibility by trying to show that this skimmer is better than other available skimmers. Let people draw their own conclusions.

cheers

[my2girls]

Where do I start...People need to lighten up a little. I believe Mojo is trying his best to be fair. I see a hobbyist who enjoys the equipment aspect of reefing. A hobby within a hobby? He's not trying to sell WM skimmers nor bad-mouth others.

I do think the ATB Eco is a better comparison, but it's not even out yet.

Also, Most of us oversize our skimmers (some more than others), so there probably is no real difference in performance on a 75/90 gallon tank. I'm pretty sure that you could put 20 different skimmers on his tank and most would pull the same amount of crud. That's why I really don't get the air meter and what not. WM K2, ATB med, ATB Eco, BK Minis, OctoX/MSX, will all skim the same on his tank and most others. IMO So the only REAL difference is price, build quality, customer service, and energy rating.

IMO built in the USA is important. I have a foreign car and foreign reef equipment. I sold my German skimmer and have a US model on order. I'm going to replace my German lights with US lights. I don't want to get too off topic but in this economy we need to keep Americans working.

Sorry Mojo, get back to your review.

BTW- it's hard for Mojo to do a comprehensive review at this point because the skimmer is not even broken in yet.

[tufacody]

Ya know, everyone says ATB is the superior skimmer, but except for a handful of people that post here why does everyone assume this is still true in the wake of two brand spankin new cone skimmers, neither of which have been tested enough to compare? I find it jaw-dropping that we have so many assertions about ATB's superiority, especially from ATB themselves, when 99% of the people that post here haven't even seen a SWC cone or a WM cone.

Seriously people, being more expensive does not make it better. The whole idea is the cone and the pump. So far I have seen very little evidence of any cone's superiority. Until I see that why wouldn't I spend the least I could?

ATB, time to put up or shut up. Convince me you are the better cone instead of just saying it, and you will have my money.

[Jim_S]

Originally posted by tufacody
Seriously people, being more expensive does not make it better.

You can say the same about buying something cheap too. Just because you paid less doesn't make it better In fact, I'd say most of the time you'll find the cheaper product to be inferior in many ways. Much more so than the other way around I'd say How does the old saying go" "Buy cheap, buy twice"?

Originally posted by tufacody
ATB, time to put up or shut up. Convince me you are the better cone instead of just saying it, and you will have my money.

The fact that you are even interested in a cone skimmer should be enough reason for you to know which one is better. If ATB had come out with a junker, all these knock-offs would not even be around.....

The bottom line is that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. You are all sitting here talking about ATB skimmers in a knock-off thread because they have in fact set the bench mark in conical skimmers, and all these copies are just trying to replicate the performance of a tried and true winner. If ATB hadn't pioneered the cone/bubble plate/pinwheel skimmer, none of us would even be talking about this. John Warner obviously didn't see value in cones until Anton, Victor and ATB came around the states.

I do very much agree with Creetin's post though. There is no longer as much money involved in innovation and all these copies will eventually hinder it. Why would companies spend all the money developing a working product when someone is just going to take their idea and undercut them because they spent less on R&D? Or have the parts built in China and assembled here? It is more profitable to just take a real winner's ideas and copy them. People like the Tunze family, Anton and even Klaus have brought major innovation to the hobby, but people keep trying to rip off their ideas. Sure its good for the folks who can't afford the real deal, but for the people who are innovating? Not so much

I'm not saying these or other copies don't work or do work or whatever, but in the end they are just copies of a winning design. Thats why you are all comparing them to ATB's, because that is the goal. To make them work as well as ATB conical skimmers.

[jamesdawson]

I'd like to temporarily interrupt this flame war.

I think we need to give Hahnmeister some credit here in bringing ATB and their cones over to the US because without his efforts it either wouldn't have happened or it would have taken longer. He should get equal credit in breaking Royal Exclusiv's monopoly on Askoll based skimmer pumps and even some credit in the getting more companies to use the Sicces.

And while we are at it lets contemplate where we would be if RE had patented the bubbleplate, we probably wouldn't ever have this VBT technology or a lot of other great skimmers. If you wanted a bubbleplate skimmer be prepared to pay RE up the wazoo which would have excluded myself and most reefers I know. Not to mention the controversy over RE's claim to have also invented the conical skimmer so I guess RE is a whopping 0 for 2 in patenting these great technologies and subsequently charging whatever the market will bear.

Personally I'd rather have more choices then less choices and I'm glad to live in the USA! Go WM and mojo's review of it.

Feel free now to resume your regularly scheduled flame war and I'm wondering if RE and others are going to flame me now

James

[Warner Marine]

Originally posted by Jim_S
The bottom line is that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. You are all sitting here talking about ATB skimmers in a knock-off thread because they have in fact set the bench mark in conical skimmers, and all these copies are just trying to replicate the performance of a tried and true winner. If ATB hadn't pioneered the cone/bubble plate/pinwheel skimmer, none of us would even be talking about this. John Warner obviously didn't see value in cones until Anton, Victor and ATB came around the states.

The cone skimmer was first described and built by Bubble King in 2004. Several prototypes were sold late in 2004, these BK cones were discussed and pictured on German forums at that time. The "other" cones soon followed. Would you like me to post the pictures of the BK cone from 2004? Klaus doesn't seem too upset about the cone skimmers that followed... he says he abandoned the cone skimmer because the SM series worked better.

Evolution occurs in every technological field... Microsoft didn't INVENT the PC Operating System.

Porsche didn't INVENT the car.

Bubble King didn't INVENT the protein skimmer.

But all 3 of these companies have REDEFINED the INVENTION.

Or have the parts built in China and assembled here?

K Series skimmers are 100% MADE IN THE USA by Americans, machined right here in Southern California, CAD files programmed here, and assembled in the USA of course... even uses American gate valves, PVC and acrylic stock. Even the little rubber feet are custom molded in MICHIGAN.

The pump is from Italy and that's the part that's "travelled" the most.

It is more profitable to just take a real winner's ideas and copy them. People like the Tunze family, Anton and even Klaus have brought major innovation to the hobby, but people keep trying to rip off their ideas. Sure its good for the folks who can't afford the real deal, but for the people who are innovating? Not so much

REAL innovations are NEW ideas. The K Series has TWO real innovations, the VBT of course... and another that will not be public until release, we're still filing some legal documents.

I will not reply further in this thread, visit our sponsor forum to learn more. It was just necessary to clear up the disinformation.

[victor90]

dp

[GSMguy]

that is if you beleive klauss, Jon the pictures of RE's cone were taken In2008 not 04, it was not until 08 did klauss mention that he sold some cones in 04. He also says red dragons are not based on standard laguna pumps, even after anton called him on it in german forums. Jon you can't just go around calling your copy BETTER and not expect anyone to comment.

[Freed]

Mojo, where did you get the mod to make the Eheim 1260 a venturi pump?

[johnnyblaze313]

[QUOTE] Would you like me to post the pictures of the BK cone from 2004?

I would like to see it just to see what she looked like, if it's not to much trouble can you post a pic? or a link.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by Freed
Mojo, where did you get the mod to make the Eheim 1260 a venturi pump?

That's a siccce 2500 not an eheim

[Freed]

I thought I read in the first couple pages about an Eheim 1260, could be wrong though. k

[frenchie]

this is a great thread, all this excitement from one guy who spent his own money on a skimmer he really wanted, can't wait to see when everyone else gets theres to see some more reviews from everyone else.

[sjm817]

Its interesting how it seems OK that others use (copy) the BK bubble plate, and the copy of the BK skimmer pump is also not viewed as a problem. Maybe even the original cone design as well. It seems who "copies" what and the view on it is very selective.

As far as Sicces go, Hahn has gone out of his way many times to post how much he doesn't like them. It would seem unlikely he had much to do with the adoption of them by more mfgrs. Others who posted how bad they dont seem to be so vocal about it now that ATB uses them.

As far as performance goes, I would venture that the models being discussed here would be extremely close since they are all very similar in design.

It nice nice to see that WM is building their skimmers here in the USA especially these days when it seems nothing is built here any longer.

[frenchie]

Originally posted by sjm817


It nice nice to see that WM is building their skimmers here in the USA.

+1

[Freed]

Originally posted by mojo46825
Here is a pic of what the ATB is pulling with the Eheim 1260. Not that it matters but it appear to meto be about 12 or 13 lpm, I just know that there are a lot of people that might wonder how these compare, It is the best I can do with the what Iinformation I have. I ll take some more pics when when I get home. But I hope you all are finding some good reading here. And enjoy a premium built product made right here in the US.

[jamesdawson]

Your talking about the Dwyer meter Freed?

I just ordered an RMC 103 SSV. Its the large size with 1/2" inlet/outlet so it will have the least amount of air restriction of the dwyers. The 103 model has a range of 20-200 SCHFT so it will keep the readings of the Askolls close to the middle of the scale. The SSV means the adjusting valve is stainless. $103 direct from Dwyer.

James